FishProfiles.com Message Forums

if there is one absolute truth and it happens to be Christianity, I'm ok, but sounds like you'd be in trouble.

Not if you believe in Universal Salvation. http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

Sounds nice. Definitely sounds nice. But neither supported by the Bible on the whole nor by most Christians. Suggested reading

><>

lol, we use the word agnostic because its conveinient, not a belief system. We define ourselves outside of the precepts of religion entirely, and wonder why anyone would define themselves by religion at all As much as I dont believe theres a god in heaven, I dont believe pigs might fly or that the earth was created in 7 days. Im not belittling people for their beliefs, but I dont really see the need for belief personally in any form.A belief is fundamentally something you cant prove, otherwise it would be a simple fact, and bearing that in mind it seems hardly a worthy topic for arguement, let alone a basis for war, segregation or otherwise. Lets be honest here if theres a life and death arguement, and somebody said they were arguing because god told them to, you'd be more than a little unnerved. Not because you were afraid of the awesome power of their god, but because you just realised you were talking to a clinically insane person. I personally think there is a place for religion, and that place is purely in the the metaphysical realm, and not something you judge others by, or go to war for, or spread the ideal of to weak and disadvantaged people. Christian worship, muslims, seiks, buddhists, etc etc. All the same to me. Fine as long as they do their own thing, and live relatively peacefully, but as soon as they become unreasonable they get their butt kicked, just the same as anyone else would when their arguement is based on illogical principles. Theres tolerance and then theres intolerance thats meets other intolerances, and that, is the way of the world. When a single member of any religion meets me with a provable chain of evidence as to the existence of their chosen deity I will revise my opinion.Even then I will probably not choose to worship, as frankly there isnt a reason in the world to worship anything much. Until that day I shall remain as irreligious and defiant as ever, and probably long after. Gods are for those that need them. I dont need them.

I shall be taking the vulcan kohlinar later this month to purge myself of all human emotions

Im rather heartened by the fact that most british people when pushed into a religious statement like to say that they are "jedi".

Its all illogical to me

I believe the earth will die unless we look after it, I believe were massively overpopulated and experiencing climate change, and I believe we should take radical steps to improve things. I hate seeing needless death and destruction, and I know it causes me tangible pain to witness it, although I understand that our future will contain much of it. I know I live in troubled culture that is overly consumptive and has a lot to learn before the wrongs are righted and mistakes corrected, and I know the world has millions of people on it who are undereducated, indoctrinated, and mislead. I will live my days trying to correct that situation. I have seen nothing created by man that is as beautiful, stable, efficient and complex as that provided by the ecosystem of the earth, and I would preserve the natural evolution of all species on the planet as much as is possible, quite simply because as a life support system for all of us no matter what our religious ramblings may amount to, there is, very simply, nothing to touch it. Thats religion enough for anyone...

... and I can prove it

^ this post keeps getting longer

When a single member of any religion meets me with a provable chain of evidence as to the existence of their chosen deity I will revise my opinion.

Depends on your specific objections if anyone will influence your opinion or not. Feel like sharing?

><>

OK , try me with some evidence, bet you any money I can disprove it logically and reasonably within three steps or so. Or at least dispel the context that makes it stand as factual evidence, as oppose to that bit of evidence being allowed to stand in contextual inaccuracy. When you do that any religious arguement falls apart rapidly. Its when you believe one lie that all the others fall into place.

Im looking for real proof , not theological or metaphysical proof. Im betting you dont have any .

Try me by all means. Im open to possibility , but not improbability. If you can make a convert of me by all means do so. Its lonely being an agnostic, but unfortunately the real truth binds me and always will.

Test my mettle and ill test yours, but i warn folks in advance that conversation with me can leave you religiously impaired I broke a jehovahs witness in two days once ... 20 years a religious woman, and then cured in 48 hours. She emigrated to the west indies and got a real life and a new hubby.Much better than having her coming round and bothering my dad with her religious twaddle in his frail dotage and mourning her dead hubby and wayward drug-addict son. He only wanted a legover anyway, and shouldnt have to sell his soul to get it! I feel no guilt

Anyway these conversations always end in someone snottily saying "well I can believe what I want" and me saying "yes you can" and rolling my eyes a lot. I suspect its harder to convert a religious person to being agnostic than vice versa. Not that im really wanting to destroy peoples beliefs, its unltimately up to them, but if they think they can prove their religion as genuine truth as oppose to "truth" theyre usually kidding themselves.I cant deny that my personal opinion is that it might be easier to do what needs to be done for the survival of the species outside of people steeped in religious precepts, but its not neccesarily for me to change their minds.Its funny how the loss of a belief can make as many people as it destroys.

And yes I spotted the fish. Isnt that technically idolatry?

