FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Hi folks,

I know a lot of you have a lot of experience with herps. I've wanted to get a snake for a long, long time. Right now there is a sale at a chain store here through which I could get a ball python at a more affordable than usual price. But my mom is rather iffy about it, and I would have to take my three brichardi cichlids to an LFS to free up an appropriately-sized tank.

What I would like to know is:

- How often would a snake the size of an adult ball python need to be fed?

- Is the following list of supplies complete?
* Bedding
* Heat lamp
* Water dish
* Hollow log or other item to hide under
* Thermometer
* Tank cover

- What type of bedding would be best for a ball python? At the store they are on some type of shredded wood. Would bark, topsoil, or some other substrate be better?

- Are there a lot of diseases these snakes can get that can be identified by a vet at an early stage? Or would taking a new snake to a vet be mostly pointless?

><>

I know nothing of snakes, although I really like them and I think ball pythons are really cool

Here is a link to help you get started:
http://www.kingsnake.com/ballpythonguide/

If you want to be safe add a thermostat to the list of supplies too.

The feeding question is perhaps more relevant than you might imagine, since ball pythons (python regius) are a common problem feeder, often fasting for periods of time that give their owners total panic attacks, and they often as a consequence waste a lot of food.

This is not a snake that will necessarily take to a feeding routine, sometimes they may want a single mouse, or maybe three.The average calorific intake equates to about a large adult mouse a week, but those interested in breeding or who have especially active specimens in larger vivaria may need to double that. Ball pythons are notorious for ceasing to feed for several months at a time especially if over or underhandled, they can be nervous snakes. Some specimens prefer gerbils ad gerboas and the occassional quarter grown brown rat instead of white mice, they are often stimulated by rodents with more normal brown pigmentation, not visually because they are effectively colourblind, but the skin smells different to a snake. They are often stimulated by the smell of brain tissue too, and a frozen thawed rodent with a small hole punched into the head to reveal the brain might stimulate an otherwise unwilling feeder to eat.

As with all enclosures its better to have good ventilation and cough up for the electric costs rather than have too little ventilation and try to economise on the heat. A good way of heating reptiles is to have something like a nicely screened off ceramic heater providing background heat that is controlled by a thermostat, and a seperate bulb that is small, doesnt overtly heat the cage, and just keeps a small rock or an area that it is focused on nice and warm. If the light is hacking the python off you can always buy red or blue coloured bulbs and heatlamps.

With reptiles there is a difference to the temperatures we provide with fish. Reptiles dont want one flat temperature, you give them space, a heat source and a retreat away from that. What they need is a hotspot at one end and a cooler area away from the heat, say a range of 90-75f across the tank, then the reptile can thermoregulate exactly as it wishes for peak health. You cant tell what heat it wants, so always give it the choice to choose by moving to where it feels most comfortable.


These are snakes that appreciate a bit of humidity, especially around sloughing time, and for those periods you will want a water dish large enough ie : a large cat litter tray that you can fill with warm water to allow them to soften the scales and enjoy a trouble free shedding experience.

Avoid the snakes in tubs keeping principles, these are creaturees that like a little space and room to move so a viv about 5x2x2 feet or bigger decorated with thick branches, chunky stones etc will help it feel secure and allow it to abrade its skin a little for sloughing, and give it anchors to grip against. It will pay dividends in the snakes personal health and fitness.

Choose substrates that retain a little moisture, a relatively fine grain bark chip (not woodchip)is probably the best choice as it helps regulate a little humidity, and soaks the Moisture out of snake crap thus making it a bit less offensive the nose, and the reptile will be less likely to suffer ammonia burns etc to the skin.You should spot clean daily, and change the substrate at least monthly.If theres a major water spill or similar you may need to change it out. You want a substrate that isnt wet or even damp, but has a texture like a fresh spongecake, you can feel its moist, but not actually wet.

They should ideally be given a photoperiod too, it often helps to mentally stabilise them, they are mostly nocturnal, and dontappreciate especially bright light, but a day/night change on a regular 12 hour pattern will be appreciated by these snakes.

