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Answers should be fortcoming soon, thanks to the School of Veterinary Medicine at Liverpool University (if they reply to my e-Mail of course!).

The good news is that the remaining occupied aquarium seems stable for now, no further losses, and thus far, the remaining occupants seem to be not only well, but in the case of the surviving Pandas, positively frisky. And somehow, my two psychotic male Pencil Fish - the ones that think they're Mbuna instead of characins - seem to have breezed through this. I'd have thought that Pencil Fishes, even hardy ones like Nanmostomus beckfordi, would have keeled over during a disaster like this. Just goes to show doesn't it, which fishes can surprise you by being bomb proof in the midst of an utter catastrophe.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Just had a brainwave- you said a couple of interesting things...
1)that you had flu, or at least percieved it to be flu.

2) that you could think of no other vector for infection than the water... but you missed one! - you!

I say this because you mentioned the topic of water pollution and theres a real biggie here that everyone missed, one that kills thousands of fish , reptiles and amphibians and makes humans sick every year.

Cryptosporidium.

we even have outbreaks here in old blighty, often during periods of drought when reservoirs are low.

take a look at this link for some info.Bear in mind that cryptosporidium parvum is the one that most health experts are worried about, but since it does not kill fish this is of no concern, other cryptosporidium variants do kill fish and may pass on to humans though, and since we in the uk havce some experience of it due to regular outbreaks we are used to seeing the symptoms. It might be worth checking into. Check out the link , which describes the life cycle of cryptosporidium, nearly all variants reproduce similarly.

http://sfwater.org/detail.cfm/MSC_ID/51/MTO_ID/NULL/MC_ID/10/C_ID/446/

If you are fully sure about nothing comming in harms way of your tanks and that has happend at the lfs as well, then maybe you are right just didnt want to overskip the fact that it MAY hvae been something else.


AngelEel

Sorry for your losses . I found this site describing how to collect mass amounts of rain water to use in fish tanks, and I thought with all your South American species it might be good info to you, especially since you can't trust your local water source. The info is kind of at the bottom of the page on the right:
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/rain.html

Ah, that's just it Ingo.

INITIALLY I discounted the water because at first, only one aquarium was affected. Namely the one that received the new fish. Thus, initially I thought I'd brought something in with the new fish.

But, when identical deaths started appearing in the other aquarium, to which no new fish had been added (and which had also been kept scrupulously guarded against cross contamination), then the alarm bells rang.

Now, after recovering from flu, I am able to visit the LFS again, and discover from him that he too had deaths which were confined to aquaria receiving water changes at about the same time, and that several of his customers reported die-offs following water changes in both ponds and aquaria. All concentrated tightly within the same time period. Some fish were killed off quickly, before any symptoms could manifest themselves, others lingered (as did poor Shy Di) and developed rampant cloudy pop-eye that did not respond to any antibacterials, even antibiotics.

On that basis, I suspect that the water was seriously out of kilter. And the principal culprit among the treatment chemicals that could produce this range of deaths, for which there is, here in the UK, an environmental precedent that occurred in Devon some years ago, is aluminium sulphate. During that Devon incident, a tankful of the raw chemical was accidentally flushed into local river systems, and the fish die-off was calamitous to behold. Worse still, the excess spread to drinking water and resulted in some nasty human symptoms too. Given that out of all the treatment chemicals likely to persist if overdosed, aluminium sulphate is the one cited in most literature sources as having special ecological concerns with respect to fish (chlorine and chloramine are dealt with by the aquarium treatments anyway, as are several transition metals in solution) I'm starting to lean toward an aluminium sulphate overdose at the treatment end as the cause of my fish deaths - it seems a little TOO coincidental for several other fishkeepers, both tropical aquarium keepers and pond keepers, to experience the same spectrum of deaths concentrated around the same timeframe while fishkeepers whose water changes skirted around that critical period experienced no similar mass die-offs.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Could something have fell in the tank?


I doubt if someone is going to poison there own stock to sell off to stores it gives them a horrible name....I don't see that being the case.

Maybe did you forget to put in your chemicals?
I bet you anything it is something simple.. I had something quite like this thought it was everything under the sun......turns out my kid put a peice of pizza in the tank...... Even after water changes things were still dieing off.



I do belive our right about one thing that its something odd, but not poison...Maybe even a new air freshner??


o0o0o0o0oo
Another thing I have heard off...Do you have other animales that has something your treating now like, Fleas ticks, mites, or anything else??


