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First id like to say hi.im new here.i really need help.i would like to say i did post this prob on another fish help forum,but,most of my replies were saying how bad my grammar was,they even wrote out my topic how it should have been done,paragraphs,full stops etc.hope its not like that here.lol.here is my problem.4yrs ago we brought an octagonal 5ft column fish tank.After we set it up we mainly went for catfish.We had 1 upside down catfish,1 pectus catfish,1 corydora,(spelling not sure about),1 clown loach,1 red tailed shark,1 hipostomus plec(not sure of spelling)+1 pekoltia plec.within 1 week the clown loach died.But we managed to keep the rest for 4yrs without any problem.We really wanted to get rid of column tank as it was awkward if we needed to do part water changes,and we couldn't really put anymore fish in it than we already had,and we really wanted to get more.also,the hipostomus plec was rapidly growing,and we didn't realise how big and fast he would grow,(the peckoltia stayed quite small).even the other fish,apart from corydora,grew large,id say,between 4 and 7 inches big for each 1.all fish were rapidly outgrowing tank. Then we had chance to buy a 5ftx3ftx3ft tank we jumped at the chance and as our fish were very well established,we thought they would be ok.We were so,so wrong!! One thing,the tank we brought was used as a marine tank previously,there was everything needed,external filter,and all marine things,not sure what they were. We cleaned tank extremely well,as it was an ex marine tank,we didn't know whether it would affect it as we were using it for tropical.When it was all set up,the fish settled in very well.So after about 6 weeks,we went and brought 1 siamese fighter,at the same time we brought some real plants.Then after a couple more days,instead of having an air stone,we set up an air curtain all along the back of the tank.We then waited about 1 week and brought 5 neons and 5 mollies,that is,when things started to really go wrong.The day after getting the neons,1 neon was dead by next morning,we thought perhaps it was stress due to being moved from the shop.But within a couple of hours,2 more neons died.By that time we had started panicking. Before the end of that day,the corydora died.that was shocking as none of our fish,from original tank,had ever shown signs of illness ever.By the next day all of the neons had died. But over the next 2 or 3 days,every single fish in the tank apart from the big plec,were showing signs of illness. First, our shark was swimming funny.It was like he was drunk,he was full of,a rash,load of white spots,so assuming white spot,added a treatment.But within 24 hour he was dead. Then was our pectus catfish,she kind of rotted,she looked really bad.it really looked was like she was rotting away.Also, it was as though she went mad.She kept bashing into things,again like she was drunk.And she kept diving into glass.She died that very day. Then there was the upside down catfish,He had same sort of symtoms,apart from she had white fur stuff by her gills.She also looked slimy. I will just add,every single one of the fish was also lerthagic,just stayed in same place,kept going onto their side,and staying there and looked like they struggled to breathe,a couple of them even got a curve in their backs,which was not there before,and going to top of tank to kind of get air.The very same day our upside down catfish started getting symptoms,she died.The fighter really did look awful,he lost all his colour nearly,his fins rotted away till he had literally nothing there,the same lerthargic behavior,he then died.The plecs still looked healthy,and we were doing everything we could to stop them dying.We religously did the treatments,as we were told to do,as told to us by an aquarium shop.(not same shop we had got neons and mollys).We assumed it was over and rest of the fish would be ok.Wrong.The peckoltia since we had him,stayed in a castle,but he started staying out all time,i noticed he was getting chubby,but assumed he was growing.It was my hubby who said he just didn't look right and he said he thought he was bloated,we went back to the aquarium shop,he assured us that we could do no more than we were doing.But next day he was on his back.He had died!.So,out of all our fish,all we had left at that point was,3 mollies and our big plec!!2 of the mollys have had babies.They had over 20 between them.All have died. 1 molly is very bloated,1 has fins rotting,and all have white speckle spots on them.then our plec started rotting to.He had cloudy eyes,fins nearly gone,lethargic,kept going to top as if gasping for air.He just stayed still.He looked awful,and as he was the last of our original fish left,we desperatly wanted to save him.unfortunatly he died yesterday and we are heartbroken,i really wanted him to be ok.the way things are going,we will end up will no fish at all.Im sorry if this is going on to much,but i thought id give you as much info as i could,i may have missed something,so please feel free to question me further.I will also add,all this has happened in less that 2 weeks.One of mollies gave birth last night and there are now over 20 more babies.Thankyou all so much for reading this and any help will be very much appreciated.i know this will sound very sad,but they all had personalities.im heartbroken after having fish all this time and less than 2wks of illness and all wiped out.i will do another post with water environmental data,my hubby has got everything written down,and ill have to get of him later.we got an external filter,i will also put the name of it in next post.thankyou