There are a lot of pretty good herpetological vets, its a bit like fish, you need to find decent specialists, and most of the diseases a ball python can suffer from are eminently treatable, metabolic bone disease,stomatitus (mouthrot), various internal worm and protozoa infections, fungal infections of the skin etc are pretty common and all can be eliminated. There are all sorts of problems with the "rear end" of snakes, constipation, prolaspes etc do happen, but a reasonable diet and good thermic control stops most of this, but should that sort of thing kappen a vet should be able to help you out. The biggest defecit with veterinary knowledge and reptiles are usually to do with drug compatability, there are antibiotics, wormers, and anaesthetics that just shouldnt be used with reptiles, and obviously you'd want to find a vet used to handling the proper protocols for herpetiles. By no means though, should you ever consider any herpetile pet unsavable casually. The knowledge is out there. If necessary ask me, im just as good on reptilian disease as piscean ones.

Boid immune system retroviruses are far more serious though, the snake will be lucky to survive those, it often wipes out whole collections.

Snakes broadly speaking though, have an excellent immune system , and most of the conditions they suffer from are the direct fault of the keeper not maintaining cleanliness and the correct levels of heat and humidity, and of course ventilation. Most are reversable if caught early enough, but seeing as most snakes have only one truly functional lung, respiritory ailments must be avoided at all costs.

Good food, a decent and constantly maintained thermal gradient, sufficient humidity, peace and quiet , and a good level of respect for its personal privacy, and theres no reason a ball python shouldnt make an excellent pet.

I know people just keep them in bare plastic tubs etc, but to me thats not reptile keeping in the same way I wouldnt keep a betta in a 1 gal. Indulge them , and respect them, give them a little freedom.

Anything else you need to know just ask. Hope this helps.

..and if you havent been here before http://www.anapsid.org/ take a look, and read around reptile keeping generally, it will give you a bigger insight into reptile keeping than the poor end of snakekeepers who just keep dozens of snakes in tiny tubs.

In many respects snakes are a lot like lizards, they need space and texture to their surroundings, the major advantage of snakes of course is their comparative handleability and ease of nutritional provision. Thankfully they dont suffer anything like the deitary deficiencies of the insectivorous lizards for example. Don't forget , ball pythons are small for a member of the python family, but a 4 and a half footer will be three times heavier than a 6 foot ratsnake. Its not really a small snake, and they should be catered for properly.

Personally I think there is nothing nicer than a bright shiny ball python all comfortably wrapped up dozing on its favourite branch in a nice chunky, clean naturalistic vivarium, looking for all the world like it has its own slice of tropical forest. I even like that moment when you open the cage, and it smells like a rainforest.

Good luck with your new choice of pet.

Thanks, LHG. If I don't end up getting a ball python just now, I am saving that post for future reference.

><>

That a lot of info written..thats great because iam thinking of getting a snake aswell
Iam trying to find the Blizzard corn snake..they are cool looking and a good beginner snake.

---

I know human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully.

I don't know how I missed this post...

If this is going to be your first pet reptile, then I would recommend staying away from Ball Pythons, for the feeding/housing reasons Git mentioned in great detail above (I won't elaborate on that). This species, though often available at cheap prices, is really best suited for intermediate herp keepers.

Since you're in Bay Area, I highly suggest you drive up to Berkeley and stop by the East Bay Vivarium. They are one of the largest and most respected reptile retailers in the entire country, and though some of the employees can be rude sometimes, they really know their stuff. Because of this I would recommend just browsing the first time you go there, and in my opinion it would be best to consider the following snakes: Cornsnakes and other ratsnakes, kingsnakes, some pythons (Children's or Spotted), and Erycine boas (Rosy Boas, Sand Boas, etc). It's hard to go wrong with most of these types of snakes. Try not to ask the employees too many questions if it is really busy in there (it usually is), or they might get angry. It's kind of weird at first.

Once you find something you think you like, buy a book and research online to learn as much as possible about the species you are considering. Once you think you've decided, you can set up the cage/enclosure. You might want to look on CraigsList or something to see if there are any used cages for cheap, or what I do is buy some transparent plastic latching tubs at The Container Store (they are a lot cheaper than glass cages and more practical when numerous snakes are involved). I find a lot of beginning herpers like to buy new glass tanks because it generally looks a bit better; I guess I just like to save money more. The snake won't know the difference.