Mine are just fish

I don't bet money, but I'd be happy to take it up (providing evidence) with you via PM (I have a feeling this thread will be closed soon).

><>

PM me as much as you like, ive no problem with a good theoretical arguement. It falls under the healthy debate category, and no-ones being rude or anything, so go for it. Be a shame if this thread was closed.Its not a bad one.

me


Next topic... how do Jedi followers celebrate Easter? Aren't there 100,000 New Zealanders that identified themselves as following the religion Jedi in the last census? Surely we have a few here on the site.... /:'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

I have a feeling this thread will be closed soon

People keep saying that...hope not! I'm enjoying it too! Though I'm afraid to say much...

Yes it is lonely being agnostic isn't it.

I think there is a sad trend in the later part of the 20th century for "disproving" religion. Because there is no "evidence," god cannot be possible. I am not a religious person, I have my own beliefs as to the nature of life and these do not include a deity in any meaningful way.

But it deeply saddens me that people feel the need to "disprove" religion and ignore the many beautiful things that belief has produced throughout centuries. Yes, belief has caused some of the most horrible war, but has also caused some incredible peace. Belief has caused destruction, but also construction of the most amazing kind.

Does it matter who started Easter? All Spring rituals in any religion are centred around rebirth, new life and that is beautiful. Who owns it, who started it, it's irrelevant. What matters is that it is there, that this year, as for millenia before, the world is celebrating the victory of new life over death. It doesnt matter how they do it, what matters is that out of the drought, out of the rubble, out of the battlefield, out of the hatred and destruction, new life rises. Humanity, once again, is surviving, and that is the point of easter, and it's beautiful, no matter how you choose to mark it!

-------------------------------------------------
I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

Us Aussies tried to make Jedi an official religion last census... I think we fell juuuust short of the number needed, but geez it was funny

Not sure what a Jedi does for Easter... they probably don't have anything like it on their home planet....?


EDIT: and yeah, what Clanger said

Disproving religion is pointless in my veiw, and even scarier than discussing it. It would be far more interesting if someone could disprove my dining table, or perhaps the moving boxes I haven't unpacked yet.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

It is one of those odd things. I guess im not trying to disprove a religion, because one has not actually been proven to me yet. Working in the reverse would be bizarre. Besides I find disproving religion ludicrously easy , and frankly a low target, but what is more interesting to me is why people gravitate toward religion.

In a strange way I am as many people are in their lives, possibly looking for something, but finding nothing, except everything the planet has to offer. Thats kind of the point, thats where everything provable leads back to. Ive never seen a religion that doesnt forbid something that is a normal process of species behaviour, or a direct impetus for survival itself, and so I get frustrated with such religions as they are completely erroneous and contrary to things I can physically prove.

I think in essence religion is hope, but then again you dont really need religion to attain a sense of hope, and perhaps intrinsic to hope is the accurate perception of what is wrong with humanity both socially and in terms of our relationship to the planet. Only then can we move on and do what is not just morally correct for our belief system, but absolutely fundamentally correct, without the confining principles of religious dogma.

Lets be honest, as time goes on all religions are modified to suit trends in humanity, few religions as taught today bear a great deal of relation to the original teachings laid down thousands of years ago. I cant help thinking that these processes are needlessly slow and that religion is therefore mostly corrupted and modified to suit our own design anyway.To me its just like we are dragging our heels ethically for no good reason. I just feel that leaving this sort of dogma behind frees ones hands to do what is required rather than purely what is expected.

Im in no way adverse to some of the moral teachings in the bible, the koran, buddhism or otherwise, but the point is that I didnt need to be taught in a religious context to find commonality there, or to realise that some ideals are relatively healthy and easily assimilated into ones own moral code. What I have problems with is when the dogmatic roots of religious fundamentalism replace genuine deductive reasoning. It puts you into the position of standing on the shoulders of other peoples intellect without ever testing their theory. Its accepting secondary evidence at face value, and that can be an extraordinarily dangerous thing to do. Its not for me. I prefer the real to the abstract, but that in no way limits my potential for abstract thought, it simply makes my own abstration more accurate and pehaps better tested, based as it is on what I can logically prove rather than be fed a pre-concieved doctrine.

People can believe what they will. But there is a reasonable expectation that at some time your faith may be tested. I was raised a christian , but despite learning all I could about christianity I found that it failed to address what I believed important rationally, and was based on a staggering amount of supposition.

It was then that I turned from faith and started to look at the planet , since that was of fundamental importance in every aspect of life. Then I saw the state of it, and realised that rather than waiting for a judgement day or some spiritual revolution in the masses that I had to begin to work for its betterment now, on a very personal and accountable level , and expect no miracles other than perhaps the chance to witness the better in mankind, hopefully acting to save the planet and its species diversity. That is the definition of slim hope. I guess thats my religion, unfettered by angels and demons, and the crying in my heart for action to be taken is my version or prayer.But I know there are no miracles.We have to do it for ourselves, because we want to, because we have to. Not because we are told to.

