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I'm willing to bet it was the water change that helped them, not the medication. It's amazing what a water change can do for fish that are suffering from ammonia or nitrite poisoning - the fish often show signs of improvement immediately.

On the other hand, bacterial infections, which is the only thing the Pennicillin treats, heal much more slowly. The improvement you've seen in your fish would take at least a couple days to take place it was because of the antibiotics.







Last edited by Cory Addict at 29-Nov-2005 01:01

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

"Stop the meds movement"

I wonder how many fish have to die before people realise that might not be such a great idea?

Meds are there for a reason, not using them when they are needed is just plain ignorant.If there were a legitimately convincing eco-arguement that they should not be used, trust me , id be the first one to sound off about it, but since we keep fish in conditions that do not mimic nature and often cause infections in concentration indeed not experienced outside of aquaria , avoiding the use of meds is an entirely moot point.I wonder how you would feel if you could get ich or something and you went to the doc and he prescribed you a nice homeopathic remedy or a placebo.

I think "I HAVE 12 DAYS TO LIVE AND YOURE SUGGESTING I TAKE ROSE WATER!" might not be everyones most desired experience.

In this case with these oscars we're talking about fish kept in an insufficient water volume being given a dodgy med for a possibly innacurately diagnosed problem.Its hardly the meds fault that it went wrong,unless they were manufactured poorly it was user error.With a great many meds you can experience filter die-off, what we need is more advance warning of what these drugs may be. It might actually help if someone printed it on the packet.

I too am against over medication,and folks will know that I have frequently mentioned the advantages of resting fish in between essential doses, to allow the fish time to recover, but sometimes theres literally nothing else to be done, unless you really wanted to sit there and watch the fish die.It would be better if on the whole vets were cheaper, better read, and more available. That is the problem we face, not the meds themselves. Its inappropriate use that we should be looking into, and those companies who sell products that are ineffective or even dangerous that need to be stamped on.Its unfortunate that we have to look to ourselves for help in these subjects, but lets be honest, we are simply trying in any way we can to compensate for people who either will not consult with a vet, cant afford to go to a vet, or have no vet with relevant experience.

To say that meds should not be used will lead to far more deaths than it prevents, lets be honest most drugs are subject to some testing , and on those performance averages alone it can be safer to treat than not to treat. That people need better guidance in using said drugs and how to choose the right drugs is not a convincing arguement to discourage them from using them.



...and on the subject of antibiotic, some are contact bactricides that work almost immediately, and others (most of them) require synthesis and chemical reactions from the liver and kidneys and/or a reaction from the immune cells of the fish for the drug to become effective, this takes many hours to several days.Ingestibles again require the digestion period, depending on the size of the fish anything from a couple of hours to nearly a week!Even intramuscular injections can sometimes take many hours to come into effect.

Intravenous injections and agents absorbed through the gills can be much faster, but again if still requiring a renal or immuno response from the fish you may have to wait more than a day for any positive effect.

Why do you think so many antibiotics have instructions that indicate they should be used normally for a minimum of 4 days, up to two weeks? Its not always because of the incubation or reproductive cycle of the bacteria they are designed to combat because this varies from minutes to months depending on the species of bacteria, and the drugs can be broad spectrum. Its because many drugs have to accumulate in the system and be metabolised over a certain period of time without causing overdose, and the drug only works in some cases because it promotes a chemical or antibody response from the animal.


Last edited by longhairedgit at 01-Dec-2005 00:27

"will this help the bacteria growth in the tank by not touching the gravel for now?" - yes.

Can you get Biospira at your LFS ?

The Amazon Nut...

thanks I'll look into that. Ive been neglecting to use a gravel vac and just draining about 30% per day before I add the meds. will this help the bacteria growth in the tank by not touching the gravel for now?

Something that would help your cycle a bit is BioSpira as it introduces good bacteria.. Failing that, Cycle will help a bit, but nowhere as good as biospira.

Too many large water changes right now will slow down your cycle yet you want to change a bit daily for that ammonia. I know that large one was necessary though for the sake of the oscars. Definately should you feel the med is helping, continue it.

I'm glad you're an experienced fishkeeper, i have about 25 years meeself And raised a few oscars in my day. But my real fish education did not start until I joined this site 3 years ago. I've gone crazy since, and lost all my sanity.

Check out the Logs and Calendar features of the site if you haven't discovered that yet, very useful.

Regards,
DaFish



Last edited by DaFishMan at 30-Nov-2005 09:34

The Amazon Nut...

btw. as new as u guys think I am.. Ive known about this site for years.. just always forget my passwords and hav a new s/n by the time I get on here again... Ive hav tanks since I was about 10 so its not like I'm new to this... just new to larger cichlids.. I do hav a jack dempsey whos ny baby and a parrot cichlid... I'm also a fan of invertebrates... jus a note. I hav about 8 tanks and a pond in my house/sunroom... but anyways I am thinking of purchasing another filter to go along with my magnum 350 for the 75g... any suggestions? I want something thats gonna help the biological filter. thanks
-christine

no the fungal infection happend long before the ammonia rush came.. it appeared a day after I got them.. and I think it had something to do with the male thrashing around going in and out of tanks... dont get me wrong, the water changes are helping but they arent whats taking care of the fungus problem. if i stopped the meds i'm sure the fungal infection would stop going away... but thanks I will keep changing the water daily until I hav a better bacterial growth in my tank. My fish were actually looking for food yesterday! so I'm glad they arent near death anymore

I too join the "stop the meds" movement.
it doesn't take effect until 48 hours and more. the kind you're using (what kind of Penicillin is it, btw?) shouldn't be used yet, because you don't know what kind of infection you've got if at all (there are many many kinds of antibiotics), and it weakens the fish in the process.

also, listen to the people's replies here. they are experienced, and from my past experience they know what they're talking about.