Once you have everything set up for a certain species, then it's time to go back to the Viv and pick out what snake you want. This goes for antywhere you buy a snake, but ask to handle them so you can see which one has the best personality (calm but not lethargic, alert but not too squirmy/defensive, etc) and look for mites, scale rot, mouth rot, or other signs of illness. Also, it's best to make sure the snake is already taking frozen, unscented rodents. The snakes I listed above will almost always take pre-killed prey without hesitation (that can be a problem with Ball Pythons, though), but sometimes people forget to ask and then they end up with a snake that will only take live prey (which is very dangerous to the snake and not fun for the mice either).

Also, you might just want to try browsing CraigsList for actual snakes as well (there are often some available for adoption with complete setups for like $100). Almost all of my snakes are "pre-owned".

Hope that helps a bit.

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Also, just thought I should mention this since Git was talking about bare-bones snake racks in his post... While I do keep my snakes in tubs (40 gallons on bottom, 28 gallons on top, much easier than glass cages), they are set up inside more like the natural vivs he was talking about (lots of hiding places, branches, etc).

A couple years ago I tried totally naturalistic setups with live plants, stirring the substrate every week and everything, but I didn't get enough gain out of it to want to keep it going. The snakes would crush the plants by crawling on them or dig them up (so I'd have to buy new ones every couple weeks) and getting them out of the tank for feeding was a major pain because they'd just wedge themselves in between the rocks.

It's not really something I'd recommend for most colubrids, Erycine boas, and other terrestrial/fossorial snakes, but for arboreal species like flying snakes or chondros it's great. I would also recommend against it for first-time snake keepers, as the substrate can be a breeding ground for dangerous parasites and bacteria if care of the substrate is not meticulously carried out. I've seen dozens of snakes get respiratory tract infections from beginning herpers attempting to keep completely naturalistic vivaria.

I've since switched over to large tubs and ditched the real plants, and it's made things a lot easier. The snakes seem better overall as well (growing faster, stronger appetites, more relaxed). Tubs are perfectly fine to use as long as you don't do something like this for anything other than growing out hatchlings. If you do get tubs, get the largest practical size you can and furnish them lavishly to make the snake feel secure. One of the main things I like about the tubs is that since they are so lightweight, I can clean them out whenever I want in just a few minutes and quickly set them back up, which is less stressful to the snake.

Here's a picture of my California King when he lived in his 65 gallon naturalistic vivarium:

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Natalie has given some good advice here too, and her tubs are not inhumane since they are both of a reasonable size for the snakes, and decorated to give them some environmental enrichment, but I dont like tubs personally, because they arent good for display purposes and the "close walls" that are only semi-translucent can actually damage reptile eyesight over the long term, especially for lizards and tortoises, but also with snakes. Most people forget that little fact.

I tend to look at plastic tubs as temporary accomodation or a place to raise youngsters, not as a permanent residence, because I believe a more solid , thermally efficient vivarium that can be seen out of, has more scope for better equipment, mountings, better visibility,and of course a greater size is the eventual destination even for snakes. Some of its down to personal choice, some of it is down the the requirements of the individual species, and some of it is about advancing the animals health and attaining good ages once it has matured. Some of it is about appreciating that even reptiles that don't always have a particularly expressive body language are still pretty intelligent,far moreso than most fish, and should have a little indulgence or two, and this is something more reeadily appreciated by lizard and chelonian keepers than snakekeepers on average. There are snakes for whom a plastic tub is fine, and for others a plastic tub will never do, in any way , not ever, and I think ball pythons just qualify to be getting out of plastic tubs when mature.

A lot of reptiles seem short sighted but have in fact a very long focal range, primarily because they need to spot predatory birds a long way away.Unless the species are tiny long term keeping of reptiles in quarters they cant see out of may affect their vision.

Natalie was unlucky to have her more naturalistic vivs not work for her, they do take a certain amount of planning and tweaking, but she has settled on a workable compromise, I will agree that artificial plants are an easier choice, ive used them often.

A totally naturalistic vivaria takes a great deal of skill and planning, and there tends to be several schools of herpetile keepers, the lizards keepers tend to be the most advanced and practised with vivaria design, the snake keepers often keep it simpler, but there are principles from each school that you can apply to the other.
You can plan a naturalistic vivarium without live plants, but realistic in appreance and environmental enrichment, and in my experience while snakes will often choose to hide, that should remain an available choice for them.

