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Hi all,

I recently found this site when googling around for aquarium resources; I started reading some of the posts and the folks seemed to know what they were talking about so I registered . I'm impressed with this community so far and I hope you guys can help me.

I recently lost a pair of Lyretail Mollys about two days apart--one very cute dalmatian that my wife picked out, and a solid black one. They couldn't really swim around very well, and I don't think that their breathing was labored--they just became extremely lethargic and hung out at the bottom of the tank. I immediately moved each one to another container for fear of some infection and to watch them, but each one after the other slowly ended it's life there. I find this a little strange--especially since the dalmatian was happily and severely harassing my other black sailfin just yesterday.

I'm pretty much a novice outside of feeding/performing water changes on the research lab's tank at the school I graduated from while I was there. My wife and I were looking for a new hobby, and she mentioned doing an aquarium. So off we went to the local pet shop. The petstore clerk said that mollys were basically indestructible--which is obviously wrong--so we picked up three, and took them home to the new tank. After the death of the first molly I noticed my tank was a little cloudy; then the engineer in me took over and the googling began. I had clearly forgotten a very crucial step in building an aquarium from scratch: tank cycling.

Clearly, I have new tank syndrom. I started doing 20% water changes every day--and I'm slowly adding the correct proportion of instant ocean to each water change to swap the tank over to a decent brackish gravity for more stable water conditions. I didn't know that mollys could thrive in both salt and fresh water--a fact that has turned me on to this fascinating little fish. Since I'm still a novice I'm still wondering if there's anything I have missed. I have an AquaClear 10-30 gallon filter; I made sure not to skimp on the filtering at all because I know how important that is.

Did new tank syndrom stress my two mollies to death or should I be looking for something else? Is there any thing I could have done to keep them alive?

I still have a really cool looking black sailfin that I'd like to keep alive.

Welcome aboard.

Yep, that cloudy white was a bacteria bloom, part of the cycling process. Rereading about the process may help you now and in the future.

You didn't give us actual water quality readings, without that we're pretty much in the dark.

All life forms are destructible, unfortunately fish get handed the short straw a lot, especially when it comes to chain pet stores. Most don't even have a clue about how to keep fish. Yes, some fish are hardier than others here is a article on good beginner fish. Usually that just means they're able to tolerate a wider range of water conditions be it temperature, ph, or the ammonia and nitrIte of the cycling process.

Giving us a bit more info on the tank (size, temperature, water readings total stocklist) can help us get your tank on the right track.

Some things you can do is dose Cycle, it provides the bacterias your tank needs to be stable. I use it only when starting up a new tank and after a round of medications that can damage the biofilter. Other people will use it with each water change.
Dropping the water level in the tank a little to allow more splash from the AC filter will increase surface agitation and therefore oxygenation of the water which will help with the stress the fish are facing.

Small water changes throughout the cycling process isn't always a good idea. Instead of letting the ammonia and then nitrItes build up enough you're reducing the numbers and dragging out the process which can also cause stress on the fish.

My guess is, uncycled tank combined with the stress from being transported from store to home caused the deaths. Not acclimating slowly to the new tank (water conditions are likely very different from what they were at the store) will also play a large role. Also, very very frequently I've seen stores, especially the chain pet stores, that have disgusting tanks. Dead fish, sick fish, and still for sale. Could you imagine a store staying in business for long if it had a dead puppy in the same pen as live ones? Yet they do it for fish all the time, never warning customers about it.

That's enough soapboxing for me!

Let us know what your water parameters are and hopefully we can get you on the right track. If you havent got one this is the one most of us have big als is pretty good with pricing and shipping IME.

^_^

Thanks for all the advice Babelfish.

My current tank specs:

10 gallon rectangular tank with a basic gravel substrate
1 x Standard female black molly
2 x ghost shrimp

pH (just checked with a dropper style kit): 7.0

I don't have a kit to look at amonia/nitrIte/nitrAte so I currently don't have those readings. I can take a water sample by the local pet shop (not a chain) and get it tested for those values and get back to you. I am a little worried about the lower pH.

I was worried about overstocking so I used a tool that I found somewhere on these forums that calculates that for you. I think with the original three mollies I was at 103% in my 10 gallon.

The one molly I have left seems to be happily swimming about. She'll come to the top of the water and nibble on my finger when I place it on the top of the water in the hood opening. She's not breathing heavy or acting sick at all.

The remaining molly does sound ok. Those water changes sound like they've kept the water conditions bearable.

Be sure to write down the numbers that they give you, if they say that your water is 'fine' ask for the exact numbers.

If you've had a chance to read up on the cycling process you should know about where your numbers will be, and when they give you numbers know what's going on in the tank.

If they try and sell you a bottle of magic, be suspect. Most of the products are going to either cause trouble or do nothing. Cycle is one of the products that is good. Some ammonia lockers (ammoloc) can be good but throw off readings in the long run.

