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Water expands, look @your icecubes.

^_^
[link=H2g2]http://hitchhikers.movies.go.com/upgrade.html" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] 2005 Don't Leave Home Without it

LMAO, exploding fish in the freezer.

But.. back to the issue in hand -

When tropical fish are kept in cool/unheated water in a colder place (i.e not in a nice hot tropical country), don't they die from lack of heat? If they do, why would they survive near-freezing temperatures to then go on and feel their cells freezing?!

And if they don't, I've wasted my money on aquarium water heaters

I read something about this once, but I can't remember where... what they say, though (I'm no expert, so I dont know if this is fact): Have you ever gotten alcohol or clove oil in your eyes? It STINGS. And I don't think fish can blink... but for all I know, maybe they have some kind of thing that goes over their eyes like an eyelid... either way, although I've always used the freezing method, I also heard the fish *can* feel the ice cicles forming on their body... that would hurt. But if they slip into a coma like humans do, maybe they don't. But considering tehy're very different from humans, I can't be entirely sure they'd go into the state of euphoria that people do... if I had the stomach for it, I'd just smash/cut the head off.. but it just seems so, yknow...VIOLENT... "Sorry Finny, but it's time to go to the world beyond. SQUASH."

It was reported that the fish in question died quickly by freezing...

How much pain a trop normally feels is in question anyway and you can bet that a very sick trop will die quickly and painlessly by the freezing method.

I've seen more hobbyists trying to nurse a sick and hurting fish back to health, allowing the poor trop to suffer endlessly, never considering the constant agony the trop must be in.

--garyroland.

Thanks Babel and Laura for excellent links. Laura - I hope to see you do an article in one of the fish mags on the topic. I like the way you present the info from the experts objectively and highlight the fact that even they don't necesarily agree. I think the important fact is that people are consciously trying to humanely destroy their fish. We will continue to learn as time goes on.

I have used Clove Oil, which can be purchased at a local health food store and some pharmacies in the health food section.

I have used it with vodka and without. I used alcohol the first time as it was thought to be required to emulsify the oil. Not so. Placing the 20 drops into a disposable/used water bottle and shaking vigorously with the bottle 1/3 full of water will emulsify it more than enough.

I place the fish in a disposable container large enough to handle 1/2 to 1 gallon for small fish. Then, I slowly pour the solution in.

The fish will dart around for a bit before getting disoriented and falling to its side on the bottom. This is most likely the reason some cite that it may or may not be painful. It lasts a few seconds. When it falls to its side it is at this point that "surgical procedures" are done. However, less is probably used. I just leave them in the solution an hour, then I place them in the freezer in a little water to ensure they are gone. Freshwater can often reverse the effects, therefore if it is buried in porceline express it could come back around.

It is recommended that the fish be decapitated or frozen after it is "under".

Gills flared and still indicate the fish has expired and it is not reversible at this point.

The fact that this method is used successfully for anesthesia, suggests to me it is not a bad way to go. I would not advise the use of any alcohol.

Incidentally, I have MS-222. I have not used it because when I got it, the stuff talks about effectiveness in varying pH. I have high pH here and would need to lower it based on what I read for it to work properly. It doesn't make sense to put the fish in much lower pH in order to kill it as that itself is stressful.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 31-Oct-2004 09:40

Last edited by Cory_Di at 31-Oct-2004 09:40

Clove Oil by itself is really the only way to painlessly euthanize a fish. As Clove Oil is a natural anesthetic, it works quite well as a euthanization tool. It is no different than euthanizing a cat or dog this way. Freezing, well think about it this way, would you take your favorite cat or dog and put it in a baggy and freeze em? No I think not. That would be entirely cruel.
You can get clove oil from any pharmacy. Just ask the pharmacist. I take a small container, the smallest one the fish will fit in, and fill 2/3s to the top with tank water. Add 1 Teaspoon clove oil for water of a volume 1/4 liter or less. Stir until frothy. Add fish. Once the fish has passed out, either leave it an additional 15 minutes in the solution, or remove to ensure death.
Once asleep the fish feels nothing.


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There's a lot of disagreement on this subject, even in the official ranks, as I found out when I did some research on it for an article. (I'm a science writer by profession.)

Some of the pros whose opinions I respect most use freezing to euthanize fish.

But the American Veterinary Medical Association's committee on euthanasia, which reviews all the scientific literature on the subject every five years or so and makes recommendations to veterinarians, calls freezing "unacceptable" unless you first anesthetize the fish, because the formation of ice crystals could cause "pain or distress."

The committee also concluded that there haven't been enough studies on fish to determine whether clove oil (with or without vodka) is painful, and until those studies have been done, they recommend against using that method, too.

On the other hand, the British equivalent of the AVMA cites clove oil as a preferred method of euthanasia.

They also found freezing acceptable if you happened to have a vat of liquid nitrogen hanging around that you could drop the fish into, but recommended against putting fish in the freezer (although they didn't elaborate as to why).

