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Im utterly convinced, having used baytril extensively on all types of mammal , amphibian, reptile , and fish while in animal rescue, that it will kill the hell out of columnaris. Trouble is, it will also kill about 10% of the fish, and the filter will be stone dead. Use it only when all other avenues have failed. Its a totally systemic treatment in all tissues, but getting the dosage right is hell. Underdose and it wont work , overdose and it will kill everything including the fish. I reckon with fish youve got about a 5 % margin of error. I assume you wont be able to get it without the help of a vet. It also requires a subcutaneous or intramuscular (intramuscular is slower to get to the right tissues) injection to be truly effecitve, although a bath will work some, and do you know anyone capable of giving small fish an injection? I managed to give one to a struggling 3 inch newt, a 3mmx 1mm target at a 1mm depth, in a layer of skin over the belly, and I routinely gave injections to tiny baby birds like the wren,in their tiny thigh muscles, and even I would be retiscent to take on a fish under 4-5 inches with an injection. I wouldnt even trust most vets to do it, often being the hamfisted buggers that they are! Imagine a full nine day course of injections! If you cant do it yourself (and most people arent allowed to) then it equates to a lot of vet bills!

I guess just try everything that you can reasonably be expected to do. Good luck!

Wow! Subcutaneous injections! Hope I dont have to get to that point. Ill give a combination of Furan, melafix and pimafix a try.

Ill keep you all posted

Thanks again

James

Treatment with Furan 2 was carried out and finished following directions provided by manufacturer. 50% WC done and AC replaced to remove remaining meds.

The fish look healthy and the growth on lip is not there anymore, they are eating fine and are very active.

My concern now is the tanks nitrifying bacteria status... all dead by so much medication. The tank's cycle is back to zero and the fish are forced to endure the whole process. This is going to put stress on the population and most likely will make the fish fall back onto a disease.

What can I do to diminish the effects of the tank re-cycling on an already delicate population, in order to avoid shock on the fish?

I have some ideas I'd like to bring forward, please advise if they are adequate and safe:

1. Transfering filter media from a well established 10 gallon tank with healthy population and using it on the 50 gallon tank's filter.

2. Transfering bacteria rich water from the 10 gallon to the 50 gallon.

3. Seeding the 50 gallon with bacteria rich mulm and/or gravel from the 10 gallon.

4. Carrying out small 20% WC's every 4 days to maintain parameters at minimal levels.

5. Adding Start Zyme bacteria product every 2 days to promote bacterial growth.

Are these options viable and safe to implement? Does anyone have any other suggestions that may help reduce the stress of the fish and/or promote the tank's establishment?

Appreciatte all the help,

James

Personally I think that is a safe and excellent plan that should help the water quality come up to spec very quickly. If the cycle is inevitable theres no way that you can make it worse by doing any of that. Just make sure the media swapout goes only one way, and not back to the unaffected tank.

Im very glad your fish are otherwise cured of their problems even though they have a few rough weeks to go.

Big kudos to you for doing what had to be done, and for still hanging in there with such thoughtful diligence. You took on a difficult disease, and beat it. Very well done indeed. Youre in control, firmly at the helm, and doing some damn fine work, and intelligent thinking. /:'

Thank you LHG, honestly I would have found it very hard to pull through all this without your words of support and experienced guidance. It's very trying to see ones dear "family" members go through such a hard situation and undoubtebly you and the rest of the experienced members on this forum provide an aid that can not be acquired anywhere else.

The fish deserve all the credit, enduring the trial with flying colors, I'm merely the sucker that got them into that mess in the first place. Only fair that I help them through their demise and do everything within my grasp to do so.

I'll keep you all posted on how they come along.

Ever gratefull,

James

Here are last nights N readings:

50 gallon tank

-NH3/NH4: 0 mg/l
-NO2: <0.3mg/l
-NO3: 5 mg/l

20 gallon hospital tank

-NH3/NH4: 1.5 mg/l
-NO2: 0.3mg/l
-NO3: 0 mg/l

Tanks were seeded with bacteria from another healthy tank. Start Zyme and Cycle used to promote bacterial growth.

Seems that N cycle is complete on 50G after a very short time. Can seeding promote such fast recovery of nitrifying bacteria or could it have been that the tank was undergoing a minicycle during medication?

The fish in the 50 gallon have had a week of recovery and are not currently showing any signs of re-infection.

The gouramis in the 20 gallon hospital tank are better but still dont seem to be fully fit. On one of them I noticed a small tuft on the lower lip but after performing a WC, I failed to see it again.

Edit: How long should it take to ensure that the tank is ridden of infection, 1 week, 2 weeks of no visible symptoms?

Should I continue fertilizing my plants or should I wait until tank has settled down? I'm a little weary that the addition of ferts may throw off the already delicate balance. I'm using AP PLANTABBS and Tetra Flora Pride. Are these products safe to use without affecting the health of the tank?