7.0ph is fine if you're keeping standard tropicals. It's when you get into the picky fish that the ph really becomes an issue. More of an issue is the fluctuating ph. For instance, the LFS might have had a ph of 6 and your tank 7.5, without a slow acclimation process that's a big change to make. If you're close to where your LFS is you are likely on the same water supply so it could have been a similar ph, it just depends on what they might be adding to their tanks.

Since 7 is a little low for the molly you have left you may want to consider what your stocking plans are for the 10. Keeping in mind that 10s are rather limited in the stocking. You're going to want to stick to small bodied fish that don't get more than say 2" and if you go with a schooling fish stick with one school, and keep them under that 2" mark.
If you decide you want fish that do need the higher pH there are ways of raising it without the use of a bottle. Bottles and powders tend to cause fluctuations in the water chemistry. Texas holy rock is one of the most common ph raisers in fishtanks.


^_^

Hello jduv and welcome to FishProfiles!

From a glance it appears that the problems you are facing are indeed "new tank syndrome". Your tank is most likely 'cycling'. The nitrogen cycle is the process which converts fish pee (ammonia) into nitrite then nitrate. I could write for a good half an hour explaining the fine details of the nitrogen cycle but it would be much easier to provide you with a couple of great articles that will explain everything much better than I possibly could. I would highly recommend reading these few articles and hopefully they'll make things a bit more clearer for you.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_ciclo.php

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

Partial water changes during the cycling process can be both good and bad. Like Babel said they could be lowering the ammonia and nitrite levels too much and hence stalling the process to some degree. But they are also your best friend. One thing I would highly recommend is to buy yourself an ammonia test kit and a nitrite test kit. A nitrate test kit is always useful but isn't a necessity for the average aquarium if you do frequent partial water changes.

In the initial stages of the cycling process you'll get a build up of ammonia levels. This is because there isn't an established colony of nitrifying bacteria in your aquarium and filter yet.

Nitrifying (bacteria that consume ammonia and produce nitrite) will be introduced to your aquarium through any new substance that is placed in there. They are abundant in nature and will find their way to your aquarium naturally but its always a good thing to kick start the cycling process by introducing an extra source of these helpful bacteria. This can be done by adding an object from an already established aquarium such as filter media, some gravel or even some ornaments like driftwood or plastic plants, or even live plants! You can also use products like Cycle or others that claim to store billions of beneficial bacteria. These products in my experience will not work as well as they promise, but they will work never the less and will speed up the cycling process a little bit. Which is always a good thing if you're using live fish to cycle the tank.

Now I said before that partial water changes can be your best friend during the cycling process. I said this because you should perform a waterchange if ammonia levels reach very high levels and also can be said if nitrites reach high levels. This is also why getting those ammonia and nitrite test kits is a must. You won't know the progress of the aquarium's cycle unless you can test these parameters.

When fish setting up an aquarium it is quite common for a bacterial bloom to occur and this produces cloudy water. This is a bloom of nitrifying bacteria due to the increased levels of ammonia in the tank. Don't worry, this is a good thing. The nitrifying bacteria will eventually reach a population size which will halt the increasing levels of ammonia and reach a population size equilibrium and the ammonia levels will drop to almost zero and will hopefully stay this way.

But with this comes an increase in nitrites. Nitrites sadly is even more toxic to fish than ammonia. Nitrite has a higher affinity to the oxygen binding regions of haemoglobin in red blood cells than oxygen and with even low nitrite levels your fish will begin to asphyxiate and suffocate. But some fish are more sensitive than others when it comes to ammonia and nitrites and that is why choosing the appropriate fish to cycle your aquarium if you go down the path of using fish to cycle your aquarium.

Common fish to use are danios or goldfish. But mollys are very hardy fish too and you can use them if you already have them in your tank.

I wouldn't get any more fish or shrimp than you already have to cycle your tank. And I know this may sound cruel or nasty but your shrimp will probably die during the cycling process and if they do don't remove them from the tank. They will break down and the resulting ammonia will help the tank cycle. But keep an eye on the ammonia levels, if the dead shrimp cause the ammonia to sky rocket remove the dead shrimps.

Now with adding aquarium salts to the tank for the molly's isn't necessarily a good thing to do during the cycling process. If the molly's were bred and raised in fresh water and kept in fresh water with no added salt before you got them you'll only stress them more by changing the water conditions on them. Though adding rock salt (has no added iodide) to the tank can reduce the toxicity of nitrite (chloride ions can block the binding of nitrite to haemoglobin), I wouldn't recommend doing this unless as a last resort. And please research the appropriate amount to add to a tank your size and do it gradually if you do this.

I'm sorry if all this information is overwhelming, but I hope you get through these initial stages of your new tank without any more fatalities.

