FishProfiles.com Message Forums

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060913/ap_on_re_ca/canada_college_shooting

The good thing is that they didn't say anyone had died except the perpetrator.

Looks like there might be another wave of Columbine-type fallout.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

It said a young woman was slain

><>

That's just not right!! He didn't even care who he was shooting!!


grrrrr

---

"it's the neck, it creaks under the weight of too much heavy thinking."

I must not have seen that. What a waste.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Well when you have the gun section next to the toy section in your local giant superstore beginning with W.............

One student died at the scene. At least another six are in critical condition. The gunman was apparantly shot and killed by police.


(And Bonny, the shooting occurred in Montreal, Canada. Not the U.S.)

Aye, but arn't your gun laws similar? Think i remember going into a W in toronto and seeing the guns next to the toy section.

Could be wrong and it could have been a T in california (i've been accross the pond too many times?)

school shootings are still incredibly incredibly rare, despite what the media will tell you. and even moreso in canada i'm sure.

---

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

but arn't your gun laws similar?

Not even close. Canada's gun laws resemble Great Britain's a whole lot more than America's. This is just one example of how out of control the youth of today are compartive to the past. This has nothing to do with "gun laws". Anyone that wants a gun will get one no matter what the law is....period.

---

~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

i don't see it as out of control youth so much as out of the loop parents. messed up people are going to be messed up, but attentive parents can take an active role in their kids' lives and hopefully catch this kind of behavior before it turns fatal.

---

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

Not to pour fuel onto the fire, but like Larry The Cable Guy says, "If guns are responsible for killing someone, then my pencil is responsible for my spelling."

Guns do not kill, it's the idiot behind the gun that does and no amount of "Gun Control" will stop that.

Jim

---

Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

I agree with you and Larry the cable guy old timer.
As far as the parenting comment, I have to say that a parent can do many things but from the time their children begin school and start widening their information base a parent does not have near the effect on their children as peers in class rooms do.
I can site last week as an example... My grandaughter in kindergarten (age 5) came home from school with news about 9/11 and the bad thing that happened, plus told us where babies came from. Now no matter how we discuss this with her, her first impression is "from the kids at school."
Jan

Personally I think this sort of thing proves that psychos and criminals will always get hold of guns, be they legal or not . Most offenses are committed with illegal weapons anyway, all canada and the uk's governments did by banning casual ownership of such weapons did was persecute people who wanted to own guns for defence and for sporting purposes.They were never the threat.

I tend to think that governments put too much impetus on the weapon rather than the social causes and the athropology of humans that actually do the killing. You can kill someone with a kitchen knife, a pencil ,a housebrick, homemade explosives, whatever. There will always be a tool that someone can buy, make or improvise in order to kill someone. Lets be honest , in the hands of most people even a car can be a lethal weapon, and to be fair cars kill many more people than guns.

The gun laws make absolutely no statistical improvement on serious gun crimes, and serious villains will always find guns from wherever they can, and hold them illegally. All it means is the guns they use will be off the books,harder to track and the illegal arms industry get a bonus payout. When stricter gun laws were introduced to the uk pretty much several thousand guns went "underground" and mysteriously disappeared overnight.Only last week a man was arrested for having several hundred guns in a single house, and for one man to be able to hold that many unnoticed for many years shows you how many weapons are out there being traded illegally on a daily basis.

Behind every nutter shooting down a load of students in a school is a whole spectrum of psychological problems , social conditioning, and skewed experiences and perspectives, often rooted in sociopathy,massive daily stress, emotional immaturity and the basic inability to cope, then on the flipside are those people for whom the internal animal is very strong, who simply react violently in a vengeful way to social persecution,injustice,and are martyrs to their own machievellian needs for whom killing is no stretch for the imagination.

Until we , and through us, our governments get our social lives and life quality to a reasonable standard, and are more inclusive to members of our communities, particularly those who are alienated and forced to live with personal dualities in a lonely context are successfully outed, and treated , and helped, this sort of thing will always happen from time to time. We live in an age of high population but intense depersonalisation.In these circumstances its easy to forget that the people surrounding you are real people, with lives thoughts and emotions, and just as in war, when a target is depersonalised by stereotyping, or by alienation, they become that much easier to kill. We have social trends in schools and companies, management speak, policies etc, that are not inclusive of real human interactive behaviour, and as long as our culture embraces these depersonalising factors where people are treated like robots and sheep, there will always be someone who feels different from the masses, and when a person feels truly alone,even if they have a likeable facade, they become capable of almost anything.

I think the nature of humanity can still surprise, both in its civility, but also in its viciousness, and its occassionally impersonal violence. Until the deeper meanings of this side are successfully explored, and recognised to be both a thing in themselves, but also as a thing brought about by social conditioning, and accountability for it taken, this sort of thing will always happen.

My personal opinion is that the answer to ending such violence lies in psychology, and using psychological help to help nip the dangerous behaviour in the bud.In this respect governments have to step up their efforts to not only curb the worst excesses of the depersonalisation that trains people to be their careers ,live artificial lives, and watch the trends of social groups that result from this, but also highten awareness of these issues to the general public, and enhance the social services abilities and enable them to take quicker action,and increase their availability to families and parents.

That to me is more protection than gun control can ever be.The person is the weapon, a gun , a knife whatever is only a tool.Take guns away they find their own, or use knives, Take the big knives away they use little ones. Take those away they use crossbows, stones ,sharp sticks and their bare hands. There will always be a tool for killing, but the mind is the greatest weapon.And the mind can be disarmed by making it happy.....

