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"Pretty much any animal has some capacity for learned behavior. That demonstration of a catfish learning a new action might make it seem intelligent, but the fact is that catfishes' brains are still much smaller and simpler than higher fishes such as the Perciforms."

Amen. Also, not to sound offensive, but when considering a species that one has a personal affection for, said organism's traits are often, err...glorified, so to speak.

Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 01-Aug-2005 11:49

Hey give my Pandas credit! They were only juveniles when it happened! And they *did* learn from it ...

Oh I know they'll never be able to compete with the likes of Oscars or big Jaguar Cichlids in the IQ stakes, because those guys can be taught to ring bells for food and other stunts, but for a small catfish I still think this is pretty good going!

And anyway, my Pandas are cute. Fwuffy wuv and all that.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Pretty much any animal has some capacity for learned behavior. That demonstration of a catfish learning a new action might make it seem intelligent, but the fact is that catfishes' brains are still much smaller and simpler than higher fishes such as the Perciforms.

Also, an intelligent fish wouldn't let another fish close enough to it that it could take its food from its mouth.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Cichlikds will be pretty near the top of the 'intelligence' list for fishes because they are highly evolved, not only from a morphological standpoint, but a behavioural one too.

Having said that, anyone who thinks Catfishes are 'stupid' should read the anecdote in my Panda Cory article. I quote:

On the subject of companions, my Pandas also share their home with Beckford's Pencil Fishes, which led to an interesting moment demonstrating their intelligence. During a live food banquet, one of my Pandas was happily munching upon a Bloodworm, the 'red spaghetti' darting back and forth in and out of its mouth as it chewed away, when a male Pencil Fish stole the Bloodworm right out of its mouth. The expression on the Panda's face was a picture to behold - it was tempting to mentally insert the words "Hey! Where did that go?" at this point. Soon afterwards, the 'mugging victim' took to sitting upon his Bloodworm to prevent future thefts! Not only this, but somehow, he communicated this to the other Pandas, and now, they all sit upon their Bloodworm as if taking no chances! Also, of late, they have discovered that the Lemon Tetras will help themselves to all the Bloodworm if given due latitude, and so the Pandas ensure their share of the bounty by sitting upon portions of Bloodworm, thus keeping them out of reach of the Lemons ...

Hardly the behaviour one would associate with a 'stupid' creature ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

No, not necessarily, they wouldn't have to be extinct. For a species to live and thrive doesn't require intelligence. It requires adaptability, among other things. There are tons of animals alive today that aren't particularly intelligent. Although not an animal, cyanobacteria has been around for a LONG time. I wouldn't call it intelligent :88). Rabbits and seagulls are EVERYWHERE, in large numbers, but I don't think they are that intelligent either.

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

Just to drop the bomb on the conversation.

If a fish wasnt intelligent, wouldnt they be extinct

My vote would have to be for most any cichlid, and most any pufferfish. My dwarf puffers were amazing little creatures. Watching them hunt down snails is fascinating!

Oh, since we are going with fish not kept in an everyday aquarium as well, I would have to go with sharks as well. Great Whites are amazing creatures!

Last edited by Stormy5 at 31-Mar-2005 12:47

Yeah, over here we get to choose up to 5 events.

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The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

You get to choose more than 3 events?

"Multituberculates evolved mammalian charateristics independently from all other mammals, and are not related to any living groups today. They were indeed rodentlike, but were not Rodents. Rodents didn't evolve until the Paleocene."

Hence why I said rodent like animals were some of the first to radiate. While it was once assumed that rodents had no previous descendants, because their fossil record suddenly appears out of nowhere, and due to the morphological similarities between the two orders, there is case studying on a prospective pre-rodent which is assumed to be linked to multituberculates.



Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 29-Jul-2005 12:50

Last thing...

Try all early multituberculates. They are believed to depart from the same lineage, and were heavily abundant in mesozoic times.

Multituberculates evolved mammalian charateristics independently from all other mammals, and are not related to any living groups today. They were indeed rodentlike, but were not Rodents. Rodents didn't evolve until the Paleocene.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Sexual Intercourse? Is that an event? I've never heard of it...

I also participated in Chem ID (7th), Forestry (5th), Physics Lab (2nd), and Designer Genes (3rd)... Our school's Sci Olympiad team sucks, so Nationals is totally out of the question for us. Here in DE, our entire state is a single region.:%)

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The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

First regionals, second by one point in state (I'm pretty much a one man team and we didn't study diatoms). I hear different hemispheres of the U.S. study different topics, but. Our team as a whole didn't make it to nationals, so yeah . What were your other events? I was forced into sexual intercourse by both chem lab and mission possible.



Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 28-Jul-2005 08:53

Holy cow, Cup, you guys definitely must've placed first in Fossils in your region. I placed first and I'm barely keeping up with your Cenozoic arguments. I guess I'm more Paleozoic and Mesozoic. I'm glad I didn't have to go up against you! Jeez, I didn't even study for that event. :%)

In terms of intelligent fish, I have heard much that would make me agree that Cichlids, Puffers, and Triggers should be near the top of the list. I have no experience with a good number of them, unfortunately. Generally speaking though, carnivores are more intelligent than herbivores. However, most every fish generally seems as dull as the next, even across the carnivore/herbivore bridge.:%)

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The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

"No source I can find lists "Protoprimates" as a group of animals. The creatures that evolved during the Mesozoic era were considered to be Primates (and by Primates I mean all Primatomorphs)."

By primates I mean all species within order primates. http://anthro.palomar.edu/earlyprimates/early_2.htm. It is not so much a scientific term as it is english phrasing to get a point across.

"I'm talking about Primates that evolved even earlier than those groups, such as Purgatorius of the Late Cretaceous."

You mean Purgatorius of the early Paleocene? It is generally believed that the single tooth of said species found in mesozoic rock was the result of an paleontological mishap. All other species are known from the Tertiary . This animal had neither the generalized tooth layout nor limb structure of true primates. Thus, it is considered that plesiadapiforms are not primates.


"Keep in mind that "gripping hands" does not necessarily mean "opposable thumbs". Many modern primates, as well as those in the Mesozoic Era, had gripping hands but no opposable thumb (a more advance feature)."

Actually semi-opposable thumbs are a trademark of order primates. No true member of the order does not have these features, or at least that I know of.


"Hyaenodons were not Carnivores. They were a member of the Creodonts, a group of rather unintelligent carnivorous mammals that were more related to the Odd-toed Ungulates than the Carnivores. The first Carnivores were very similar to the modern Viverrids, relatives of the Felids."

I think they were more closely related to goats than carnivora, but that's beside the point. My statement is representitives of early miacids are no longer seen in today's fauna.


"Fragments of what are believed to have been mesozoic rodents are known from all continents."

Try all early multituberculates. They are believed to depart from the same lineage, and were heavily abundant in mesozoic times.

"The point I'm trying to prove is that both Carnivores and Primates evolved before the Rodents and Ungulates, therefore disproving the fact that just because a Polypterid fish is primitive, it does not mean it is unintelligent. That's it... I'm saying no more."

Don't you see, though? It's true. By relating existing species of mammals to earlier precursors that contain features no longer present in today's fauna, you have derailed the argument by bringing it into an entirely different train of thought. Bichirs have changed little morphologically since long before true mammals even came into existence. By claiming that an extinct small, rodentlike creature not even considered a primate with no other creatures of similar physiology alive today gave rise to us, thereby making them intelligent, is unreasonable. Perhaps if such creatures were alive today, you would see that they truly aren't anywhere as smart as say, an elephant. Why not consult our friends, the monotremes, then? They are relatively unchanged (one of few) mammals of highly primitive descent. Now tell me that a platypus is smarter than said elephant. During the early Tertiary , most descendant lineages were already extant, including ungulates. Not to mention that order primates never took "grasp" (lololol pun/10) until the eocene, a time in which, as also stated, nearly all modern orders were present, not to mention that simians didn't come into this prehistoric masquerade until far later.




Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 28-Jul-2005 08:55

I'd say oscars. They can be taught to ring a bell for food or throw rocks at the side of the glass when they want attention. They can also be pet.

- DJ :88)

the cuddle fish i think is the most inteligent fish absolutely amazing at what it can do

haven rasied alot of speices of fish id say catfish n cichlids n labrynth fish r the most inteligent fishes that r focused on this site

elephant noses r very inteligent n have a much larger brain size then most fish

as well as piranhas
mine cut paths in the vegitation n move the tank decor around to suit there ambushing needs
they also have a distinct feeding order n social attitudes
they can work fine solitarily or as a pack hunter
to me they r the aquatic wolf n deserve/demand respect

The smartest fish I know is my old teacher's Red Devil named Bruno. My teacher would put a book up next to the tank and he would swim over to it and "read" it. He was so smart that he actually got on the news and in a magazine although I can't remember which one...

In my tank the smartest fish has to be my Green Severum. He definitely rules the tank and is very aware of what is happening around him. If I am in my room most of the time he will be on the end of the tank watching me. He also knows which fish to push around and which fish to leave alone based on which ones are meanest, and he also breaks up fights between my firemouth and zebra cichlid.

just about any puffer seems to have alot of intelligence, for a fish

elephants noses

I don't exactly have the broadest experience with different types of fish, but of all my fish, I'd have to say the bettas are the most intelligent. Guppies, danios, black neons... they're all pretty stupid compared to the bettas. Cories can be pretty sharp sometimes, but I still think it's the bettas.

I can pet my girls, have them jump for food or eat from my hands... they dance when they see me come in the room, but not for anyone else. I've seen them greet every newcomer in the tank with curiousity, but rarely violence. The one violent newcomer (another betta girl) chased my two most dominant girls around the tank... and they kept getting in between the aggressive girl and my more docile girls, so that THEY were the ones to take every nip and dive. Both wound up with the fishy version of a black eye (pop eye, from hitting the gravel in furious attempts to escape) and scrapes, but the girls that wouldn't fight back were protected and escaped with nipped fins at the most.

I think they know when I'm mad at them, because they sulk. Unlike the cories, who sometimes still think I'm going to murder them, the girls will follow my hand around the tank, playfully nip at my finger tips and twine between my fingers. Of course, they're not terribly bright when it comes to gravel vaccing... they like to dive bomb the tube when they seem bits and pieces float upwards.

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~

It depends how you measure intelligence. I would say quite a few species of cichlids and some labryinth fish are about on the same level and well above average. My paradise fish would swim about the tank eyeing everything and you could just see him thinking about what to do with this object. If he didn't like the fish/snail/plant he'd suddenly take a nip at it then swim on to the next thing. My johanni cichlids observed and reacted to their environment in much the same way. My tetras and cory don't seem to notice or care and only react to things that directly affect them like the net or food. They don't observe their environment and try to control/change it like the paradise fish or cichlids do. Every fish I have will wiggle and come up for food and every fish can recognize me as the one that feeds them instead of the rest of the family. I would consider that normal fish intelligence/behavior.

Corys!-My corys do a breakfast dance for me in te morning when I walk into the room. The other day I saw two of my giant schwartzis helping a tiny panda to find the food, if it went the wrong way they would push to the tablet. (This cory had shorter barbles but it came like that from my lfs, so that is probably why it couldn't find the food.)Also like Calis story about the red spaghetti and the pencil fish stealing it!

Platys in some ways, some not at all though- My platys swim to the front of the tank when ever I walk in front of the tank, they don't do this to anyone else. Also when it is feeding time, I can stick my hand in the tank right next to them and they won't run away. I can also pat them and they won't mind, and they eat out of my hands!

Gouramis-My gouramis know exactly where there is food, they remember where I normally drop the cory tablets and they are always waiting there in the morning. I once was putting a freeze-dried tubifex sqaure down to the bottom of the tank for the corys and thge gouramis came and just grabbed it out of my hand!

I don't really know about cichlids as I haven't kept them, but I believe they are pretty smart, as I have a book that had a story about a cichlid and its babies.

porcupine puffers

Larger predators, of course. Most cichlids, especially the South Americans, show considerable intelligence, as do a number of the 'oddball' predators, like bichirs, gobies, etc.

I honestly have no idea which fish would be the most intelligent...but here are my thoughts based on what I have or have had:

Guppies, what other fish could would "think" to have a million fry at a time to be sure that it's bloodline carries on. Also I've had fry survive when no plants were available, you know that must take some brains.

Goldies, because they can sense when you are going to be coming home or coming into a room, and move to see you...Of course my goldies also prayed to a fake log

Cichlids, In my tank, they all know that Bubba has to be the first to eat, or greet me with a nibble to my fingers, otherwise I will be disappointedOk let's face it he'll start a fightbut, he's not a bully

C. Hasbrosus (Dainties) What other fish can swim to the airstone and dive bomb it in such a speed it amazes all, and just before you're sure they'll hit the stone itself, they about face and fly to the surface

Then of course the bettasLeslie managed to train her betta, Gofish to flair anytime he saw her...of course Gofish is a little crazy:%)but we love him anyways...

Let's just put it this way, fish have a lot more intelligence than a lot of people I have met

Heidi

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

I'd have to say a F8 puffer is the most intelligent fish.

It might be a cichlid or predatory catfish, solitary predators seem to be the most intelligent fish out there.
I agree with Molly, the wolf cichld is certainly very intelligent. Oscars and red devils are pretty smart too, though I'm sure there are mur smurter cichlids to be found.

Last edited by sirbooks at 29-Mar-2005 10:43

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Anyone else ???

Me? Heck no. A 36" cichlid that can't really be housed with anything else? I don't exactly have room for a 400 gallon tank. But they are indeed very cool.

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

Dude,

Just checked this out on internet, that is one cool looking Cichlid, you got one ??

I suspect P. dovii, the Wolf Cichlid, is way up on that list.

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

A DOLPHIN!

Cichlid does have higher intelligence above most other fishes n can be train to 'play' with owner. especially Larger species of Cichlid ,the kind with the big hump on their head.

One other intelligence fishes wanna high light is arrowana,some of my friends claim that their arrowana can be intelligence enough to be able to watch their favourite TV show

in the aquarium world, I'd have to say New World Cichlids. My Rams always look at my other fish like they're stupid. They love to investigate, they know who to avoid in the tank, they recognize myself and my mother. And by "recognize" I mean the paler of the two will swim up to my mother and dance for her ('tis her "ghost" fish) and the darker of the two will follow me around when I'm looking for other hiding fish.

Outside the aquarium world (in terms of fish) I'ld say grouper. They never run when you don't have a speargun in hand, but the minute you do you'll never, ever see one. -.-

Sounds to me like conditioning rather than intelligence, Tort.

Bichirs are, I believe, fairly primitive fish in respect to taxonomy. Thusly, I don't really see them as being capable of matching brain power with larger new world cichlids. However, I've only ever had experience with Senegals (as opposed to your hundreds of species ), and even then they would just sit around all day.

my vote has to go to the midas/red devil. my old midas used to examine all types of things in her tank. she'd examine holes/caves to see if she could fit inside...and by examine I mean she'd turn all different directions so she could see at every angle. if she could fit inside, she'd go in but if not she'd swim away. she definitely recognized me as she would always greet me at the glass and follow me around if I walked back and forth in front of the tank. if anyone else approached she was very hesitant. she was also very intrigued by the light on the heater. anytime the heater kicked on I could find her checking out the orange light that comes on.

oscars are also very intelligent fish as are many other new worlds. the only thing that really set that midas I had apart from all the others I kept was the way she investigated things. it was great to watch. man I really miss that fish...I traded her in when I bought my festae

Polypterids and like species are also, IME, not so smart; rather, they have very fine tuned instincts.

Oh, I don't know about that....

I have a tank in my kitchen that is in line of sight of my fridge. The bichirs in the tank all kick up a fuss then line up along the front glass when a certain combination of two things happens...I (no-one else, only me) open the freezer door (not the lower fridge part, only the upper freezer). Their food is kept in that freezer, and it would appear that they recognise the location of the food, and the person who retrieves it.

Interaction doesn't really reflect intelligence, IMO. Catfish have proportionately small brains. They don't have the "analytical" powers of large guapotes. As you said, I generally experience very little interaction with my my cats, but they know when they're being fed. When I approach the tanks, my glasscats go nuts. My loris seem a bit more skittish, though.

Well, I have blue dwarf gouramis and while they are smart, I think my mollies were much smarter. I also think Petey, my rubbernose pleco is pretty intelligent. My harleys recognize me and come at feeding time but I definitely wouldn't put them on the list. But the coup de gras is Flipper, my freshwater dolphin. (mormyrus tapirus (sp)) mormyrids (dolphins, elephant noses etc) have a very high intelligence, and use more of their brain than humans do. He is very bright, recognises everyone in the room, plays with us and searches out every nook and cranny in the tank. methodically

If you mean true dolphins and not the ones kept in aquariums or fished as game fish(Coryphaena hippurus?) then they are mammals not fish. It's been argued that dolphin (and some species of whales) intelligence is greater than apes and second only to humans.