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Over the last week I've lost 9 of my 10 adult angels. Overnight a white film will cover most of their body. Once it appears they last anywhere from 12hrs to 4 or 5 days. The only angel to survive is a Koi. I've also got black neon tetra's, a couple of oto's, amano shrimp and a blue ram. none of them have been affected by it. All the disease discriptions I've seen talk about similar problems but nothing describes it covering the body. I did have trouble with the water temps...the substrate heater caused the temps to be about 86 degrees. I got that fixed about a week before the stuff started showing up. I've got 3 new small angels (had them for about 4-5 weeks) finally one of them is starting to show signs of it. I've treaded with Pimafix for the last week. Any ideas????

well the problems must of came from the small angels(happens to me when i had adults and added new ones]:|) anyway this guy is probably done, sry. but just change the water and try using tank buddies fungus clear to prevent other fishes from getting it.

jsparkman,

Unfortunately I don't really know what the problem is.

Just a thought, does it start at the head? In this case it could be an agressive form of Mouth Fugus. The quick spreading might also have to do with a weakened immune system based on your heater problems. How quickly did the tank temperature raise to 86 and then returned to normal (maybe too fast)?

That would also explain why your new Angels or just now coming down with it.

If that is the problem then it would be important to treat the whole tank as fast as possible with the appropriate medication (don't know what that is though), otherwise it might spread quickly to all other fish.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The temp took about 2 days to drop from 86 to 80. It seems to affect the body all at the same time, doesn't look like it starts at the mouth then spreads. Things seem to have settled down. The small one is looking a little better, it's eating so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

James

James,

I am keeping my fingers crossed with you.

Keep a close eye on all your fish in the tank.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Just when you think things are getting better you get a new surprise. Just got home and found my little blue ram with sores on it. One looks red and swollen (left side near vent) The rest of them are kind of white and fuzzy. Not like the white film that was on the angels. Here are some pics of the ram and the other angels in the tank. There's not a single spot on the angels.

http://community.webshots.com/album/480589224UCpeRA

James

A likely cause of this would be Trichodiniasis, a protozoan infection, its common as hell, kills discus, angels and many other cichlids including oscars who seem to be more susceptible to it than tetras etc.The symptoms you describe fit perfectly with the average perameters of the infection. Treatment is metronidazole again. Many protozoa are almost omnipresent in aquarium water- and in the fish, but it generally takes stress, a complicating disease or injury to kick start it all.The temperature hike could have started it all off.

Seems like a fair percentage if ailments on fp at the moment are easily explained if you know your protozoa, its becoming clear to me that protozoa are responsible for at least a quarter of the "mystery deaths" we see one here. Check into it people, protozoa should be as much a part of your fishkeeping vocabulary as finrot, whitespot and worms.

Best of luck with your fish, and remember that protozoa can live in aquaria months after the fish have died, so no reintroductions of fish until either youve treated the tank or sanitised it thoroughly. That means EVERY porous surface including the filter.


ps mouth fungus generally occurs on the mouth, and if it spread it would be visible, it doesnt abandon the area of initial infection, and the fish would continue to have its lips get worse. This has no symptoms in common with mouth fungus, although fungus could act as a catalyst via stress and open wounds for protozoa and a whole other range of diseases to take hold.The cycle of infection seems almost to quick for it to be fungus, fungus generally kills slowly unless the fish has circulatory ailments or the water is just plain filthy. Im not discounting mouth fungus completely, since its often found to be a contributing agent to trichodina infections. If you get some protozin it should treat both.

and....

having just checked out the pics of your rams etc...

read this.

Trichodina sp. (Trichodiniasis)

A) This disease is caused by a group of peritrichal ciliated protozoans. The organisms are saucer-shaped, 50 microns diameter, with rows of cilia at either end and a macro and micro nucleus. When viewed dorsoventrally the parasite appears as an ornate disk with a characteristic ring of interlocking denticles forming a circle in the middle of the organism.

B) These are observed on most fresh and saltwater fish. This protozoa is relatively common on many fish and is not always associated with disease.

C) Clinically fish usually exhibit flashing and become lethargic. There is an increase in mucus production causing a white to bluish haze on the skin. The skin may develop ulcers and the fins may fray. If the gills are involved the fish may have severe respiratory distress. Histologically masses of organisms are attached by adhesive discs and denticles of exoskeleton to the epidermis. The underlying epithelial cells undergo necrosis. There is secondary hyperplasia and hypertrophy of the gill epithelium.

D) Transmission is by direct contact with infected fish and or contaminated water.

So that would be reddened gills, lumps and body mucus then... just like the pics.


Damn im good
Metronidazole, high dose, and quick about it sir ! Protozin would probably do. in case youve never seen it, you can order it,but dont hang around, I feel in this case you have hours rather than days to act as the more extreme symptoms (the sores)are already showing.


