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If your LFS didn't want to keep them for you, there was a reason why.

I could ask the man to hold them, but he has been very clear that I need to pick them up the day they come in.



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Sometimes stores get bad batches of fish. Every single fish of a certain species has been known to die within a day. You may have just had they bad luck of this happening to you. Don't get discouraged.

20 Gallon Long:
Aquaclear 300
2 Bolivian Rams, Mikrogeophagus altispinosus: Gumby and Pokey

If you can get stock that is of European origin, chances are they'll be a fair bit hardier. Eurpoean breeders tend to devote a reasonable amount of care and attention to them, and don't engage in weird tricks to speed up their growth. Most of the Rummies I have access to locally are either Continental European stock (which are surprisingly tough given the reputation they've acquired for delicacy here on this Board among some people) or, best of all, the odd batch of local bred ones, which are superb. If you get specimens with a good provenance, and acclimatise them with care, expect them to live up to 8 years in your aquarium.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I bought mine for $4 US. The ones I bought from a different store are still going strong. Maybe they get theirs from a different place than the ones that died. Not sure. I never talked to the guy and haven't gone back in there since.... That ruined my thought about the store. I had never bought anything in there before...not sure I will again.
Both stores I bought from were small LFS and not chain stores...so maybe chain stores are cheaper. I have not seen them at any chain stores in my area though.

I love my 4 rummies and hope that I can find them in a store somewhere so I can add to my school.

Last edited by GirlieGirl8519 at 10-Jan-2006 19:45

*Kristin*

I bought mine at US$2 each, here in Malta, but most of the time they are at US$3 each.

I have a school of 18 Rummynose Tetras & they are really beautiful.


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People will generally pay between $2 and $4 U.S. over here. Stores in my area sell them at a little under three most of the time.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Hi
Just been reading this thread and found it very interesting.
We purchased 4 Rummies and added to our tank with no problems on the weekend. We were thinking of getting 6 but decided on 4, looks like we made the right choice considering the pheromone issue. They have maintained full colour and seem to be settled in and schooling together. I find it hard to beleive the 40C "hot-housing" but suppose its a matter of business for the breeders, not very ethical.
Out of curiousity we paid about $3.00AU for each fish here in Canberra, what is the cost in the US?
Cheers
Darren

If you have the possibility, talk to your LFS & see from where he get's the fish. Try not to buy any fish coming from the Singapore area.

In Malta, we get fish from Germany & Singapore & i find that the German imports are more costy but much better in quality & survival rate.


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Cali, that may be why I have not been able to find them at stores (except the first one). Even at that LFS they said they don't get them regularly. That is why I had to order them this time.
That sounds like a good reason though. I had no clue about the breeding of them and what all happens. Atleast I have something to attribute the deaths to. I will ask the man tomorrow where he gets them from. Surely that is the case since 5 of the 6 died. It seems like more would make it if there was something else going on. They seemed healthy when I got them home...except for the stress. Also after I moved them to the 55g (after 2 died in my 5g), they colored up nicely and seemed to be doing fine. But it turns out they were not fine.


*Kristin*

Ah, this sounds all too lamentably familiar ...

Do you know anything about the provenance of the fish? As in where the stock originated?

The reason I ask is this. Sit down and prepare for a nice long story.

Rummy Nosed Tetras are difficult to breed in captivity. Persuading the parents to spawn can be achieved fairly readily by an experienced aquarist, but ensuring the survival of the eggs and growing the fry are notoriously difficult. For some reason, Rummies have probably the slowest growing fry of all the Characins - it's not unusual for them to need infusoria for up to twelve weeks after hatching. Only once they're past this stage do they start to pick up speed with respect to growth. Consequently, they're even more of a challenge than Neons and Cardinals to breed successfully in some respects. While getting Neons and Cardinals to spawn in the first place is a work of art, once you have eggs and fry, they're only moderately difficult to raise. With Rummies, your troubles are only just beginning as a breeder once they've spawned.

Singapore suppliers hit upon a trick to speed up growth. Raise the temperature of the aquarium to a whopping 40°C, and force oxygen into the water using pure oxygen tanks. This speeds up the growth rate considerably (and since Rummies are something of a 'hothouse' fish, they'll stand this treatment - it's cool temperatures they don't like as a rule), and means that a Singapore breeder can ship Rummies at a saleable size in about six weeks instead of six months!