It could be the neons brought a disease. You should quarantine all new fish in another tank for a couple weeks to rule out illnesses before adding them to an established tank. Thing is all the symptoms are generally secondary signs of something bigger. You have signs of an opportunistic parasite(ich), various bacterial infections, and possibly fungus. All these generally come from a primary cause such as poor water quality and stress. The former often the complete cause of the latter. Did you keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate during this time? Even if the tank cycled well the first time when you moved the old fish over adding 5 mollies and neons at the same time could have pushed it over the edge while it was just barely finished. Ammonia would also explain the 2week time period for all the deaths. It takes about that long to get through a mini cycle from stocking a tank too quickly. What is your water change routine? Gravel vacs?

Heres the text edited so that it can be more easily read. I have inserted text in bold to highlight the problems as they come up.

Here is my problem.4yrs ago we brought an octagonal 5ft column fish tank. After we set it up we mainly went for catfish.

Octagonal tanks , often low on surface area, thus low proportionate oxygenation, you have to keep them with minimal stocking. Low oxygenation will keep the fish immuno surpressed meaning that disease spreads very quickly and recovory rates are poor , as we shall see.

We had 1 upside down catfish,1 pictus catfish,1 corydora,,1 clown loach,1 red tailed shark,1 hypostomus plec and 1 pekoltia plec. Within 1 week the clown loach died. But we managed to keep the rest for 4yrs without any problem. We really wanted to get rid of column tank as it was awkward if we needed to do part water changes, and we couldn't really put anymore fish in it than we already had, and we really wanted to get more, also, the hypostomus plec was rapidly growing, and we didn't realise how big and fast he would grow,(the peckoltia stayed quite small).even the other fish, apart from corydora, grew large ,id say, between 4 and 7 inches big for each 1.all fish were rapidly outgrowing tank. Then we had chance to buy a 5ftx3ftx3ft tank we jumped at the chance and as our fish were very well established, we thought they would be ok.

Not checking adult sizes of the species you intend to keep, overstocking to much with immature fish etc. Plus possible overfeeding results in large and fast growth, and often water quality hell. Its beginning there, with a lack of planning. Thankfully the new tank should have been big enough, but the fish may have suffered developmental issues.


We were so, wrong!! One thing, the tank we brought was used as a marine tank previously, there was everything needed, external filter, and all marine things, not sure what they were. We cleaned tank extremely well, as it was an ex marine tank, we didn't know whether it would affect it as we were using it for tropical. When it was all set up, the fish settled in very well. So after about 6 weeks, we went and brought 1 Siamese fighter, at the same time we brought some real plants. Then after a couple more days, instead of having an air stone, we set up an air curtain all along the back of the tank. We then waited about 1 week and brought 5 neon’s and 5 mollies, that is, when things started to really go wrong.

Ex marine tanks are usually not a problem, few diseases can transcend the osmotic barrier and as long as all the filter media was cleaned and the tank given a minimum 21 day cycle there should not necessarily be any problems so far.

The day after getting the neons,1 neon was dead by next morning, we thought perhaps it was stress due to being moved from the shop. But within a couple of hours,2 more neon’s died. By that time we had started panicking. Before the end of that day, the corydora died .that was shocking as none of our fish, from original tank, had ever shown signs of illness ever.

This is your basic quarantine issue, with established community tanks , especialyy newish ones that may still be experiencing water quality issues for several months, all new fish should really be quarantined for a minimum of a month after acquisition, and NOT put into the community. I assume this is now a lesson truly learned.

By the next day all of the neon’s had died. But over the next 2 or 3 days, every single fish in the tank apart from the big plec, were showing signs of illness. First, our shark was swimming funny. It was like he was drunk, and had a rash, and load of white spots, so assuming whitespot, added a treatment. But within 24 hour he was dead. Then was our pictus catfish, she kind of rotted, she looked really bad, like she was rotting away. Also, it was as though she went mad. She kept bashing into things, again like she was drunk. And she kept diving into glass. She died that very day.