Thats kind of my point. I think religion can blind you to a true calling for humanity. Lets face it, there is a real cause out there to be taken up.Its waiting for you, and there isnt a realistic arguement against trying for it.

If christianity etc makes you a better person , and helps you through life then use it by all means, but equally you should not be afraid to turn your back on it in times of need. In that way perhaps even then you will even be a better christian than those steeped in dogma, especially if you happen to believe the content of the dead sea scrolls etc. The ironies of religious belief are many and prove nothing if not that you must ultimately find your own way through life.

Good luck to you all in this, and despite being a confirmed agnostic, I hope you all had a fun easter period.I myself am quite a fan of chocolate eggs.


Im not sure a jedi celebrates easter, but there are certainly easter eggs on the star wars dvd's, so perhaps they spend easter hunting for obscure archive footage of george lucas fims.Perhaps they celebrate ben kenobis rise from the dead to help luke?

I dont suppose that I could disprove the existence of callatya's dining table except to say that I have no direct evidence of it except in her statement that she says she has one, but she might be lying. However I dont think thats the case and should probably does have one.

I hope random theoretic arguements like that one ended in athens around the time of socrates, but well , people do have a gift for illogicity.

" we are all but shadows on a cave wall"

For those who like the ironic side of philosophy , try picking up a graphic novel by sam keith called epicurus the sage, it is a quite amusing look at athenian life.

Easter is about the ressurection of Christ alone in my book.

-NewBreeder16

_______________________________________________
You can call me Newb too, since I'm not nere new any more.

aaaand the resurection of this thread...

*thread does a Lazarus*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Us jedi spend all day meditating during Easter. Damn straight.

Claim: Marking 'Jedi' as your religion on census forms will force your government to grant it official status.
Status: False.


-The premise of the call to arms is flawed; there is no official status to be gained. That part was purely the invention of the prankster who wrote the original letter.

-Even if there were official status to be gained, none of these governments would be swayed by a number of yahoos writing "Jedi" into a blank space on their census forms. They'd want to see tangible proof of an organized and thriving religion before they handed out the brass ring.

-At least in Australia, those who decide to take part in the leg pull are risking a $1,000 fine.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/jedi.htm

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

Aww bugger.

Was a great lot of fun though, made the news everywhere

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

And suppose somebody actually believes they are a jedi? Isn't a $1000 fine tantamount to religious discrimination?

I dont suppose the average christian can prove that their religion is any more valid than a jedi can.I think proof of religion is obviously less important than the devotion of the individual, otherwise everyone would get fined a $1000 for quoting they follow just about any religion. I guess people have just as much right to be jedi, as be a christian, a smurf or a pork chop.Ironically the force bears a striking resemblance to the christian god.Miracles or midichlorians, the choice is yours We are talking about belief, and you should be allowed to believe anything you like, no matter how ridiculous. Apparently. At least thats what religious people say to me!

One standard for all!

May the force be with you.lol.

I know this thread has gotten a little far away from the Easter thing, but I just wanted to relate a story my mum told me. When my older sister was a child, she had the usual questions about Easter and why we had it and where did the Easter Bunny and chocolate come from. Mum very patiently explained the Christian story of Jesus' death and resurrection (although my family was in no way Christian, my dad was a Hare Krishna and we all lean at least vaguely that way today), and also tried to work in the whole Easter Bunny/eggs/fertility/birth thing. She thought my sister had grasped the whole thing pretty well, until she overheard her telling somebody else that Easter was when Jesus died from eating too much chocolate . Let that be a lesson to you - chocolate is bad!

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. - Oscar Wilde

I think the problum with claiming you are a Jedi is that its not an Official religion. Don't they have a list of choices on those forms anyway?

Inky

JB that story is too funny!
Thanks for sharing... does the menu in your house lean towards the Hare Krisna teachings too (sorry to bring it back to food but all roads lead to Rome or my belly!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Yes indeedy. My sister and I have been vegetarian since birth, and my parents both were for a while, but mum now eats white and occasionally red meat, and I think dad did as well. He was still very into Eastern philosophy and theology though, in fact the last time I saw him, in hospital (he died last October), he was so intent on explaining the origins of Hinduism to my boyfriend that he kept running out of breath and I had to keep telling him "Dad, shut up and put the oxygen mask on!"

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. - Oscar Wilde

Educating right up to the end. Im sure you get karma points for that! He sounded like a great guy.

Sorry you lost your dad JB. Sounds like a tops guy.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~