Both groups found the following methods are acceptable for fish euthanasia:

-- severing the fish's spinal column
-- use of certain chemicals such as tricaine methanesulfonate, aka MS-222, which isn't exactly easy to obtain.
-- carbon dioxide. (They recommend commercial-use CO2 from a canister, which obviously most of us don't have sitting around the house; I've heard of people using Alka Seltzer tablets as a substitute. However, the British group calls that method "unacceptable."

Anyway, for what it's worth -- and perhaps it's not worth much, since just because someone is a vet doesn't mean they're a fish expert -- here's the link to the AVMA report:

http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Here's the link to the British report:

http://www.bvzs.org/euthansiaguidelinesfish.htm

FYI, while reseraching my article, I also discovered that there are a couple of states in the US where it's technically illegal to euthanize a fish yourself -- you're supposed to take it to the vet and have him/her do it for you (as if that wouldn't be twice as traumatic to the fish ...)

Well, i guess my point is do fish's bodies produce some sort of pain-numbing endorphins that make it "painless" for them?

fallout... if the consequences of freezing are that things happen that would cause pain, but the brain doesnt allow that pain to register... would the result still be a painless death? i'm really not trying to be a wise-guy here, i'm curious...

i always thought that freezing was a fairly painless way to go... i'm thinking of that jack london story where the guy is lost in the woods with his dog, and he freezes to death and the dog leaves him... he just kinda falls asleep, then it's over...

and especially if it's not prolonged, like a small cold-blooded fish in a small amount of water, which is pretty different than a warm-blooded human in cold water...

once again, im not trying to start trouble or grate on anybody, just thinking out loud

---

Back in the saddle!

It's the brain/bodies natrual defense... the brain releases endorphins to ease up on the pain from freezing to death...

Not that people will take the time to read a link but...

here is one to read. They reccomend against freezing

"Non-Humane or unacceptible methods you should never use:

* There is some debate as to whether or not alcohol causes suffering.
* Freezing ior placing the fish in ice-cold water does not kill instantly, and does cause the fish to suffer. At least 5 minutes time is required to cause death.
* Flushing a fish down the toilet will not put the fish out of its misery. Instead it will wallow in misery in sewage and harmful chemical levels for hours or even days.
* Dumping the fish in a local river or pond is not acceptible! Introducing non native live to any natural source is bad for the environment. You just might start an infestation"
Which is an excerpt from this site.

And finally from our own Fishprofiles FAQ section, located most conveniently @the top of each and every page.

"Methods that are not recommended but are often mentioned include variations on freezing. Fish tend to suffer in these procedures. It does not matter whether they cool down slowly when you place them in a bowl of water in the freezer or if the water is already cold from the addition of ice cubes. Fish react to these methods in a negative way, and it is painful to watch. Finally one should NEVER flush a fish down the toilet. This is not an effective method of euthanasia but is a form of torture as the fish ends up in a septic tank or similar place where it is bathed in nasty chemicals and sewage before finally succumbing hours if not days later."

No doubt there will be those that continue to argue.


H2g2 2005 Don't Leave Home Without it

Last edited by Babelfish at 28-Oct-2004 12:09[/font]

Don't be in a hurry...

I've talked to people that almost froze to death and they all say the same thing.

They slowly and painlessly fell asleep.

--garyroland.

fair enough, gary. i saw it on the discovery channel a year or so ago. not completely fresh in my memory...

anyway, the point is that it probably wouldnt be painful since the body would shut down first. i dunno, next time i freeze myself to death i'll let you all know how it went.

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Back in the saddle!

Well, you're close...

The frog you mention has a sort of antifreeze ingredient in his blood that does not freeze.

His heart slows down, like a hibernating bear, to near zero beats.

You'll find that any living creature that freezes solid ends up with severe cell damage.

--garyroland.

i'd have to go with babel on this one. think of the way a pothole forms during winter: there's a little crack in the road, water gets in and freezes, widening the crack as it expands. same thing with cells: moisture and little water droplets get into cells, freeze and expand. cells burst. it's why we can't bring frozen humans back to life. our cells arent made to recover from freezing. there is a kind of frog, however, whose cells are made to withstandf freezing and theyve been known to freeze solid during winter months underground, then thaw out completely and come back to life in spring. kinda cool.

all that said, i'm sure you'd lose consciousness before all that happened.

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Back in the saddle!

That's good...

If there's one thing I can't stand it's exploding fish in my freezer.

--garyroland.

Place the trop in a little water in a plastic baggie and place in the freezer...

As with humans freezing to death, the trop will slowly and painlessly go to sleep.

--garyroland.

their cells if anything will contract, not expand

Good grief...

So many ways to kill a trop.

But I must remind Miss Babel that humans who freeze to death first go unconscious and then die a pain-free death.

I don't imagine their cells explode, at least not the humans I've seen frozen.

If trop's cells do expand, and they may, before that happens the trop is totally unconscious and free of any sensation.

--garyroland.

if the fish is small you can drop it in a cup of rubbing alcohol. this will imideatly kill the fish and it is painles for the fish. the alcohol hits them so quick, there isnt time to feel any pain. if the fish is big, decapitation is the best way to go.