This is where it sreally kicks off, the introduced neons had a twin infection or protozoa, mycobacterium and whitespot . These three infections combined ae enough to kill any fish. The protozoa debilitate, the mycobacterium attacks muscle skin and gill tissue,even damaging the fish with braindamage, and warping muscles and twisting vertabrae, further weakening the fish to severe illness, the whitespot appeared as soon as the immune system began to wane, causing yet more metabolic drain. The condition of all fish could be described as exposed, contagious, and in need of dire medical attention.

Then there was the upside down catfish, he had same sort of symptoms, apart from she had white fur stuff by her gills. She also looked slimy. I will just add, every single one of the fish was also lethargic, just stayed in same place, kept going onto their side, and staying there and looked like they struggled to breathe, a couple of them even got a curve in their backs, which was not there before, and going to top of tank to kind of get air.

This is the mycobacterium taking true hold of respiritory functions, this means the ambient level of infection is massive, all fish will now have massive infections of protozoa and mycobacteria in all the major tissues. Only segregation and immediate heavy treatment with metronidazole would have saved them. With oxygen intake impaired, the fish has no defense against infection

The very same day our upside down catfish started getting symptoms, she died. The fighter really did look awful, he lost all his colour nearly, his fins rotted away till he had literally nothing there, the same lethargic behaviour, he then died. The plec’s still looked healthy, and we were doing everything we could to stop them dying.
We religiously did the treatments, as we were told to do, as told to us by an aquarium shop.(not same shop we had got neon’s and mollies).We assumed it was over and rest of the fish would be ok. Wrong.

Not suprising, as yet I doubt if antiprotozoans were administered, the now immuno compromised fish are now being destroyed by ambient saprolegni fungus and aeromonas bacterial infections, at this point the chances of recovery are almost zero.The treatment s given to you by the petshop may well have been the wrong type, and also capable of destroying the anerobic filter bacteria, possibly resulting in a dive in water quality, the production of ammonia and nitrate in large quantities. This would now mean that the environment was almost impossible to survive within, especially when pre-weakened bu compound disease issues

The peckoltia since we had him, stayed in a castle, but he started staying out all time, I noticed he was getting chubby, but assumed he was growing. It was my hubby who said he just didn't look right and he said he thought he was bloated, we went back to the aquarium shop, he assured us that we could do no more than we were doing. But next day he was on his back. He had died!

Plecs are tough fish, resistant to both disease , and water quality issues, they are often among the last fish to die in an infected tank, this pattern of deaths is, so far, completely predictable. The behavioural change is typical for a sick fish.

So, out of all our fish, all we had left at that point was, 3 mollies and our big plec!! 2 of the mollies have had babies. They had over 20 between them. All have died. 1 molly is very bloated,1 has fins rotting, and all have white speckle spots on them. Then our plec started rotting too. He had cloudy eyes, fins nearly gone, lethargic, kept going to top as if gasping for air. He just stayed still. He looked awful, and as he was the last of our original fish left, we desperately wanted to save him. Unfortunately he died yesterday and we are heartbroken, i really wanted him to be ok.

This is saprolegnia, fungus and finrot finishing off the last of the remaining fish. No immuno response would have meant they were overtaken, much as a sufferer of aids can be killed by a common cold.

The way things are going, we will end up will no fish at all. I’m sorry if this is going on to much, but i thought id give you as much info as i could, i may have missed something, so please feel free to question me further. I will also add, all this has happened in less that 2 weeks. One of mollies gave birth last night and there are now over 20 more babies. Thank you all so much for reading this and any help will be very much appreciated. I know this will sound very sad, but they all had personalities. I’m heartbroken after having fish all this time and less than 2wks of illness and all wiped out.

I will do another post with water environmental data, my hubby has got everything written down, and ill have to get of him later. We got an external filter, I will also put the name of it in next post. Thank you

Your mollies are lucky, and nature has done what it must for the few to survive. It radically reduced the numbers making protozoan and mycobacterium transmission less efficient. The mollies without the remaining meds and significantly improved water quality now have a chance of survival.