In the end if the viv is well designed they nearly all come out to be seen and a lot of the finer points of reptile keeping are about managing stress levels and making the reptile psychologically comfortable enough to do that. For example, the viv I set up for a zoo display years ago designed for three adult ball pythons was 8x12x3 feet , and they all regularly stayed on permanent display in the choice branches. They also bred regualarly, and because an egg laying site was included, the eggs could always be retrieved for hatching , or even left in situ.

There is a naturalistic design or compromise for every species, you can do biotopes that are simpler for desert species all the way to complex tropical paludaria for semi- aquatic species. I would encourage everyone to at least have a stab at some level of environmental enrichment, even if its only a few rocks, hides, and suitable substrates.

Theres no reason whatsoever that naturalistic vivarium design should encourage disease if its properly maintained, and sourced from clean stocks, and sterilised properly, just as you would for a fishtank. In fact the whole idea of them is to improve the psychological health of the reptile, thusly avoiding stress, and the immunosurpression that comes with it.

Herpetology can go from basic to the most complex level of animal keeping for any captive species, but you do have to find the best compromise for your circumstances.

Her suggestions for beginner snakes were also very good but if your going for kingsnakes go for the common types, hondurans , pueblans etc, and avoid the mountain kingsnakes that are a completely different level of difficulty.

At the rescue end of things I found most reptile lung infections are caused from excessive humidity or too little, and unfortunately because beginners dont tend to appreciate the principles of the avoidance of stagnant air by using convection aeration principles or in other words having one vent low, one high, and relying on the heating to create a consistant current, and that im afraid was more common among plastic tub keepers.

Trouble is, a lot of tub keepers only put holes in the lid, and that often isnt sufficient for the required level of air circulation. The naturalistic vivaria hobbyists were usually not in a situation where that was a problem thanks to the more roomy cages and more complex thermodynamics of their housing, More often than not their major sin was overspraying their setups and causing mold to take hold or not cleaning properly.

Purpose designed vivs are usually much better than fishtanks and tubs, and once I moved to those I never went back. Sliding doors for easy maintenance, ventilation holes in proper places, attachments and screening for heating etc, they are well worth the investment and immediately eliminate a lot of keepers mistakes. One thing though whenever you have sliding doors, get a lock. Most of the abusive conditions I have seen generally happen in wood cages for species that like it humid, and they just cannot be cleaned properly. Go glass, acrylic, brick, or concrete, but dont do the untreated wood thing. If your gonna use laminates, theyd better be bloody tough laminates, and they will need to be sealed at the corners.

Like I said , read around that reptile site generally, and take in a little more on the related species and herpetology in general it gives you a better outlook, and each discipline can share principles to some degree. Plastic tubs are fine for some, but some people wouldnt dream of using them, and rather than assume there is only one way to keep a snake, see what you can do, and how far you are willing to go.

My personal opinion is that tub culture is too prevalent, and not all of a number of species needs are catered for using that method, and naturalistic vivaria approaches are the better, more advanced way to go, but you do have to temper that to a reasonable compromise according to your knowledge , available time and effort, and finances, to ensure that you are successful. Maybe start with a tub, and then advance, but dont consider tubs the final ideal destination for a given species. Herpetology and the animals themselves have a great deal more to offer than that.

Rather like fish in bowls etc, the herpetocultural hobby has a great deal of moving on to do. There is a practical compromise approach and natalie is clearly a fine exponent of that, and her principles are a good practical way to start, but there is a much bigger picture out there, and a huge level of personal advancement available beyond that.

i will add only one thing.
The majoriy of snakes bought in chain stores have been raised and kept in tubs, you can e 90% sure.

It's impractical for any breeders (not just those who supply chain stores) to temporarily house hatchlings/neonates in anything but snake racks if they don't want to go bankrupt or have preventable losses.

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Of course its completely usual for snakes to be raised in tubs, done it myself, but when it comes to appropriate environmental room you wouldnt take your cues from a breeder, much as you wouldnt for fish,or dogs or anything else.There is a difference between the housing given to the reptiles at their eventual destination compared to a breeding facility much as there is with chickens etc. Breeders usually treat their charges as a business, as a creature that is intended to generate the maximum profit possible, it would be a poor world indeed if everyone kept their reptiles like that. Breeders do the bare minimum to ensure the animals breed and stay alive, but good herpetoculturalists usually go far further.