Heres a random link to illustrate.



http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/protozin.htm





Last edited by longhairedgit at 19-Oct-2005 01:15

Does anyone know where to get Protozin in the US?

James

Trichodina is usually treated with medications normally used for ich, not metronidazole. It does look like that on the ram but because such medications can be very stressful and do more harm than good in case of a misdiagnosis I have a few other questions:

- Are the fish showing behavioural symptoms? ie. flashing, lethargy, loss of appetite, etc. (similar to ich if you've seen that). If it's trichodina you WILL see flashing.

- Have you run tests on your water for the usual parameters? (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)

If you're satisfied that it's trichodina or a similar external protozoan, go ahead and treat with either:

-Potassium permanganate (sometimes available at pharmacies, pond centres). [link=Read this]http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/potassium%20permanganate.htm" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link]

-Malachite Green & Formalin based treatments: Jungle Ich Guard II, Quick Cure, Rid Ich +, etc.

Those products are worth trying, be sure to increase aeration on the tank during treatment, it's also a good idea to turn the lights off. One note on the above products, they will nuke any live plants you have in the tank.

They have a lose of appetite and are lethargic. Although the ram is showing none of these signs. This morning when I fed she was right in the middle of it all getting her share!

James

Without flashing, I doubt it's trichodina but it could still be some kind of protozoan, possibly costia or chilodonella. With those symptoms I would try Jungle Parasite Clear. It's a good broad spectrum med that works for both internal and external parasites, so it should take care of it. You can get Parasite Clear at most LFSes in the USA, Petsmart and most chains carry Jungle products.

You may also want to pick up some Anti-Parasite Medicated Fish Food and treat with it at the same time, also made by Jungle labs. You can use both of those meds together for a very effective parasite treatment. The anti parasite food is good to have anyway because it's a good idea to deworm new fish in QT when you get them to prevent parasites in the fish you already have.

Also, check your water chemistry. There is usually some kind of stressor involved in tipping the balance and making a relatively harmless level of parasitic infection in the tank get out of control and start causing serious damage. In this case it was probably temperature that did it, but with any outbreak of disease it's always good practice to run water tests and do some extra water changes before you reach for any medications.

Ok ,to clear up some confusion here, ICK - (cryptocaryon irritans) is an infection of marine fish, it has severe problems crossing the osmotic barrier an cannot live in freshwater for more than 6 weeks and is therefore unlikely to cause severe infection in freshwater fish.It does however give identical symptoms to trichodiniasis including the vigorous sores, hence the symptomic confusion.

ICH is Ichthyophthirious multifiliis- otherwise known as whitespot. This is well known, treatable and again gives very similar symptoms, but the sores are generally less ounced than in trichodiniasis.

Flicking can occur in ALL THREE INFECTIONS, as can loss of appetite, although this is a choice symptom on part of the fish and neither symptom is conducive to or particularly associated with either trichodiniasis, ichthyophthirious,or cryptocaryon.THESE SYMPTOMS ARE ALL EQUALLY VARIABLE IN ALL THREE INFECTIONS DEPENDING ON THE FISH.Flicking is probably the least descriptive symptom of all three- ive seen fish flick because of a multitude of different parasites,water quality, injuries, even skin cancer, even emotional frustration or nursing bites when they lose a fight. Basically fish flick because they itch. Its about as unspecific a symptom as you can get.In this case the surface of the rams skin has sores , they will itch or hurt and they probably will get flicked, whether you see it or not, and only if the fish chooses to.

The route of transmission is very similar and even reproduction is similar, and you guessed it , they are all protozoans , one ciliate, and two flagellate. Metronidazole is effective on all three, because not only does it have broad spectrum antibiotic effects, but it also inhibits cell reproduction in single celled and protozoan animals,its usually completely invasive and will reach all organs in the body when ingested , including the complete gastrointestinal tract and the complete renal system, dermis, bloodstream, and muscle tissue.The only downside with metronidazole is that it does very occasionally cause nerve damage.

Ich treatments are generally effective only realiably on ich ( based as they often are on formalin), jungle parasite clear is another good choice as it is a general treatment, and pretty much just as effective as protozin.

So basically I dont care what broad spectrum anti -protozoan you use, but you must do it quickly, as your fish are showing advanced stages of any of the described diseases.


Last edited by longhairedgit at 19-Oct-2005 22:01

Ok ,to clear up some confusion here, ICK - (cryptocaryon irritans) is an infection of marine fish,

I'm not sure who is confused here?