If worse comes to worse and your shrimp and molly die due to ammonia or nitrite toxicity you could always leave them in your aquarium and a good few pinches of fish flakes to the water and cycle the tank that way. Watch the ammonia and nitrite levels and follow a guide to using fish food to cycle the tank and once the tank is completely cycled do a couple of partial water changes and you'll be ready to add some new fish to the tank. But remember when adding fish its always best to do so gradually and not to add lots at one time.

You can always ask people on these forums for advice on what fish to get for your tank and whether the amount of fish is too much and if you can add more fish to your tank.

Best of luck and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

I took a water sample in to my local pet shop and I received the following answer:

me: "Well, how is it?"
pet shop dood: "Looks good"
me: "What do you mean good? What's the numbers on the ammonia and Nitrite?"
pet shop dood: "Well, you have trace amounts of Nitrite and Nitrate, but elevated ammonia levels"
me: "What does that mean?"
pet shop dood: "You should probably let the ammonia levels rise so you can keep the tank cycling. It looks like it may have not even really started yet. You shouldn't do any more water changes until the tank is finished cycling."

Basically, he couldn't give me any numbers; I don't think he even had the reference cards that come with the test kit. I'm not really sure how useful that trip to the pet store was. Being an engineer I like numbers and actual, quantifying measurements instead of fudging and guestimations.

Regarding the salt water, I have been very slowly adding some instant ocean to the water that I cycle back into the tank--about three table spoons of instant ocean per 2 gallons of treated tap water--so the gravity of the water is still very, very low.

At this point I'm not quite sure what to do. I guess I should purchase a Nitrite and Ammonia test kit and keep an eye on those levels--or perhaps look into this Cycle product you guys speak of. My remaining Molly seems happy and content. She swims around and nibbles at stuff in the tank, eats really well, and seems to be generally good.

Yeah ammonia and nitrite kits are a must. Test kits are expensive but they go a long way so its a sound investment.

If you're strapped for cash it would be wiser to buy the test kits instead of cycle. You can always do a partial waterchange if ammonia levels are way off the charts.

I borrowed a test kit from a friend, and the tank looks like the following:

pH: 7.2
ammonia: 0
nitrate: 0
nitrite: 0

I find this kinda weird for a 10 gallon tank. Could I have cycled extremely fast?

If your tank was cycled you'd have nitrates. If the test kits are greater than 3 or 4 years old they'd probably be out of date.

I still recommend buying your own kits. They are very handy to have around.

Agree with gomer, either the tests are out of date, the tank isn't cycled at all (in which case you wouldn't have had trace amounts with pet shop dood), or it's possible that you didn't do the test quite right, being an engineer I don't believe thats the case in this situation. Of the three tests, it's NitrAte that's a little more involved with the shaking.
Like those of us having done a lot of tests, you can usually tell without looking at the cards where the numbers are going to come out. Still would have been nice if he'd given you the numbers when you asked .

Was your friend with you to run the tests by any chance. Determining the colors can be a bit hard at times, especially if there's any issue with color blindness.

Like gomer said, ammonia and nitrites are a must, ph and nitrAte are helpful IMO. Master test kits make it easier but if it is too much at one go, just get ammonia and nitrite. Cycle isn't necessary, wasn't around when I started keeping fish (wow that makes me sound ooollldd, it's a fairly recent addition afaik) but it is fairly handy to have around.

If the mollys doing good, and your numbers are reading as cycled (no ammonia, no nitIte and only a small amount of nitrAte) I'd give it a week before considering adding more stock.

Big Als has the master test kit i have on sale, that's really cheap ( I think ours was $40 here in oz)


^_^

Cool thanks Babel.

I haven't done any water changes and the molly is still happy. I think I'll give it another day and check the NitrAtes again. The wife always complains about my color perception XD so there's a good chance I may have misread the color of the water.

Nevertheless, ammonia/ammonium + nitrites are all within safe levels. Cycling in a little instant ocean with my water changes seems to have helped a little too I think. The water is much more clear than it was a week ago.

I'll keep on trucking and reading stuff on this forum. Thanks to all for your help!

Ask the wife for help with the colors , women generally have a better eye for color than men, that whole picking the edible berries thing.

The water clearing up sounds like the ammonia spike has built and dropped, the nitrItes may or may not be present due to the water changes, or the lack of an ammonia source (less fish less waste). It may take a little longer cycling your tank as you had the issues at the start. If you don't start seeing some nitrAtes soon, I'd suspect that the cycle has stalled and you may need to increase feedings (to provide a decomposition source for the ammonia). Or use some Cycle. If you didn't have fish in the tank you could use unscented uncolored ammonia, but with the fish in the tank that's not an option.

Now that you know more of what's going on in the tank I think you'll be fine. Are there any live plants in the tank?