At my peak, I kept 55 large reptiles, all of which had naturalistic vivaria far exceeding tub sizes. Breeders do what breeders do, hobbyists have an opportunity to far exceed that, especially in terms of life quality for the animal.

Tubs have their uses and i'm not arguing that, and some snakes can be perfectly well kept in them especially if they are small, but I would like to think for every reptile out there a grander destiny can await, and a bigger world waiting for them, richer in experience, thermic comfort, and stimulation. They are not stupid animals , they are usually fairly intelligent, and we should be respecting that and indulging that wherever possible. Personally I prefer a regime where handling is not the reptiles primary source of exercise. Lets be honest here, if the tub isnt large enough, and a particular reptile is as many are, a little intolerant of handling, in a tub its life could be a very limited existence. In a bigger viv, with more environmental enrichment, those tricky to handle specimens , or those specimens who are actively and persistantly afraid of humans still get to have quality of life. Reptile keepers have to be aware that even specimens of commonly owned snake species do not always appreciate handling, and in some circumstances to force handling upon them regularly would be wrong. Some in fact are likely to up and die on you if forcibly handled when not mentally able to cope. Snakes are not truly pets in the traditional sense.

Not all reptiles like people, therefore not all reptiles should live in tubs. Sometimes bigger accomodations need to be used, that way they still get to have a quality of life.

oh i do see your point..for instance, you couldnt house a monitor in a tub, but how large a vivarium would you donate to a single Paroedura androylensis which are fully grown at 1.5cm, and enable it to feel secure and find it's food?!

While we're discussing potential good beginner snakes what about the ribbon snakes I've seen lately? I believe thamnophis sp. I've always wanted to keep a snake but most of the ones at stores always listed 6+ feet which seemed beyond what I'd want to care for. The ribbon snakes say 3 feet or less so I did consider them but most all I can find about keeping them is care sheets by places like petco. I did ask around a little at a local reptile shop but they went out of business recently(and I made off with all their tanks ). So I'm sitting here with a 40g breeder that doesn't hold water, unless I want to trust my ability to reseal the whole thing, debating what to do with it.

Ribbon Snakes are hardy and therefore suitable for beginners in that aspect, but they are extremely flighty and tend to bite and musk if you try to pick them up. They are more of a "look but don't touch" type of snake (not that you should be touching any snake too much, though). It's possible for them to become accustomed to human contact, but it takes a lot of patience. Additionally, it's somewhat difficult to get them to take rodents instead of live fish. At work I finally managed to get some of the Garter Snakes we have to take F/T pink mice, but I had to scent them with fish.

If I had a 40 gallon breeder, I put a female Organ Pipes Rosy Boa in it.

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

i'd stand it on its head and put a pair of tokays in it.

also, a snake growing six feet could hapilly live in a 3ft enclosure, depending on width/height obviously.
Dont forget, snakes are agraphobic, it's not like having a 5ft fish and having to have a 35 foot aquarium..

Aggraphobia is a condition forced on them by previous keeping conditions,not natural behaviour, so in every sense it should be the keepers committed intention to reverse any such acquired attitudes as expediently as possible. We make them afraid, their environment does not. They use cover as they move, which means that their larger tanks should be decorated, not substituted with a small bare tub. Most snakes and lizards should have a secure retreat or burrow, even a box away from prying eyes, and a secure place to rest, but in no way should this be the remit of their enclosure. They should have a confined space within a larger one that they may enter or exit at any time... Never noticed snakes evolve in boxes in nature, nor seen one not do well when acclimated in a larger vivaria either, no matter how small the species.

Lets not take the P on the size issue, or allow bad herpetocultural practices to proliferate.This is petshop culture im hearing, and were supposed to do better than that here! With snakes you count available volume more than length ( ie: a nice humane cage for a 20 foot retic, would be at least 15 x 7 x4 and with lizards you go for about 5-6 times the body length with added height for arboreal species, usually at least the same upwards.Bigger than that is better of course. With any snake under 4 feet its not too much to ask to give them a cage at least as long as they are and give them a retreat box.

(slaps everyone, c'mon , where's ya thinkin!)

C'mon kids this is basic stuff.

Well, my mom flat out said no snakes until I move out of the house. She's not afraid of snakes, just doesn't want to have to feed one mice (she used to keep mice when she was a kid). So I guess I'll have to wait. But now I have a lot more information!

><>