The reason I don't believe it would be trichodina with a lack of flashing is because compared to most other ciliates, well trich itches like hell. Rather than being totally lethargic, the fish will usually itch like mad to get the damn things off. It's impossible to be sure without a microscopic examination, but based on what I've seen and learned from my own experience and time spent with a local veterinarian and with my university's science department in general, I doubt it's trich. It just doesn't fit the usual profile.

they are all protozoans , one ciliate, and two flagellate.

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, Cryptocaryon irritans and the trichodinids are all ciliates actually. Check your sources again. Chilodonella is another ciliate, costia is a flagellate.

Metronidazole is effective on all three, because not only does it have broad spectrum antibiotic effects, but it also inhibits cell reproduction in single celled and protozoan animals,its usually completely invasive and will reach all organs in the body when ingested , including the complete gastrointestinal tract and the complete renal system, dermis, bloodstream, and muscle tissue.

I would like to see some proof of this, as I have never seen metronidazole recommended in the scientific, veterinary or aquaculturist literature for anything other than intestinal flagellates. I am aware of its use as a broad spectrum antibiotic. I suppose it could work but I doubt it would be as effective as other treatments available on the market for external parasites. Some kind of academic reference would be greatly appreciated on this.

Ich treatments are generally effective only realiably on ich ( based as they often are on formalin)

Hang on a moment here. First of all, based on what I've read about protozin, the best educated guess I can make regarding its contents is that it is a combination of formalin and malachite green, possibly with other active ingredients. Secondly, formalin is NOT used exclusively for the treatment of ich. If you disagree, you might want to check out the [link=Merck Veterinary Manual]http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170204.htm" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link] for one:

"Formalin is approved for use in catfish, salmonids, and penaeid (saltwater) shrimp. It is effective in eliminating protozoan parasites and monogenetic trematodes from the external surface of fish."

Formalin is very effective in the treatment of ich, but also almost any other external protozoan (this includes chilodonella, thrichodinids, ichthyodobo, tetrahymena, oodinium, you name it). Also monogenetic trematodes as stated above, most notably Gyrodactylus and Dactylogyrus, skin and gill flukes.

If you have sources that claim otherwise, I would like to see them.

First of all the uses of metronidazole vary with the dosage , its even used to treat ulcerations in the brain, it is most certainly not just for afflictions of the gut, although it is very effective as used commonly for this purpose.

Take a looky. This is a description of the uses of metronidazole.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100001051.html

The uses of metronidazole in fish are so widely published on the net that I found possibly 500 articles in ten minutes about people recommending it for use with trich,ich and ick, including vets, pharmaceutical companies, and universities that I actually consider it pointless linking them all here, a simple google search will suffice for proof.

The main problem I have with formalin is that it often causes oxgen starvation in mature tanks and ponds, so I favour metronidazole as the safer of the two. Formalin also has so many worldwide contraindictions of use because of its carcinogenic properties that authorities in the uk have actually considered banning it on more than one occasion. Even in the US, distributors of formalin require one of its components (formaldehyde) to be strictly regulated for concentration, this could have the knock- on effect that formalin is less effective as a treatment than it used to be.

The exposure of fish to formalin over extended periods is not desireable for basic toxicity reasons so again metronidazole wins out. No doubting that formalin will treat many protozoa and flukes too, but its precisely that level of lethality that makes using it hazardous, and since many protozoans manage to establish themselves in porous surfaces and become deep tissue infections in fish, youve a better chance in nailing them with metronidazole as treatment with it can be maintained for a longer period in relative safety. In cases where inverts are involved, often reinfecting tanks within days, a repeated treatment of metronidazole would be better, as a) it tends not to kill inverts in the first place, as formalin often does, and b), can be safely be present in the tank long enough to catch the life cycle of the protozoa completely.Since protozoa are more likely to be in the gut of inverts rather than in the exoskeleton, its ability to clear the gut would yet again seem very useful.

Metronidazole is also suitable for intramuscular and intravenous injection depending on the formulation, something formaldehyde would not be - so ironically it is far more suitable for internal treatment than formalin would ever be.In addition it can be used on a greater range of species with comparative safety. Most organisms find exposure to concentrations of formalin and formaldehyde toxic, if not lethal, fortunately some fish actually have their own form of formaldehyde and as such are resistant to it chemically, although obviously there will be fluid and tissue barriers to prevent it from accessing the entire biology of the fish, metronidazole suffers no such systemic barriers.In fact one of the main side effects of metronidazole are brain and nerve related, pretty much proving that as a systemic drug it gets practically everywhere.

I find it ironic that you use the arguement of formalin being effective on ectoparasites as convincing of its effectiveness. Protozoans, especially burrowing protozoans like these will basically become functional endoparasites once in tissue and the bloodstream. Given the choice they will also multiply within the fish rather than outside of it. Your chances of introducing formalin to the bloodstream in levels that will kill the protozoa are remote, compared to a drug like metronidazole ( although there will be some penetration because of the osmotic properies of fish) that is actually designed to be a systemic. In terms of a contact killing toxin formalin is great, but metronidazole is far safer.