PLANTABBS contain:

Ingredients:
Nitrogen, phosphoric acid, potash

Guaranteed Analysis:
11 % total nitrogen
4.9 % ammoniacal nitrogen
6.1 % nitrate nitrogen
15 % available phosphoric acid
20 % soluble potash


Hope Im not speaking to soon to be sure, but I wanted to keep you all updated.

Cheers,

James

Columnaris bacteria have quite a high turnover rate metabolically speaking, if the tank is otherwise clean, and has been treated as yours has two weeks is plenty of time to see the back of them.

Glad the cycle is beginning, hopefully the ammonia will start to drop quickly, you obviously have effective bacteria now, its just a question of waiting for the colony to be of a size to consume all the available ammonia. The completed cycle might only be a week away in the 20, and yes , it is possible for the 50 to have completed, but it might not be stable for a week or two under your circumstances.

Keep an eye on the gourami's they often suffer some of the worst infections, in fact some of the few fish ive seen completely covered by columnaris were dwarf gouramis.

Sounds like everything is going as well as can be expected.

As for the water quality and ferts, just keep doing as your doing it sounds like everything is working ok.

Thanks for the updates!

Thanks again for your input LHG. I'll give the tanks a good couple of weeks without any tampering and keep testing water to monitor and control paremeters.

The Dwarf Gouramis do worry me a bit since they are the ones that have had the infection the longest, its probably lodged deep within them. I'll monitor closely.

I have not been fertilizing my tanks during medication.(Guess I forgot to add that important bit of information) So I will not add ferts until otherwise advised. Plants are ok for the exception of the Elodeas that didnt like the low light conditions established to protect photosensitive meds. But the rineloricarias have been doing their part and eating the decaying leaves, still I plan on pulling those plants out as soon as they've had their fill so that it doesnt pollute the water system.

Anyway I'll be checking back with all of you sooner than later.

Thanks again,

James

Hello again everyone,

Last night readings,

50 gallon planted tank:

NH3: 0 mg/l
NO2: <0.3 mg/l (this is the lowest rating in my test kit)
NO3: 5-10mg/l

20 gallon hospital tank:

NH3: 0.5-1 mg/l
NO2: 1.5 mg/l
NO3: 50 mg/l

Water changes were carried out afterwards to reset parameters, 50% on the 20G and 25% on 50G.

Fish on the planted tank seem to be holding up**Dances around tank waving maracas and feathered batton while singing cleansing native chants to fright away evil spirits and jinx, **

Fish on the hospital tank seem to be doing much better, except one sunset Dwarf gourami that still shows a tuft on lower lip. Tomorrow a new approach will be taken and the 20G hospital will be turned into 2X 10 gallon clinics to separate the recovering not so infected ones from the infected one.

Plans on the 50 still on hold until real sure that the sickness is well ridden.

All the best and thanks again FP,

James

How do you turn a treatment tank into two? I take it you are hoping to prevent close contact of the fish with a seperator or something?

It might help a little, but columnaris gets in the water. If the water is shared it will get to the fish one way or another.

The plan carried out was to strip the 20 gallon hospital tank that was holding the gouramis and separate the fish into 2, 10 gallon tanks, independent from each other.

This way I can focus on the more affected fish on one tank and treat separately from those that are not as infected.

The fish from the 50 gallon are doing great and my hopes are high on them being almost in the clear...

The Dwarf Gouramis that used to be in the 20 Gallon tank are also recuperating nicely, and have not shown any signs of infection for 3 days now.

Will continue to monitor and keep you posted.

Thanks again,

James

From start to finish thats a couple of months of care it took to get rid of that. Just shows what a nightmare columnaris is , and how long you can keep going before victory is acheived.

Thats what you call a good and dedicated fish owner there.

Well done to you Red. Most people would have failed starting from where you did, but dedication, the willingness to take advice, and the love a man has for his fish wins the day. Damn fine example to others.

"We have the technology, we can rebuild them"

I am honored by your words, Longhairedgit. But yet could not have pulled through the tough times without the help and support that you and other members of FishProfiles provided.

All the marvelous fish that were affected with the infection pulled through galantly with flying colors and I'm happy to say that not one of them perished in the intent.

In fact 5 days ago I declared the tank safe and healthy after 15+ days of monitoring for reinfection. The Grand Re-Inaguration of the tank was celebrated by adding 9 Caridina japonica to the local stock. The shrimp felt right at home and quite boldly started exploring around their new environment and introducing themselves to their fellow tank mates.

They certainly are wonderful creatures...

I do hope that this experience poses as a learning tool and an example of how important it is to follow proper procedures and guidelines to maintain good living parameters for the fish. Otherwise, consequences can and will be devastating and life threatening to our beloved tank inhabitants.

I now realize that it is the fish who set the pace in the aquarium and if we tend to their needs and respect their process they will grant us with their company and happiness for as long as they shall live.

Again, thank you all for all the guidance and if you want to continue monitoring the progress of the fish you can refer to the 50 gallon tank in Costa Rica thread. http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/32514.1.htm?9#

Eternaly grateful,

James