However ... quite a few of the Rummies that are 'hothouse raised' as fry are shipped out ... and transferred with precious little acclimatisation to 25°C water, having spent their first weeks of life hothoused at 40°C. Oh, dear.

You can guess what effect that has on the poor fish.

I'm fortunate in that my LFS, when he gets Rummies, gets them from a wholesaler who knows about this hothousing trick, and spends a week winding them down to normal temps before shipping them to retailers if they're Singapore stock. But not everyone does this. So, what could well have happened with your Rummies was the tragic scenario of:

[1] Singapore breeder hothouses the fry at 40°C;
[2] Singapore breeder ships them out;
[3] Wholesaler receives them and transfers them to 25°C;
[4] Wholesaler passes them on to retailer;
[5] Retailer sells them to you;
[6] You end up with dead Rummies keeling over from massive temperature change shock.

Once again, it pays to know your fishes' provenance!

If, on the other hand, your stock comes from Florida, then this scenario shouldn't be a problem. However, something transport shocked your Rummies by the sound of it, and without following them along the supply chain, if your stock came from a Florida breeder, then we're in the realm of the unknown again.

Quite a few dealers in the UK avoid stocking Rummies if they know they're getting Singapore stock, because of the mortality resulting from lack of proper 'winding down' from the hothousing stage. It might be a good idea if US dealers and wholesalers put pressure on the Singaporeans to 'wind them down' at source before shipping them out ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Thanks Cali. I got there within about 30 mins of their arrival. They were still in the bag, as were other fish he ordered. All 6 of them were in one bag though. He had the bag with the fish already in a brown paper sack for me when I got there, so they were not set in water at all. I turned the tank lights off before floating the bag, but the room light was on.

The reason he wanted me to pick them up when they came in was probably so he wouldn't have to put them in one of his tanks and then bag them again. It wasn't because something was wrong with them. He doesn't regularly keep Rummies right now. It is a small place and he doesn't have that many types of fish. Space is limited and Rummies just aren't something he keeps. He is a very nice old man and I think he would have told me if they were not ok to get. Maybe he wanted the money he would make off of me, but I really think he didn't deliberately sell me fish that wouldn't make it.

5 of the 6 fish I ordered have died now. I have no idea why. The only thing I can see wrong with some of them is redness on their bodies...not sure what that is. It is not on their heads, but on their bodies. In the future I will surely buy fish that have been in the LFS a few days. When I bought them before at a different place I only lost one and that was when I brought them home. I attribute that to the stress of the ride home, as it is an hour from my house.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I am going to call the man tomorrow (Monday) and see if I can bring 2 of the dead fish in for a refund. I am not sure if he will give me one though. I flushed the others before I even thought about taking them back.

Last edited by GirlieGirl8519 at 24-Dec-2005 23:17

*Kristin*

If fishes are to be taken from the LFS on the day of arrival, try and get them BEFORE they're transferred from the bag to the dealer aquarium. One change of ambient water is going to be a LOT less stressful than two.

With Rummies, try and get there when they arrive, get them bagged in no more than 4 fish per bag, with a decent amount of water in each bag, then keep the bags darkened for the trip home. Perform all transfers in subdued lighting.

This should reduce losses considerably.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I ordered some Rummynose tetras from a LFS 2 weeks ago. They will be in tomorrow. The problem is that the tank they are going into, my 55g, has ich. I have been treating for a week and it is slowly going away. Right now the only infected fish (that I can see) is my German Ram.
I didn't have ich in the tank when I ordered the Rummies. I don't have a Q-tine tank and I should. I know I shouldn't add any more fish to the infected tank, but my only options for Q-tine are my 5g (minibow) with a male betta and my 10g with a male betta, 9 neons, and 2 ottos. Could I put the 5 Rummies in the 5g for a week or so? Or should I just go ahead and add them to the 55g? The 10g is at its limit now so I don't think it would be a good idea to put them in there. Any suggestions to this problem?

*Kristin*

I've lost yet another Rummy. That is 4 out of the 6 I got yesterday. The ones I got before did so well. I don't know what is going wrong. I guess in the future I will not have someone order them, but see if I can find them in a LFS.
My parameters are:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20 ppm
pH: 7.6 (same as always)

I have no reason to be losing these fish, except for them being new and getting them right after they arrived. I am just so frustrated.
Thanks Keith, I do have some frozen bloodworms and only feed them every so often. I guess I should give them a few times a week. I will give the Rummies some tomorrow and hopefully that will help the remaining 2 new ones live.
One of them was hiding in a cave earlier, when the lights were on. It was a little pale, so obviusly stressed. When I turned out the lights it was swimming with the others. Strange. I guess they are still getting used to their surroundings.

