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Did you notice the affected neon swimming strangely at times, like erratic before he died?
No, everything looked fine. It couldn't have been more than an hour or so between it looking okay and when I noticed it down in the gravel trying to swim a little. That's also when I noticed the angel picking at when it stopped moving. There was never any external damage to the neon though.
I'll look closer at the other neons when I get home from work, but last time I looked, they looked normal. Except, I'm not sure if this is normal or not, you can see a dark red behind the gills.
We did get these neons, and the angel, at a chain store, but we have since found a great non-chain lfs that quarentines (that's where we got the new tank and danios).

[span class="edited"][Edited by 2004-07-14 11:31][/span]

Thanks, I've read both the neon and angel profiles quite a few times. Although, I think we got the advice to put the neons with the angel from an lfs person before seeing the part about neons being the natural prey. I've also seen a lot of discussion from people who haven't had any problems.

Here's our profile on Neon Tetras.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/profiles/fw/profile.asp?id=Paracheirodon+innesi

Similar info cna be found elsewhere on the web about neons and angels.

We just got a new live plant for the 29 last night and I think we're still thinking of adding more. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of room in the 5 gal for more plants. We did have one live and one fake, but we moved the fake one to the 29 to help jump start its cycle.
The other two neons were looking very well this morning and they both ate some flakes last night.
We're still debating whether or not to keep the angel and neons together, I am a little concerned about the neon's welfare as the angel gets bigger, especially if it had something to do with the death of that neon.

For less stress I would also consider adding plants, and not necessarily live ones either, just something that gives them places to run and hide. That angelfish, as mentioned above, is thinking dinner.

Koi

Empty chairs at empty tables, the room silent, forlorn.

Yeah - I agree with Gary. I wouldn't mess with that pH. Chances are, those neons were bred and raised locally, at the same pH of 7.6. Playing with the hardness and dropping pH to lower levels, is likely to stress the fish.

If it is of any comfort, my pH out of the tap is 8.0. It runs at 7.7 in my established tanks, and 7.9-8.0 in newer tanks. Fish store tanks locally are pretty much the same - 7.7 or so.

That's kind of what I thought. I know I don't want to start adding any chemicals to lower the pH.

A pH of 7.6 is not considered a dangerous pH level...

Fish adapt, if slowly acclimated, to various pH levels. Neons are no exception.

When you start changing pH levels you'll run into more trouble than you ever thought possible.

--garyroland.

Well, I've now had a chance to look more closely at the other two neons and I can't see anything unusual about them. While mystery shopping a chain lfs tonight, I was able to talk to the guy working there. He sounded like he knew what he was talking about (overheard him trying to explain the nitrogen cycle to a new employee). I told him what had happened with the neon and he asked about the water quality and thought that it could have been that the pH was too high (7.6) and that our water is too hard (179ppm). He commented that the water around here is really hard (which I hadn't heard anyone say before) and suggested we try a water softening pillow and more live plants. Has anyone had any luck with either method? Or are there better methods we should try to get a little less stressful water for our neons (other than taking out the angel )?
I've updated my photo album with some blurry pics of the neons in case someone can give me a second opinion.
http://photos.yahoo.com/skeletaljosh

Diane knows that once fish are infected with NTD spores, no matter where you place them, spores go right along, internally.

This means that the spores will be released once more from an infected fish and the beat goes on in another tank.

Neons, infected, will slowly lose their red stripe starting at the head and become emaciated since this is primarily a muscular disease.

No fish should be transported, as mentioned, if NTD is suspected. I've seen whole tanks go down over a period of six months, sometimes more, after an outbreak of this awful disease.

When asked about a cure and after a positive ID, I always demand that the occupants be destroyed and the tank and contents sanitized.

--garyroland.

[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-07-14 13:42][/span]

Hi,
One of our neon tetras just died last night unexpectedly. We're a little worried it could have been neon tetra disease, but we're not sure. The neon was a little pale for a week or so, but it wasn't acting any different than normal. In the tank right now are two other neons and an angelfish (still small, but eats a lot). The other neons are nice and bright, but they haven't been eating much for the last couple days. The angelfish usually leaves the neons alone, so I don't think it did something to cause the neon's death. It did pick at the neon a little as it was laying on the gravel still fighting
Basically, should we be worried about the other fish? Right now they're in a little 5 gal, but they're supposed to get moved to the new 29 in a week or two as soon as it's finished cycling. The tank has 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, pH is 7.6 (it's always been that high), temp is 78-80.
I'm worried about introducing a possible disease into the new tank, how long before we will be able to tell if the other fish are going to get sick too?