That could also cause major deaths in tanks with not all fish showing symptoms.

I'm sorry that you have lost all those fish, Now you'll have the babys from these ones to keep on going.


Please think of the smallest tidbits of info you may find what is doing this.


Angel Eel
P.S And by all means keep up your poison search, if that is it i will fall off my seat.



Last edited by angeleel at 17-Oct-2005 12:48

Calilasseia,

What you are saying makes a lot of sense, but here comes the “but”:

Didn’t you initially rule out the water supply as none of your other tanks showed any symptoms at all?

Just wondering,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I'm sorry to hear about all your losses

I'm glad to hear that you're getting things figured out... I figured it'd have something to do with the water supply...have fun suing somebody

Double post.

I've just come back from a visit from the LFS. Apparently he had stock die off in aquaria after a water change at about the same time ... and several people among his customers have had mass die-offs in ponds following recent water changes, which now leads me to suspect that the fishes were poisoned. I'm still awaiting water sample analysis returns, but the general consensus is that the water company overdosed the water with the treatment chemicals and caused my wipeout (among quite a few others). The blame looks as if it's being placed fairly and squarely on excess use of aluminium sulphate, which is used in the UK for water treatment to kill various nasties, and which is lethal to fish in even fairly small quantities. With this in mind, I'm asking people I know in local colleges to have my water samples tested for excess aluminium to see if this is the problem.

Needless to say, I'm not best pleased about this wipeout of my stock. And, i'm having to do some thinking about what measures might be applicable to deal with a similar situation in future - delving into websites on aluminium chemistry is a fairly laborious task to put it mildly!

EDIT : just found this website which says at the bottom, and I quote:

This substance may be hazardous to the environment; special attention should be given to fish.

Well, well, well. Looks like I'm going to be suing someone ...


DOUBLE EDIT : just found this little gem also. In which it says under 'Ecological considerations' the following:

On contact with water, aluminium sulphate will hydrolyse to produce sulphuric acid and gelatinous aluminium hydroxide. Discharge to the aquatic environment should be avoided as aluminium sulphate can clog the tentacles and gills of marine life.

It also mentions that it is a corrosive hazard in contact with human skin and eyes ... oh wonderful. No wonder poor Mata Hari looked as if her eyes were about to explode - if she had a brush with this stuff ...



Last edited by Calilasseia at 17-Oct-2005 12:01

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Guess what?

A bright spot on the horizon ...

My surviving Panda Corys have SPAWNED!!!!

I've got 8 eggs on the front glass ...

Just took a photo ... will have some fun uploading this and annotating it for everyone ...

Oh, I'm now down to 3 Cardinals and 1 Pencil Fish, can't find the other Pencil Fish anywhere ... and another Otocinclus bit the dust two days ago (sigh) ... but the Pandas are spawning, which means something must be going right in there, even if I can't figure out what it is at the moment ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Hang in there, Calilasseia

At least the worst seems to be over.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hmm ... interesting new info for the database ...

My Pencil Fish were captive bred though ... and allegedly a good few generations down the line from the wild ancestors, so hopefully this shouldn't be a problem.

I guess I'll just have to let this tank stabilise for a couple of months then see if I can add anything else if there have been no deaths after that ... sigh ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Often the survivors of a disease can be the carriers of it, perhaps looking up diseases in regards to pencil fish might be the answer, either that or perhaps it is a disease they are exposed to in nature and as such will have a higher resistance to.They may even have something unique in their physiology that enables them to survive the disease or other perameters that might have contributed to the initial route of infection. Consider the fact that they survived significant and start some research from that basis.

Pencilfish ( approximately 30% of wild populations) carry Isopoda Cymothoidae , a kind of louse-like parasite crustacean, which burrows through the ventral surface of the fish and finishes in the belly, feeding from there. It is a parasite that in a confined space could easily carry gastric and blood disorders to other fish.

Last edited by longhairedgit at 14-Oct-2005 01:26

Well, after the losses i deocumented in an earlier thread, somethng has gone SERIOUSLY pear shaped in the Panda Fun Palace™ ...

Now, I've lost three Cardinals, ALL my Lemon Tetras, and Mata Hari, my star female Panda Cory, is on her way out with a truly lurid case of pop eye and a red belly that looks as if she's been shot in the belly with a 12 bore ...