Easy to say in retrospect I know, but the only things that would have really done the job and saved the fish would have been the immediate installment of a uv steralisation system (something I seriously think you should consider before ever adding more fish to that tank), administration of metronidazole, then staggered with treatments of whitespot meds and anti- finrot and fungus meds. It would have been hell for even a seasoned professional to save those fish with the multiple compound issues they experienced.

There isnt much to say, except, that this is the hell you can experience when quarantines are not properly observed, and you dont happen to have good advice at hand, which is why I would encourage people to read up about fish diseases as much as possible as part of their usual commitment to fishkeeping. Books etc are available, so order em, and read em. Always quarantine, and keep reading, dont leave it to the advice of others if you can help it. Dont restock that tank until all traces of disease are gone, treated, or youve installed a UV steriliser. Protozoa and mycobacterium can be carried by disease resistant species like mollies, and the mollies could infect any fish you put into that tank from now on, unless you take the suitable precautions.

Better luck next time I guess.

Hope that helps you sort through the issues for next time, and avoids any repetition of mistakes. As for the post, a little use of the space bar and the enter button, and I could have an answer for you in 5 minutes instead of an hour I'm not really griping though. Needs must and all that.

Best of luck for the future. LHG.

thanks for all that info.altho it was a lot to take in.my hubby threw box for testing kit away,but kept test strip, unfortunatly i dont know what each square thing means.
i did read an article on fish tb earlier,all they said on web site matched.is this possible?? but then everything thats been posted to me sounds right to.i usually do 20% water change weekly.
i forgot to say in my post,my big plec had open wounds and ulcurs all over his underside.
our filter is~ "Eheim professional wet and dry filter".
hope i answered everything.

Mycobacterium is fish tuberculosis, you definately had that, and several other problems.

The ulceration could have been a few things, ammonia contact burn from near the substrate, reproductive cysts of the protozoa, possibly even a species of trematode, or lumps of infection from localised bacterial tissue necrosis in the skin where the fish's immune cells are gathering to fight the infections, a human equivalent would be pus in a wound or a boil.

Without a sample analysis I couldnt really say, a lot of the conditions in the tank could have caused the "cysts". Maybe a photo of the lumps would help some, but like I say the tank was a disease disaster zone, it could have been any of at least four causes.

BTW in comparison to a proper master test kit, test strips are often innacurate and have a very limitesd shelf life. You need tests for ph, nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia, before you can be considered to have a good idea of water quality, but with tests once a months a master test kit could last over a year.

Your equipment sounds fine,the eheim is one of the best filters money can buy, and it should be perfectly sufficient for the filtration of a tank as large as yours, on the proviso of course that it is the correctly rated model. Water quality issues are more likely to happen from overfeeding and lack of gravel cleaning if the water changes are performed. In this scenario id say the medications you were given effectively killed the filter bacteria.Any filter under those circumstances will undeperform or fail to perform until the meds are gone , and a complete recycle has been finished.

For that final "post mortem" of your disease incident name the brands of meds you were given, and we can show you the risks and conditions of usage, and if they were indeed the correct meds and if any disease was not covered by them, as I strongly suspect that was much of the cause of failure in this case.Obviously no fault of yours if that was the shoddy advice you were given, but its all information that helps others to read about.

the medication we was advised to put in tank were;
myxazin by waterlife,
anti fungus+finrot,
anti internal bactertia,
ws3 white spot terminator.
they werent all given at same time.but i expect at least one treatment overlapped with another one.
but i will add,i only did what we were recomended to do by so called proffesionals.
im not sure how to post pictures on this site,but we did take quite a few pictures just in case we needed them for future reference.

Myaxazin is a good med, very effective against harmful bacteria and rarely kills all filter bacteria unless overused, I used an interpet fungus and finrot med once, and that did completely annihilate my filter bacteria, so perhaps not so good.

Given the problems you had, I might have used myaxazin and the other "big" effective waterlife med ,protozin, and consulted a vet to procure metronidazole, that way all illnesses would have been treated without the need for a seperate ich (whitespot) cure. The metro could have been used at the same time as the protozin, and its possible you could have omitted the myaxazin completely.