I will admit to being incorrect on the cilate /flaggelate thing, I was referencing incorrectly, they are ciliates, however it makes little difference in this case. What I was trying to refer to was the differing types of colonisation that occur, and the penetration of meds is important in this regard. See this link if you wanted to know more about protozoans and their types and lifestyles.

http://faculty.fmcc.suny.edu/mcdarby/Animals&PlantsBook/Animals/01-Protozoa.htm

Another thing - i recommended protozin in the first place, I know whats in it, basically its the fact that formalin is used in compound with other ingredients that makes it more effective over a range of ailments, but on its own its not a match for metronidazole.The widespread use of formalin is basically down to its easy "shelf storage" properties, and as far as drugs go its a good mixer.

The antifungal I used on my rainbowfish a way back basically killed my filter, and having sent samplesoff for analysis it was decreed that the aerobic bacteria in my filter has been killed off by formaldehyde, starting a massive bacterial death in the filter. I was very lucky not to lose £500 of fish . So why risk it when theres an antibacterial antiprotozoan med out there that definately wont affect the filter?

And since all the protozoans we are talking about burrow into skin and cause cysts I still refuse to believe that all of them arent bloody irritating. Theyre all gonna cause flicking. Provide me with some unempeachable data taken from electrical nerve activity on infected fish, and I might believe it.



Last edited by longhairedgit at 20-Oct-2005 23:21

Take a looky. This is a description of the uses of metronidazole.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100001051.html

I am well aware of the indications for metronidazole in people. However, that is fairly irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking freshwater ornamental fish.

The uses of metronidazole in fish are so widely published on the net that I found possibly 500 articles in ten minutes about people recommending it for use with trich,ich and ick, including vets, pharmaceutical companies, and universities that I actually consider it pointless linking them all here, a simple google search will suffice for proof.

I googled it. Yesterday and again this morning. I found a few SW resources that recommended it for Cryptocaryon spp., but not a single one stating any effect on I. mutifiliis or trichodinids. Most of what I came up with were articles that talked about protozoans in general, with metronidazole listed as the preferred treatment for hexamita. I. multifiliis and trichodinids are treated with the usual external parasiticides. To be sure I wasn't missing anything, I also took a look at my university's database and came up with nothing again. If there are that many sources out there, I find it odd that I've never seen a single one. I've read books about fish pharmacology cover to cover and haven't seen any reference to the use of metronidazole for anything other than intestinal flagellated protozoa, especially hexamita and spironucleus: [link=Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals Used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases: A Manual of Fish Pharmacology and Materia Medica]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039803852X/qid=1129902963/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1672159-3144746?v=glance&s=books" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link] and [link=Applied Fish Pharmacology (Aquaculture Series)]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0412621800/qid=1129902963/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-1672159-3144746?v=glance&s=books" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link] are 2 good ones that are easy to come by. I don't need to see every single supposed link, but a few from reliable sources that recommend metro. for fw ich or trichodinids would be greatly appreciated.

I am very familiar with the effects and hazards of formalin treatment, I've been using it to treat protozoa in my own fish and in assisting others for years. My veterinarian also uses formalin routinely for external protozoan infections with great success, as do many other professionals I'm in contact with. I have a close family friend that heads the marine biology department at a very respected university here, he advocates the use of formalin for most external protozoa. It works very well with little impact on the fish as long as you're careful with it. I have used it successfully without any noticeable impact on my biological filtration, not just in my tank but in others as well.

a) it tends not to kill inverts in the first place, as formalin often does

I keep inverts, and have treated tanks with formalin that contain them without losses. I know other hobbyists do the same. Freshwater shrimp and snails specifically. Again, I'm aware of the risks and use it with caution. Generally, it's far better to remove inverts during treatment of any disease if at all possible.

Since protozoa are more likely to be in the gut of inverts rather than in the exoskeleton, its ability to clear the gut would yet again seem very useful.

You'll have a very hard time completely eliminating every parasitic protozoan and potential pathogen from an aquarium system. A sterile system isn't necessary, fish have evolved to cope with mild levels of parasitic infestation without harm. In most cases, problems happen when conditions favour the reproduction of parasites (organic pollution, weakened fish population, overcrowding, etc.), populations spiral out of control, parasites attack the weakened fish more aggressively and the natural defenses of the fish begin to break down. Some level of parasitic infestation is normal in fish and does not warrant treatment until it gets out of hand and starts causing them harm. If a few bugs escape treatment, it should not pose a problem as long as the fish and aquarium are taken care of properly.