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Good morning,<br><br>Well, this post may be too late to save the fish but any information would be appreciated to prevent a repeat later. It may be a bit long but I wanted to make sure I had included everything I could think of.<br><br>My daughter received an aquarium for Christmas and I have been helping her with it. We have had a Betta for some time now and several sources indicated that we could move the Betta to a larger tank and even add a few other fish. It was understood they were not to be too showy or too brightly colored so the Betta would not mistake them for another male of his species. We decided on mollies (3 in all: a white/silver, a black and a dalmation) and added them to the tank with him. It was peaceful for all of 3 minutes before the Betta started to attack the black molly (the smallest of the bunch). We quickly returned the Betta to his original tank where he has stayed ever since.<br><br>The white/silver molly seemed to be in some sort of shock from the very beginning and went into seclusion in the back of the tank near the bottom. He died the next day. The dalmation molly was sluggish from the beginning and appeared to have some tail damage we did not notice until after returning from the pet store. He floated vertically near the surface of the tank and later went to the same spot the white one had been and died a day later. The black molly lasted the longest and was acting fairly normally until his last day. He started into the same sluggish behavior the other 2 had and again went to the same secluded spot in the back of the tank to die. He did, however, seem to have a opaque area on his tail and a large white spot over his eye in approximately the same area as where the Betta had bitten him a few days earlier.<br><br>Prior to adding the mollies, we allowed almost 3 days for the water to "settle" before adding any fish. We added Tetra's Aqua Safe (Conditioner w/ Anti-chlorine) and Easy Balance (w/ Nitroban) in the recommended doses the first day. The day we got the mollies we had the water tested and added a small small amount of another ammonia reducer upon the recomendation of the pet store tech. All other factors were said to be "within acceptable levels." The water is filtered, aerated, heated and lighted (during the day). The filter insert is fresh and the water temperature averages between 75 and 78 degrees F. We usually leave the light on for 10 to 12 hours a day.<br><br>When it became obvious that the mollies were not going to last, we purchased and added 2 female red swordtails to the tank. They have been active and normal the whole time and appear to have a healthy appetite. The mollies never took a bit of food the entire time they were in the tank.<br><br>Again, as I said before, a bit long but any advice would be greatly apreciated!<br><br>Thanks,<br>Bryan<br>Mississippi, USA<br><br>

Firstly, Welcome to FP.

As for the tank, can you answer a few more questions;
what size is it?
Do you know about the cycle?
Did you add anything to help start the cycle?
And have you done any water changes yet to the tank?
Do you have any test kits for Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates?

Please give us this info, and I think we will be able to help you easily and quickly.



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There is always a bigger fish...

Looks like your tank is not cycled yet and you have some ammonia/nitrites in there. You should take a look at the FAQ of this web site and read on how to start a new tank. A word of advice, do NOT rely on the guy at the LFS to test your water. Buy yourself a test kit, about $20, and do it yourself. I find it's a must if you want to have fun with your tank/fish...and not spend your time picking up dead fish at the bottom and returning to the LFS only to be told, " Well, you do have a bit of ammo in there but otherwise everything looks normal" Yeah, right! That's why my fish are all dead now... because it's alright.

Livebearers are pretty sensitive creatures and perhaps not the best suited to cycle a tank. I would buy a more hardy fish. Rasboras or some tetras might be more tough. Anyway you look at it and how ever tough your fish will be, you will need to do frequent water changes in order to keep those "fins" alive during the cycling of the tank.

As for Bettas, some are aggressive, some are less. How can you tell before buying... well, you can't. But one thing is sure, any fish that are slow moving, long finned will most likely learn at their expense NOT to move to close to a Betta. I have NEVER seen a betta injure a fish to death, unless I really wanted it dead ( meaning, putting injured or sick guppies ). I only did it once because I had to kill the guppies anyway and wanted to see my Betta in "action". Cruel little critter I must say. Some of you might say the same thing about me. But hey, I needed to see it so I would better understand the nature of the beast! Anyway, I have kept bettas ( one at a time ) with Angels, clown loaches, danios, tetras, livebearers... name it, it's been with. Never had a "real" problem.