*Kristin*

Re Frozen Blood Worms.

I think you will find these a lot safer to use a there is little if any chance of bringing any nasties into your tank. I have been buying them in bulk (10 Packets) for several years it is a lot cheaper as I use 4 squares three times a week.

Have a look in [link=My Profile]http://
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Keith

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Yes I have experienced their loss of color when startled or stressed. When I got these they were pretty pale. So I guess, very stressed.
I have lost another 2 now. I came home to find them today. I acclimated them for over an hour yesterday. I poured some of the tank water in after 30 mins. Then about 15-20 mins later I poured more in. Then I waited about 15 mins later I let them out of the bag.
I guess I will stick with the number I have and hope they make it. I hate buying fish and then having half of them die on you. I guess that comes with the hobby though.
I did find a place that has pandas though, so I am otherwise happy today.

edit: Cali, I haven't been able to find any LFS that sells live food around here. I may not be looking hard enough. I have some frozen bloodworms. Would that be the next best thing? I guess it is better than the freeze dried ones. :%) Thanks for the advice.
Bruce: I guess my water quality stays pretty good most of the time, because the rummies I already have stay brightly colored. I don't see them fade much at all. They school with my head and tailights. My favorite tetra by far.

Last edited by GirlieGirl8519 at 23-Dec-2005 13:05

Last edited by GirlieGirl8519 at 23-Dec-2005 13:08

*Kristin*

Ah yes. Rummies are definitely e to transport shock. With Rummies, it's advisable to have them bagged in lots of 4 maximum in a fair amount of water to minimise the effect cited by Bruce Moomaw above. When you get them home, acclimatise with care, and they should come around and begin zooming about the aquarium in no time.

Also, if you can get some live Daphnia for them to eat after they've settled in, this will go a LONG way toward making their arrival that bit happier. Few things work with fish like a live banquet to set them up for the acclimatisation process ahead!

Oh, almost forogt - when I had them, they would turn somewhat pale during the disturbance of a water change and gravel vac, but once they found they had nice clean water again, they'd colour up in about an hour or so and become positively luminous! Best thing to do to keep them happy is arrange for some live food to go in an hour after the water change - watch thel turn into little jewels with faces that look as if they're cut from solid ruby!


Last edited by Calilasseia at 23-Dec-2005 07:23

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

They do indeed stress horribly easily during transit. I once drove three of them, in a large jar with about half a dozen other fish, from one aquarium to another only 10 minutes away -- and all three of them had gone into terminal shock by the time I arrived, while everyone else in the jar came through perfectly. What happens is that, like some other tetras, when frightened they release a pheromone into the water to warn the other members of the school that they're under attack -- and in small enclosed containers, the poor little guys can release such a high concentration of the stuff that they literally frighten each other to death. The best way to prevent this is presumably to make the container as big as can be managed, and/or to keep it in the dark if it's a transparent plastic bag.

However, in my experience, once they've safely arrived they are moderately durable fish, certainly no harder to keep than Cardinals. As an added bonus, you can tell instantly when they're not feeling well, because the bright red coloring of their faces fades dramatically -- allowing them to serve as a kind of "mine canary" for the water quality of your aquarium as a whole.

I got my Rummies today. They are in the 5g and are swimming around very nicely. My betta hasn't bothered them at all. He gets a little curious every now and then, but otherwise minds his own business.
Sadly I lost one after I brought them home. I have the worst luck. The last time I got Rummies from a different store, I lost one. I guess they get stressed very easily. The ride home was very short this time, only 10 mins. But they had just been delivered so I guess stress got the best of the little guy. The others seem healthy. No one is hiding or staying on the bottom. Thanks for all the help.

*Kristin*

If the LFS cannot keep them for you, just put them in the 5 gal. tank & do a small water change every 2 days.

Try to treat the Ich first, as the Rummynose are a bit delicate & need good water.


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http://www.flickr.com/photos/corydoras/
Member of the Malta Aquarist Society - 1970.
http://www.maltaaquarist.com