Problem is of course though, that none of the meds you were given were antiprotozoans, and thusly the mycobacterium infection was never treated.

would metronidazole have cured fish tb?? all fish looking very healthy now.which is good.there are still 19 babies alive!!! im very pleased.But there is 2 babies unacounted for.i cant find them.iv looked everywhere.what do i do about that?i cant just leave them in surly

Yeah, you often have to hang in there with repeat treatments, but it does work. In case you didnt know we have disease profiles here, so you can read up on a few of the common aquarium diseases.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/profiles/diseases/

Its not uncommon for a few fry to disappear, some just die and get sucked up by the filter, some may be scavenged on, and others get eaten by their own parents. Aside from segregating young from adults, theres nothing really you can do, not all fry are viable and a certain amount of spoilage is expected.

i would like to thank everyone for help.i know i still lost all my favourite fish,which was upsetting,but i have learnt a lot from this forum.
i seriously hope i never have fish tb in my tank again.its the worst thing ever.
in the last day or so,iv noticed my tank water has changed,for the better.im sure iv finally really noticed the cycle.its the cleanest iv ever known it to be.crystal clear.
that has never happened to me before.
could i be right?is this what the water after a cycle is meant to be like?
my remaining fish look extremely healthy and happy.even the white molly looks happy,even if he is still swimming now and again upside down.
how long should i leave it before putting more fish in+how many is safe at a time?
i will not rush it this time.ill do everything right so i dont get a repeat of diseases.

Its not a question of just waiting. You have surviving fish from the infection, one of which is still clearly unwell.

It's not over until the infection of fish tb is treated. It does not pass on its own without treatment, and some fish can carry it for many months without ever showing signs of illness. Unless uv sterilisation is fitted, or the treatment given, do not put fish in that tank again, ever. Any fish that has been exposed has to be considered a permanent risk of infection to other fish until treated.Mycobacterium is a specific ailment and must be treated specifically, as yet you have not treated for it, and it will lie dormant, in tank decor and within the remaining fish, gathering in strength and number over time, waiting to rise again to kill more fish. Your aquarium will never be safe for fish (or you for that matter- since mycobacteria is a recognised zoonotic)until treatments like metronidazole are administered or the mechanical control of a UV steriliser fitted.

Your only other option is to remove remaining fish to a smaller aquaria, strip down and steralise the tank and all of the associated equipment with bleach or similar, and get it ready from scratch once more.

You cannot avoid treating a mycobacterium infection. Once it has occurred, you must persist until all of this pathogen is eliminated completely. This pathogen is not dependant on one kind of host, nor is it dependant on being internal to an infected fish. Your tank will be riddled with it, as will your remaining fish. Do not take the resistance of your remaining fish as an indication that the infection has passed- it hasnt, its merely in a pause.

To introduce new fish to the old fish or the water in that tank will result in almost certain eventual death until you exercise a chemical or mechanical control.

It wont pass on its own YOU have to destroy it.

That said, after proper treatment or control is completed, I would wait at least a month, maybe even two months to ensure any chance of the mycobacterium reproducing in number again is avoided.


In answer to your other question, yes its possible that the water clarity is a combination of adequate filtration and low stocking, frankly the preffered way to keep fish, and this crystal clear water may be the first time youve seen a tank in pollutant and nitrogen balance, but appearances can be decieving and only a test kit will reveal the answer for sure. Nitrite and ammonia nil, and the production of nitrates show a tank is cycled. You cant tell by looking. Only a test kit can tell you for sure.

Make sure, buy the test kit, do the treatments, only by doing that will you show that you have learned from the experience. To add more fish now, or to keep guessing the water qualities would be a disaster, and the whole nightmare could happen again.

sorry iv not replied to anything for ages.
iv been busy setting up my tank.again.
ive now got a uv sterilizer,which i might add,is the very best investment.ever.i wish i knew about these before i lost my beloved fish.
its been set up since my last post.suprisingly,the mollies and 1 baby are still alive!!!the baby is getting quite big now.
we have a couple of fish in tank along with mollies.(i quarantined them,lesson well learnt)
we have another hypostomus plec,its doubled in size almost in 2 weeks), a siamese fighter, 3 corydoras,2 piktus catfish,another red tailed shark,and another upside down catfish.
i did introduction of fish in tank slowly.i was not gonna make same mistakes again.
all fish are,well look,very happy.
so far so good.

Very glad that things are now going better for you and your fish . /:'