Bottom line is that I would not put the blame on the Betta. From what you said, the fish you bought sounded already sick or very weak to begin with. Maybe a switch of LFS would be in order. Check the water in the tanks there, how the fish look. Is the place clean? Are the fish healthy?

A successful aquarium begins with good water quality, a good LFS to get fish from and last but not least, an informed, interested aquarist that will take care of it. Don't be discouraged, it's not like you have to read for a year to get the info. A couple of hours will get you started with the basic information you need to be successful.... and not be fooled by a LFS SALES clerk.

Important note : This forum is a good place to get good advice so don't hesitate and ask away. People will respond to you and help you. Furthermore, the web site contains LOADS of helpful information by skillful aquarists. Make sure to VOTE FOR THIS SITE

and....

Welcome to FishProfiles.com !!!

Sponge

EDIT: Wow, didn't see that in the meantime of me posting two other people were posting as well

Hi Bryan, and welcome to FP

Sorry to see that your first entry has to be such a sad one.

Let me make a guess on what might have been the demise of your Mollies:

If I read that right then the Betta attacked after the Mollies have been added. That means that you just got the Mollies from the LFS, right? At this time they were certainly stressed out, the store tank is usually not a pleasure to live in, the transport to the home. Then the Betta attacking them adds a lot of additional stress. I bet you their immune system was way down at that point. Bacteria and the such are always present in water and wait opportunistically for their chance to “attack”. And that is just what they did.

A few other options are:

- The Mollies were already sick
- They have been in a tank with salt addition (as they can be held very well, if not best, in brackish water) and didn’t like the pure freshwater in your tank which weakened them additionally
- Your cycling did not work and helped in the sad process. I have not heard of the products you used to cycle the tank, nobody here yet seems to have raved about them. Also, you add a lot of chemicals to “help” the cycling, usually not the preferred method. The swords might do well because they are not being chased by a Betta and because you have only 2.

When people recommended that you could add the Betta to a larger tank ( btw, how large? ) I would assume they mentioned that it can depend on the individual Betta himself as the level of aggression varies by fish.

Hope this helps a little and you have more luck with the swords (which most likely are pregnant),

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 02-Jan-2006 10:27

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

ACID : How much commission we should get for the promotion of FP.com ? We share, ok?

Sponge :%)

Some answers to follow-up questions:

Tank size: 10 gallon "kit" set-up

Test Kit: No, but I will be buying one later today! Any suggestions? The kits I have looked at seemed to include test for water pH, nitrites, nitrates (I assume the nitrite/nitrate levels reflect waste and ammonia levels). What else should be checked regularly?

Cycle: Please elaborate as to what is meant by "the cycle."

Water replacement: Just minor evaporation replacement (probably not more than a cup or so)

Addtional: The 2 female swordtails still seem to be thriving. I was thinking of adding a third or possibly a fourth....maximum number suggested for this size tank?

Test Kit: No, but I will be buying one later today! Any suggestions? The kits I have looked at seemed to include test for water pH, nitrites, nitrates (I assume the nitrite/nitrate levels reflect waste and ammonia levels). What else should be checked regularly?

The most important tests for a new tank are ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. As for ph, this is more for specialized fish IMO. As most of the fish you will be purchasing, will be from the same type of water as you have. Being that you will be getting them from a "local" fish store. But ph is another good one to test sometimes. The reason for the other test mentioned are explained later.

Cycle: Please elaborate as to what is meant by "the cycle."