^_^

Wow, confession. I didn't RTFM on the bottles so my previous test was completely wrong. I thought they were similar to pH--where you fill the bottles, shake vigorously and then check against the card. Turns out there's instructions on the back of the cards on how to do each test, oops.

So now, after getting the wifey's help with the colors I have the following:

pH: 7.4ish
Amonia: in between 2 and 4, so we're gonna call that 3
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate:5 ppm

Due to the high ammonia, lack of nitrite and presence of nitrate it does indeed look like I'm still cycling methinks. Is that dangerously high levels of ammonia? No plants in the tank.

yep.
do some water changes, try to bring those numbers down, to save the fish you have left.

That is pretty high ammonia.

Since there is nitrAte present in the tank, combined with ammonia I suspect a minicycle is happening. These can happen after a tank is cycled (especially in smaller tanks) when something goes out of whack. A fish dying would create enough ammonia in an already established tank to cause a minicycle.

Test your water supply as well. I just recently discovered I was adding ammonia to the tank by using rain tank water for the water changes. Needless to say I've switched back to tap water for water changes.

Making sure there's plenty of surface agitation will increase the gas exchange and allow more oxygen into the water. If you're running a HOB type filter lowering the water level a little so the water splashes as it re enters the tank. Same thing with a canister, have it below the level of the spray bar or outlet. If you cant lower the water level, airstones can help by agitating the surface.

And yes, do a small water change, then check the numbers again in the morning/evening. Doing small water changes is always better than one massive big one unless it's an emergency (ie someone spills beer in the tank)

^_^

I use tap water also, which tests clean for ammonia.

I tested the water again last night (with the help of the wife of course) and I got the following numbers:

Ammonia: 1ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
pH: 7.6

Looks like I'm still cycling. The Nitrite worries me though. That has never shown up before. My remaining Molly is still happy. She's such a trooper.

nitrIte is just part of the cycle, don't stress over it too much so long as your molly isn't stressing too much.

I'd suggest to keep testing once a day, you should start to see the ammonia drop even without doing water changes. It should start to settle in a week and then the nitrIte drop as well.

^_^

Howdy folks. Updates:

The tank still hasn't completely leveled off since we spoke last. My most current previous two readings:

11/13/2010
pH: 7.2
NitrIte: 0.25
Ammonia: 0.5
NitrAte: 20-30
Performed an immediate water change of 20% + a dose of prime

11/16/2010
pH: 7.6
NitrIte: 0.20
Ammonia: 0.25
NitrAte: 30
Added a dose of prime, no water change

About three weeks ago, after I got decently consistant (0 Ni,0 Am,80 Na) readings for a couple of days, I added a second female molly to the tank to keep my only survivor Molly and her compatriot brine shrimp company. I also got a couple of Zebra Nerites to keep the tank clean because I had some serious algae growth. So, my stock is:

10 gallon tank
2 x Female black molly (around 1.5" a piece, one of which is VERY preggers and came that way from the store =/)
2 x Zebra Nerite Snails (decently large doods)
2 x Brine shrimp (1 very small, 1 medium size)

That's probably getting close to it's load and I'm NOT planning on adding anything else. I'm still concerned about those NI and AM levels. Could it be because I added one fish and two snails? I mean I understand that this is a small tank, but I don't think those snails are that messy are they?

Here's a thought, when you add the fish from the store do you dump the water from the store in the tank? I find it's best not to as you never really know what the water parameters are from the shop, or what it might be carrying.

I don't like that ammonia and nitrite either , but the stock should be ok. Are those snails ok in brackish water? I'm assuming you're adding salt since there's the brine shrimp in the tank (sorry if I'm wrong here hard to keep track sometimes).

Snails, well they'll produce waste for their size. I hate when people say 'messy' about a fish. A lot of it depends on their diet (in a snails case they're eating leftovers and well 'seconds' from the other fish). Nothing eats poop, they just further process it. Well, let me correct myself there, no animals eat poop. Plants on the other hand often come in useful for absorbing up the ammonia, a heavily planted tank may feel the shock of a minicycle less than a non planted tank due to the plants ammonia and nitrite uptakes.


^_^

I like the idea of adding some plants to this tank. I currently have a relatively coarse gravel substrate, so I'm not entirely sure how that would work. Suggestions there are welcome.

Remarkably, the Zebra Nerites are suitable for anything from fresh to full blown marine. Those snails actually breed in salt water (from what I have read anyways) so they should be ok. My shrimp aren't enjoying the salinity change though, so I may need to find another home for them.

As to your question about tank water, I make it a point to never place store water in my aquarium. I float the bag to get the temperature right, then transfer the stock to another container filled with freshly drawn aquarium water. Wait a couple of minutes so the little guy gets it's bearings, then I dump it in.

Thanks again for all the help!