Glad to hear the large water change helped your oscars,
and hopefully you will heed the advice regarding stocking, when they are all better. Welcome to FP

The Amazon Nut...

Yep, antibiotics would take a round 48 hours to even metabolise, its gotta be the water change that did it. Theres your answer, bigger more regular water changes. That and possibly buy a new or different brand of test kit.

It may even be that the antibiotics are making things worse and that the water change shifted the old meds.Penicillin is known to affect filters and water quality .

A bigger tank is needed for those two methinks.It might cut down on the workload for you too.



Last edited by longhairedgit at 29-Nov-2005 05:31

[font color="#C00000"] I recently bought 2 large oscars for my 75g tank... one is 11in and the other 13inch... the 11in oscar put up the most fight getting from petstore to my house(thrailing around).. after a couple days that same fish had a fungal infection, which I believe was caused by stress so I started treating him with maracyn.. the first few days of treatment the fungus started disappearing.. but then it stopped.. its not getting worse or better... and both my fish are starting to tilt to the side and are really sluggish?!? what shuld I do? and my water looks horrible.. I can barely see my fish anymore unless they're at the glass.. I did 25% water changes for the past 3 days and its still just as cloudy!! I tried several algae killers and nothing... theres even a white film over my fish now and everything in the tank.. I stopped treatment because it seems to be getting worse and I added new carbon to the filter to try to clear the water... but the water just isn't clearing up. The ammonia and nitrite levels are as low as can be, but my tank is like a light brown cloud. Ive been treating them since a week ago. I really don't want them to die. any suggestions would be extremely appreciated.. thank you
-Christine [/font]

becuz i did a 75% change... and the pennicillin has been in the water since 6am... i dunno why dont u ask my fish who are now swimming... maybe they can tell u

You just started the med today, how can it already be doing it's job THAT FAST ?



The Amazon Nut...

actually.. I went and got the water tested today... the water quality is fine.. thanks for your suggestions. Penicillin really seems to be doing the job

Cory Addict is totally on the mark here.
I've owned several oscars and it just makes sense.

Adding 2 oscars to a 75 would indeed cause a cycle to occur, and I question (sounding very like Bensaf now) the accuracy of your test kits. Would you be using strip tests or liquid tests ? The cloudyness would be a bacteria bloom caused by 2 oscars waste. This happened to me once, when adding ONE oscar to a 90g which was not cycled... The cloudyness occured a couple weeks after adding oscar.

Oscars need approx 55 gal apiece so definately without question find another home for one of them.... Altough I suggest waiting until your oscar is better before taking it to the fishstore, for the reasons below..

1. It's not good practice to drop a sick fish to a fishstore. And such a move right now will only stress your sick oscar more, maybe resulting in the death of your oscar.

2. Chances are it's a shared water supply at the store, and your oscar could easily catch a secondary infection in it's weakened condition, resulting in the death of your oscar. Or, if oscar has a disease it could spread to other fish.

Best to leave it where it is at the present moment, until it is feeling better...

Cut down feeding to once a day or maybe every other day, to reduce bioload at the present moment.

Definately a '2nd opinion' water test is in order.

Welcome to the site, and glad you're getting some good help. Hope the oscars get better



The Amazon Nut...

Is this a new tank?

I personally wouldn't use any meds right now. Meds are very hard on already weak fish. If this indeed a water quality issue, which is what it sounds like, you want to make sure the water quality is good before expecting any sort of success in using medications.

The "fungus" may even simply be extra slime secreted by the fishes' skin, which often happens when the water quality is not what it should be.

If you cannot return the fish, get some New Improved Cycle and some Ammo-Lock to help the fish get through the cycle.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

thanks... I did a 75% water change today(took them out while doing this).. and started them on penicillin... but I'm a bit worried.. they seem alot worse off then when the one fish first started getting sick a week ago.. they're both at the bottom not even moving as they hav been for the past few days. They have what looks like a stringy algae growing on them and its on the tank decor too. I washed all the tank decor and everything is clean in the tank... but the fish are just at the bottom with their bodies tilted like their on their death bed. any more suggestions would be great... shuld I double up with any other meds? I'm unsure if this infection is just fungal anymore.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/EkkieChick/8228af71.jpg

Was the tank cycled?

If not, the addition of two large Oscars to a new tank would produce enough ammonia to kill any fish. The bioload equivalent to what you just put into your tank is about the same as 300 neon tetras.

It defintiely sounds like poor water quality is the root of your problems with the tank. My suggestion is to do a 75% water change on the tank (because the ammonia and nitrite are most likely at very dangerous levels), and to bring at least one of the Oscars back to the store. A 75 gallon tank is barely big enough for one Oscar, let alone two.

If you return one of the Oscars, bring a separate water sample with you so the employees can test it (tell them to give you the specific numbers). If you tell us the results of the tests for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, we will be better able to help you.

Good luck.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Could be bacterial die off in the tank leading to cloudiness, it can also seriously de-oxygenate the water.25% water changes are actually not that big given the situation.

Get on those water changes and try alternative brands of meds.

Last edited by longhairedgit at 28-Nov-2005 05:27