The cycle is a term that refers to the growing of beneficial bacteria. These are what convert the fishes' waste products in the water. Fish waste is in ammonia form. Firstly there are bacteria that will grow, that will convert the ammonia to nitrite, notice the "i" there. Then another form of bacteria will start to grow that will convert the nitrite to nitrate, notice the "a" there. Water changes remove the nitrates as they build up. Now the importance of it all; ammonia is very poisonous to the fish. nitrites, are less poisonous. And nitrates are like air pollution, are only harmful when they become in large amounts. The tank takes time for these colonies of beneficial bacteria to grow. Just a couple or few weeks. If you are cycling with live fish, as you are, then you need to watch the ammonia levels closely, and do water changes if they get dangerously high. Once your cycle is complete, then you should never see any ammonia readings in your tank. Only nitrate levels. Water changes should be done when nitrates reach a level of 10-20. With 30 ppm being the extreme highest for healthy fish. My own regime is a 25% water change when the levels are at about 15ppm. But I usually just do 25% per week. It all depends on how many fish you keep in the tank, or what is more commonly known as your bio-load (biological waste amount). The more of a bioload you have, the quicker the increase in nitrAtes. So the need for more water changes.
Important note; never change more than about 50% of the water, as you will also be removing a lot of your beneficial bacteria, and thus cause a need for them to grow back. This in turn could cause the tank to do what is refered to as a mini cycle. Though not as bad as starting a cycle from the beginning, it could cause some detrimental effects to the health of some fish. Because it will allow the ammonia levels to rise again, until the bacteria of the cycle can grow back and take up the additional ammonia.

Water replacement: Just minor evaporation replacement (probably not more than a cup or so)

If/when you start doing water changes to clean the tank, you should not need to do top off replacements.

Addtional: The 2 female swordtails still seem to be thriving. I was thinking of adding a third or possibly a fourth....maximum number suggested for this size tank?

Depends on which type you have. If they are just the common ones, like those with the colorful names, brick red, pinapple, etc, then a male or two added would be just fine. But wait till your cycle has completed. As for complete stocking, if you are staying with the smaller 1-2 inch fish (when full grown), you can use the old addige of 1 inch of fish per gallon, or for you would be 10 inches of fish. But this only relates to those small fish.

HTH....

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There is always a bigger fish...

oh and Bob, you get the commission of added knowlege from new comers. And the enjoyment of passing on knowlege.

And since I see you are doing a great job of it, I think I'll double your commission, lol.

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There is always a bigger fish...

About the CYCLE : I will simply add to what Acid already told you. Nitrates can also be consumed by plants. Plants will eat up SOME (not all) of the Nitrates and is also a good thing to have in an aquarium. It gives off oxygen during the day and gets rid of some of your Nitrates. IMPORTANT : No matter how many plants you have in there, it will NEVER replace the weekly or by-weekly water change you MUST do. I agree with Acid about a good 25% water change. Some do it once a week, some by-weekly. Depends on what filter you have an greatly on the bio-load of your tank. For example, goldfish are messy so they need more frequent water changes. Little danios are not messy at all, so they require water changes less often. It's all a question of balance. You will learn it as you go along. No worries.



Last edited by Sponge_Bob at 02-Jan-2006 12:16

Gee ACID, thx man!

Have I been the victim of my own joke here? Hum...

Cheers bro !

Sponge

Bryan,

Just to add my 2 cents (and to increase the possible confusion):

ACIDRAIN’s explanation of the cycle is excellent, I can never wrap it in such few sentences.

I disagree on the 50% maximum of water changes though, as in my opinion beneficial bacteria are mostly located on the substrate and any other surface in the tank (like plants and ornaments, for example) and the filter media. Although I do not usually remove more than 50% in my tank, as it is not really necessary, I certainly have done 70% with no negative side effects (for example to remove tannins from water discoloration cause by driftwood).

And as to plants removing just some of the nitrates, well – if all else is right then they will remove so much nitrate that you actually have to add some to keep the plants happy.

But for now, just get your tank settled and we will worry about “advanced” topics later ,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club