I'm seriously hoping that this isn't going to end up a total wipeout ... after all the fun and happy times I've had watching the Pandas spawn too ...

The weird part is that there were no obvious signs of disease in the Tetras - they all just keeled over as if someone flicked a switch. I implemented an emergency water change and gravel vac about 3 hours ago to make sure that there were no complications vis-a-vis an ammonia spike from the dead fish, and checked everything afterwards. Aquarium parameters after the emergency water change and gravel vac were:

Temperature : 24.3°C
pH : 6.7
Hardness : 3°dH
Ammonia : 0
Nitrite : 0
Nitrate : down to just 8 ppm

I think a second Panda is starting to become pop eyed too (fingers crossed it doesn't get any worse).

This in an aquarium that gets twice weekly water changes and deep gravel vacs to make sure everything is a good as it can be for my fish too. In the case of the Lemons, old age probably played a part (my oldest one was around 8 years old) but the Pandas are still little more than kids at around 2½ years old - Corys should have a good 12 years or more in them.

This one has really got me puzzled. Especially as the Tetras were the first to go. Usually, if a disease outbreak hits, the Pandas show signs first, like the canaries in the mine, and the other fish start showing symptoms later. But this time, the Tetras have been more or less wiped out, and now the Pandas are coming down with something that seems on the face of it totally unrelated to whatever hit the Tetras.

What makes this even more puzzling is that the other aquarium - the breeding aquarium with the second generation Pandas - thus far seems totally unaffected. So if there was something wrong with the water, surely both aquaria should be showing bad signs? Especially as they both received water changes and gravel vacs three days ago.

Needless to say I'm not a happy bunny at the moment.

STOP PRESS : Mata Hari just died ...


Last edited by Calilasseia at 05-Oct-2005 01:41

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Sorry for your losses Calilasseia.

You mentioned your water parameters after the initial emergency water change but you didn't mention whether or not you had tested prior to changing the water. I notice that your pH was somewhat low after that change.

Is there a chance that you could be dealing with a case of Old Tank Syndrome? Things can get crazy with OTS in short order.

Hey Cali,

I'm very sorry to read about what's happening to your tank. I can only begin to imagine the frustration and feeling of helplessness. It sounds to me you're doing all you can and I can only wish you good luck. It sounds to me like it may be something that's in the water, have you already contacted local LFSs to ask if they are experienceing similar trouble? Or other people in your direct neigbourhood with aquaria? Don't give up, in the end you will overcome it all.

Best of luck
Martin

Make that a total of 3 Otocinclus and 7 Pandas ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Losses to date:

Panda Fun Palace™ : 2 Otocinclus, all 5 Lemon Tetras, 3 Cardinals, plus Mata Hari, my star female Panda.

Breeding aquarium : 3 Pandas (Lady Emma Hamilton & 2 suitors).

Plus, another Panda looks as if it's on its way out.

It's like the Black Death this ... and so far, the meds seem to be just keeping Shy Di hanging on, walking the tightrope. I have a nasty feeling Shy Di will either exit this life in the next couple of days, or very slowly climb back uphill. One of her playmates has just keeled over sideways on the gravel, and I reckon that one is heading for the Pearly Gates in pretty short order too.

I probably don't need to put in words the level of exasperation that results from this - going from happy, frolicking, spawning fish to 50% wipeout in the space of a week. Right now I want to hit something and break it ... seems there's precious little else I can do right now other than vent the frustration ... and to think of all the care and attention I've lavished on them too ... now I've got a pile of corpses.

Talk about depressing ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

UPDATE :

Fingers crossed, I think she might make it. Eye cloudiness seems to have diminished somewhat since adminstering the meds, and she seems a bit more lively. Here's hoping.

The bad news is that I found a dead Otocinclus in the Amazon Swordplants. One that seemed to have been dead some time for that matter. Which probably wasn't helping matters earlier on. Oh well, here's hoping that I don't lose any more fish ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Shy Di is now in isolation. I'm trying Myxazin along with medicated food to see if this brings her round. She's apparently holding - no deterioration over the past few hours - so hopefully if the meds work, she might pull through. Even so, it's touch and go.

Crossed fingers that none of the remaining fish seem affected. The remaining Pandas seem to be fine, and are eating. Shy Di doesn't seem to have much of an appetite though, so I only put two flakes of food in just in case she does come round and start eating. The medicated food might do the trick as well. Watch this space ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002