Well my point wasn't so much towards the accessability of guns, more towards the culture surrounding them. If you have guns in a supermarket then children will be around them from a young age and can grow to be a fantasised item.

The problem in the uk is slightly different, here guns are seen as glamourised and something that wields power (especially within the young african-british population).

True guns don't kill people, people kill people but it's a hell of a lot easyer to kill several people in one go with a gun than say a knife.

If that guy had gone into that canteen with a knife, chances are a large group of people could have jumped on him and disarmed him, true they would probably be injured but to a lesser extent than a gunshot to the face.

Interesting debate! I love it. There are some smart people here. I love your points git! I agree with you 100%

bonny, it's been my experience that the opposite is true. When a child is exposed to guns as an everyday item they are less intrigued and fascinated by them. My ex-husband is a law enforcement officer as was my dad....I grew up with guns around the house and so has my son. My son isn't anymore interested in guns than he is the coffee table or the microwave. He has been taught what a gun is and what it's for and he knows that he is never to touch it and he never has. He has his own BB gun that his dad helps him to shoot. He has a very healthy respect for guns and life. It seems to me that the kids that I knew that were endlessly fascinated by guns came from households where guns were "secrets" and not to be seen or talked about. These kids want to see what all the fuss is about and usually end up messing with them when the folks are away.

Not to mention the fact that the gun this guy in Canada used in not available ant any Wal-Mart. They sell hunting guns.....not assault rifles.

---

~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Very good points by all. And as you said Red that those children that are raised around guns and taught to properly respect them and instructed in their safe and proper handling as I was, my children were and my grandchildren are being taught, then we eliminate the "Fantasy" aspect of them.

Children that are not raised around weapons of any sort only see the "fantasy" side of them and their usage i.e., TV and movies, video games (where you push a button and everyone comes back to life), etc.. When a child is properly instructed in their usage and that they have a useful purpose for both sport, hunting and yes, self protection, then the curiousity factor is much diminished in that child.

As NRA's "Eddie Eagle" teaches to children, if you see a gun, Stop, Don't Touch and get an adult. This program is widely used in schools throughout the US and has been very successful. Many of our local school districts utilize this program and it has been acclaimed by both gun owners and non gun owners alike.

Jim

---

Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

Oh yeah, OT, my son loves Eddie Eagle!!! My ex used to bring those videos home from work and play them for him when he was about 3 years old and he would sing along and watch the movie. My son has learned from day 1 what to do and not do around guns. When your dad is a cop/border patrol agent for a living, guns will be a part of the landscape. My son can't wait to grow up and be acop/agent just like his dad ( ) He has no desire to be a mass murderer despite being around guns on a daily basis.

---

~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Children that are not raised around weapons of any sort only see the "fantasy" side of them and their usage i.e., TV and movies, video games (where you push a button and everyone comes back to life), etc

I don't agree. In the UK, for example, it is much rarer for children to be brought up around weapons, however we have lower per capita rates of violent juvenile crime.

It is too easy to blame video games, it's a lazy copout. Several peer reviewed studies have found that children from a young age can differentiate between fantasy and reality. Just because you can shoot in Half LIfe or CS: S, doesn't mean you will go out and shoot a real weapon at people, or stab a real weapon at people. Guns aren't the real killers, sure, but in the same way that using pointed fingers as "guns" when playing Cowboys and Indians 30 yrs ago didn't lead to school massacres, neither do video games and violent films.

-------------------------------------------------
I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

tiny,

I wasn't implying that video games cause all people to go out and shoot people. However, you can't tell me that the violence on TV, movies and yes, video games is not over the top and has not desensitised all of us as a whole.

I know that you will want to argue the point, but I remember when as a child sitting in a movie theater I would close my eyes and hide them behind my hands when the "Wolf Man" was on screen. Now due to the over saturation of every type of vicious attack, murder, rape, etc., etc., etc., broadcast at us daily in both real incidents, movies and animation it's almost to the point that we just yawn at such activities.

Along with this, and the soft handedness at which our courts deal with criminals, we get what we get. I would be the last person to say ban a movie, or a video game or any other such item, just as I will fight for my right to "Keep & Bear Arms" I will fight for your right to pursue those legal activities that you wish to do so, but again the gun did not kill the person, the idiot behind the gun did. And I believe in this incident he actually killed himself afterwards, which saved a lot of people a lot of tax dollars defending his rights and then making sure he was comfortable in a jail cell for the rest of his days, or in many cases released on parole after a very minimal sentence.

Jim

---

Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

oldtimer, they show those same scenes in those same movies and other things all over the world in so many countries, but yet it's only desensitizing us? i mean, hearing the words "i shot a man in reno, just to watch him die" didn't exactly inspire anyone to just go around shooting people. at least, not that i'm aware of.

and if you get a chance to watch a movie like "a clockwork orange", or even go as far back as the silent film era and there were plenty of violent movies produced as well as potentially desensitizing media created.

this violence is nothing more than something that has happened for as long as people have been gathering in cities. the only difference is that we have a 24/7, worldwide network of cameras and talking heads to tell us that it's worse now than ever. well, i don't believe that for one second. i think maybe it's more frequent than it used to be because there are roughly twice the number of people now than there were 50-60 years ago so the odds of things happening are going to go up.

i mean, the whole "copycat crime" that happens is only because someone sees the story on the news and thinks that they want that kind of attention from the media. i think if the media is to blame, it's only in the sense that they create a state of fear by shoving the "reality" down our throats so that they can get people to watch them and make money for their sponsors...

---

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman