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Last edited by BettaDragon at 02-Feb-2005 14:51

Lol, okay Gomer, I thought I'd just let the people go at it, but if this is actually gonna be an ongoing discussion, then I guess I'll jump back in...

First off, it's kinda humorous that in Janna's argument to prove that glass is not a liquid, the VERY FIRST SENTENCE contains the phrase "molten glass"...as for what the substance is, it doesn't matter and I'll explain why...

Let's say you've got a vat of molten steel (since Janna suggested this substance). Let's say that a bubble forms in this vat of molten steel. This would definitely qualify as a "soft" bubble in every definition, whether the substance matters or not. Now then, that bubble stays in the molten steel and the steel cools and hardens. Now we have a bubble in a VERY hard substance. But, did the BUBBLE change? No, just the substance AROUND the bubble changed. No change took place to the bubble at all. Therefore, we still have the same "soft" bubble we had before...

Any desires to change your votes can be PM'ed to Janna personally...

PM/email/msg me if you have any questions/comments regarding me or my knowledge or if you want me to read a thread.

Seen it flow, huh? You must've had a LOT of time on your hands, and you also must be older than you say. They've found 2000 year old vases from Rome and such that show NO evidence of the glass "flowing".

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

I don't see Billy here defending his claims.

-- Gomer

I've seen it flow Janna..Or else I would not have posted that..

Come on hun, you know me better...

Molly, I'm pretty sure glass is 5 on the Moh's scale.

all i know is that glass is not a solid.

take a piece of it and hang it and see what happens.

gravity will draw it out over time.

Actually, Shannen, you're wrong. The claims that glass flows slowly over time have never been substantiated.

Here're some quotes from a site about that topic:

"In Mediaeval times panes of glass were often made by the Crown glass process. A lump of molten glass was rolled, blown, expanded, flattened and finally spun into a disc before being cut into panes. The sheets were thicker towards the edge of the disc and were usually installed with the heavier side at the bottom. Other techniques of forming glass panes have been used but it is only the relatively recent float glass processes which have produced good quality flat sheets of glass."

"There is no clear answer to the question "Is glass solid or liquid?". In terms of molecular dynamics and thermodynamics it is possible to justify various different views that it is a highly viscous liquid, an amorphous solid, or simply that glass is another state of matter which is neither liquid nor solid. The difference is semantic. In terms of its material properties we can do little better. There is no clear definition of the distinction between solids and highly viscous liquids. All such phases or states of matter are idealisations of real material properties. Nevertheless, from a more common sense point of view, glass should be considered a solid since it is rigid according to every day experience. The use of the term "supercooled liquid" to describe glass still persists, but is considered by many to be an unfortunate misnomer that should be avoided. In any case, claims that glass panes in old windows have deformed due to glass flow have never been substantiated. Examples of Roman glassware and calculations based on measurements of glass visco-properties indicate that these claims cannot be true. The observed features are more easily explained as a result of the imperfect methods used to make glass window panes before the float glass process was invented."

The site is [link=here]http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/Glass/glass.html" style="COLOR: #000000[/link]

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

Sure. The bubble isn't the inside alone, it's the whole concept. And the concept can be made of anything, so it can be hard.

Anyone know what glass is on the Mohs scale? Above 4, certainly ....

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

Glass was just one example! You could have a bubble made with, I dunno, steel or something. Plastic doesn't change shape if you hang it.

Besides, it takes years and years for glass to change shape at all. I certainly don't consider it a liquid, myself.

Gomer's first post that he deleted didn't delete the vote, so the score is really even.

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

all i know is that glass is not a solid.

take a piece of it and hang it and see what happens.

gravity will draw it out over time.

Hard

Glass is a very, very hard substance. Just it is fragile. It will shatter easy, but get a 6 inch thick piece of glass. Try punching that.

Glass is very hard, but very in-maluable. Unlike alot of metals. Maluable (sp?) is the ability to have it's shape changed. That is, lead is a very maluable metal, but steel isn't.

*shrugs*

EDIT: Billy i thought about what you said... But it is neither. A bubble is both the surrounding substance, and the air inside. More so the surrounding substance though.

Look when you have a bubble wand/pipe, you blow a bubble. The bubble is the detergant water bubble. It is being held together by it's surface tension, surrounding the air. The bubble is the whole thing.

What if you had a glass bubble in space, and the inside was a vacuum also. Would that still be a bubble?

*shrugs*

-- Gomer

Last edited by Gomer at 02-Feb-2005 18:35

Errr.

*doesn't know what to say to this*

You guys have too much time on your hands.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Okay, Billy and I had an arguement over the phone. He says that bubbles cannot be hard because there are more definitions in the dictionary that don't say that they are hard than ones that do. I say that bubbles can be hard, like bubbles of glass are hard, for example. Here's the definitions that I found:

Noun
1. A thin, usually spherical or hemispherical film of liquid filled with air or gas: a soap bubble. 2. A globular body of air or gas formed within a liquid: air bubbles rising to the surface. 3. A pocket formed in a solid by air or gas that is trapped, as during cooling or hardening. 4. a. The act or process of forming bubbles. b. A sound made by or as if by the forming and bursting of bubbles. 5. Something insubstantial, groundless, or ephemeral, especially: a. A fantastic or impracticable idea or belief; an illusion: didn't want to burst the new volunteers' bubble. b. A speculative scheme that comes to nothing: lost money in the real estate bubble. 6. Something light or effervescent: "Macon--though terribly distressed--had to fight down a bubble of laughter" (Anne Tyler). 7. A usually transparent glass or plastic dome. 8. A protective, often isolating envelope or cover: "The Secret Service will talk of tightening protection, but no President wants to live in a bubble" (Anthony Lewis).

So vote and prove Billy wrong!

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

Bubble = gas pocket

or a shape that appears as such a gas pocket..

either way it's more about the "hollow" part.

><>

i g2g w/ billy's explanation

sry janna

Daka

A bubble is an air pocket contained within a substance (whether it be soap, glass, amber, or lead). The substance is hard. The bubble is not...because the bubble is still just air...

EDITee definition 3 in Janna's description...

Last edited by iltat at 01-Feb-2005 02:33

PM/email/msg me if you have any questions/comments regarding me or my knowledge or if you want me to read a thread.

if bubbles could not be hard, then bubble wrap would not be so much fun

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"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

Heres the thing: Define hard.

Hard as in can withsand a slight touch from a needle? Hard as in being able to be droped from 3 feet? 10 feet? 100 feet? 1,000 feet? Hard as in able to withstand an elephant jumping on it?

Yes, a glass bubble is harder than a soap bubble, however, I could easily break a glass bubble.

Fishing floats = hard bubbles!

Stormy5 attached this image:

i can't really vote yet, cus what you named above i do beleive are actually amorphase solids (SP) (solids that move over time: EX: glass)

Daka