If it was faded in only one part, like you say, then you have a greater reason to suspect NTD.

What size tank is this they are in? A 5 gal?

The problem is that it is difficult to separate the angel into the new tank (29) without introducing "spores" into it, if they are there. The only way to eliminate the problem is to fully sanitize the tank after breaking it down. New filter (since they can't really be santitized), and so on. That's why I wouldn't jump just yet to assume.

Just as another check, please inspect the neons carefully for any signs of lumps or bumps on their bodies. This would be another sign. See if any are kind of off to themselves.

Did you notice the affected neon swimming strangely at times, like erratic before he died?

If you purchased your fish at a large chain store or discount store, reconsider and look for a better source locally. But for now, I wouldn't put any fish in there or in any tanks in your house right now until you get a firm grip on what happened. NTD infected fish can appear normal for some time in pristine water conditions. It is when their health is compromised or when they are stressed that it will come full circle. This makes it all the more complicated in trying to get rid of it.

We've been thinking of just moving the angel to the 29 and keeping the neons in the 5. Which would be worse, six neons in the 5 gal (slightly overcrowded?), or only 4 or 5 neons (not overcrowded) but not quite enough for a small school?
Oh, the dead neon was only faded in the red part, its blue line was still fine, I think, sorry I didn't get a picture.

Umm - neons are natural prey of angels in the wild. You are placing your neons in a frightening situation. To the angel, they are food. To the neon, the angel is a monster out to eat it. Stress = lower immunity. Lower immunity = chronic health problems. See the picture?

The angel will grow to about 5 inches in diameter in a year or two, provided water quality conditions and tank size are appropriate. It will have no trouble at some point, ingesting the neons.

I strongly suggest a separate tank for neons and angel. Angels are schooling fish and are best kept in larger tanks to fit their very tall bodies.

If any other fish develop loss of color in the bands as shown in the pictures I've attached, please try to post a pic yourself. We can help you with that, if need be. Watch for erratic swimming also.

Basically, you bought yourself a longer quarantine period. No new fish should be purchased for a good month while you observe these fish. I'm not convinced it is NTD. Not that it can't be, but there are many things that can cause fish to get sick, pale and die besides NTD. There's no reason to jump to conclusions. If you have other tanks, thoroughly wash your hands in between. Do not share equipment, hoses, or anything else that could cross contaminate the tank.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-07-14 10:50][/span]

There's no need for any meds or treatment...

If the Neon died from Neon Tetra Disease it's already too late to act.

Spores given off by an infected Neon spread throughout the tank and are eaten by other occupants along with fish food.

Just observe the rest of the fish for red line fading, one of the first indicators of infected Neons.

The disease was first noted in Neons thus the name NTD. Other species have been known to contract the disease.

--garyroland.

The only other fish in the tank are two other neons and the small angelfish. We've never seen the angelfish actually do anything to the neons, it will charge at them once in a way, but looks more playful than menacing.
We'll look for that Pepso food tonight at the LFS (which we're actually going to be mystery shopping, how's that for revenge for bad advice?)

Note the discolorings on these fish. Did the loss of color look like this (scroll down slightly when you get there)? NTD pics

Don't automatically assume that because a neon died and was pale that it was NTD. Sick fish get pale. Fish that are not comfortable with their environment get pale. It is a signal of stress. NTD color loss isn't about a fish turning pale, bit is about the loss of color in specific places, as shown.

What other fish are in the tank? Some fish will prey on neons, like angels and needless to say, this is stressful. Also, because they are newer, they could have bacterial infections or parasites.

What you may consider is to feed your tank a round of Pepso Food by Jungle. If something is happening with either infection or internal parasites, it should help. You can go longer than 3 days, but I wouldn't go more than 5. Don't feed them anything else. In addition to being an antiparasitic, it has two antimicrobials in it.

Here's what it looks like if you can find it locally. Otherwise, try Drs. Foster & Smith or Big Al's online.

http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.phtml?item=NJ169

I feed it to incoming fish depending on how much I trust the source.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-07-14 09:59][/span]

We've only had the neons for 3 weeks now. We were planning on a nice school of them once they get to the 29.

How long have you had the neons? There life span is only about 2 years, including the time there reaised and at the LFS. So if you have had them for around 1 year them may have died of old age. Correct me if I am wrong but I dont belive there is any specific Neon Tetra Disese. Just the Diseses common to all fish, and by what you explained I cant think of anything. I wouldnt worry about it. When you get that 29 I would up your school of neons to 7-8. Good luck


-topher

[span class="edited"][Edited by topher02 2004-07-14 09:33][/span]