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I don't really remember a tank size being specified... I surely don't remember suggesting them for a ten gallon or twenty gallon. Or for that matter more than three. Any person that has bought a fish and hasn't changed their mind or decided they wanted to change species hasn't been in the hobby very long. When was the last time that you saw a clown loach over six inches? I've been in this hobby for over five years have several large tanks up and running with clown loaches and have never seen one in person that was remotely close to six inches. Don't you think that saying you hear of stunted clown loaches everyday is a exaggeration. What I was giving was an opinion. I would hope that a person with the intelligence to ask a question on a web board would research a fish before buying it and decide on their own. I find your response that I was suggesting a fish willy-nilly rude. Clown loaches can be great fish and a great investment. I'll stand by that and everything else I said in the previous post.

I don't know about Gouramis, but I KNOW some female bettas will eat snails. I had one female who ate 5 that were at least as big as her head while I was watching. It does depend on the fish, and the size of the snails. Not all gouramis or bettas will eat snails though, but some have.

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sundewd to answer your question. I had 2 gouramis in my planted tank when I added a new plant from the LFS which musta had snail eggs on it. Next thing I knew, the tank was getting out of control with snails. So I think gouramis would be a poor form (or no form) of snail control.

Loaches are tops for snail control and I haven't seen a snail in my tank for over 6 months. Be careful what kind of fish are around a yo-yo. A solitary yo-yo can be a pretty mean fish. Whereas if you get a group of 3, they are happier and less likely to bug other fish.. They love to chase long finned slow fish such as guppys, and will eat all the fry.



The Amazon Nut...

Woah guys! Trust me, I've done plenty of research on every fish I've released in my aquarium-- The main reason why I payed 8 dollars for 2 rubber lipped plecos than to pay 4 dollars for 2 common plecos. Big difference in a couple years!! I have looked into clown loaches, and would never be able to keep them in my dreams. Not only because they get big but because they need to be kept in groups. I was only asking this question about gouramis because I was researching them. I was actually looking into Dwarf gouramis (its a 20gal long). In my findings, I came upon a site that claimed gouramis were good as snail control. I questioned its credibility because I had never heard of gouramis as snail control before when the typical snail eating fish were mentioned, loaches, puffers, etc. The only thing that I have put in my tank that will soon outgrow it, is my favorite, the red tiger lotus(what was I thinking!).

Disagreeing isn't the same as calling your opinions invalid. I disagree with your suggestion; that doesn't make it wrong. A nice debate isn't meant to upset, it's meant to bring out good arguments on both sides. Sorry if I got your hackles up; my passion for debate sometimes isn't matched by my "opponents"!

[span class="edited"][Edited by LittleMousling 2004-08-01 18:31][/span]

-Molly
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I guess because you work at a fish store my opinions are a moot point. Sundewd don't get clown loaches they get to big and you'll probably have to trade them in...

Okay - while I normally like to trust people to research and so on, my experiences working at the fish store have taught me that almost no one ever does. Obviously, yes, people already on here are more likely to research - but what harm does it do to check? None at all, and it's a lot safer for the fish and the person. And by excluding Sundewd I was merely trying to keep from stirring up trouble - your mention of it seems to intend the opposite.
What's the difference between the Clown Loaches and the dog? To me, there isn't any: a pet is for life. If something happens and it can't be kept, that's one thing, but actually planning to trade it in (which to me is quite equivalent to handing your dog to a shelter: unknown patronage, unknown future home, not commonly done, not generally looked favorably upon except in ignorance situations) from the beginning? Your tank, your fish, but I certainly am not going to stand back and let you sell that approach without adding two cents to the other side of the scale.

-Molly
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By basically saying you cant trust people to research their decision you are saying that all posters are basically irresponsible fish keepers. A disclaimer saying "not you Sundewd" doesn't mean you don't mean him. Why would you post it if you didn't. As far as saying I buy fish to trade them in you didn't read the post clearly. I said "If you decide not to keep them" that there are people out there who are interested in having this particular fish. If and when they were to get to that size only a true aquarist would be willing to pay the price that the clowns would be selling for. No I would not get a Great Dane and give him away to a shelter. I would research the potential size of that species of dog and decide wether or not it would be compatible with my lifestyle. Which is what I would expect of someone who is asking questions in a forum to learn more. I don't feel that babying every member that asks a question is the right approach to helping people.

Just because people often change their minds doesn't mean that's the way things ought to go. And, no, tank size wasn't mentioned, which is why I think recommending the Clowns was irresponsible: you can't trust people to research, generally (not you, Sundewd, I'm sure you will), and you have no way of telling if the tank in question is 5 gallons or five hundred. Simply asking before recommending a fish that gets very large and lives in groups is an easy way to keep from leading someone down an unpleasant road. And I stand by my opinion that buying fish in expectation of trading them in down the road (a big difference between that and being forced to make tank and stock changes, BTW) is simply awful. Would you buy a Great Dane puppy for an apartment with plans to dump it at the local shelter before it hit 30"?

-Molly
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I read on a web site somewhere that gouramis can be used as snail control. Is this true?
Thanks in advance,
Sundewd

Some of us choose not to keep the fish we advise against for the very reasons we suggest against it. Slow growth or not, fish are for life - or ought to be. Selling fry is one thing, but buying a fish with the express purpose of selling it down the line? Not exactly my favorite plan. Why not recommend fish that do the same job but can live an entire, happy life in the tank they're cleaning? A group of Clown Loaches growing out to six inches in a 55 is one thing, but would you really suggest them for a 20? A 30? Of course not - that would be absurd. Putting a group of 12" fish-to-be in a tank too small for their full size is just asking for stocking problems, stunting, and bad health. Trust me, frightening tales of stunted and "inexplicably dying" clown loaches are daily fare at the LFS I'm working at this summer, and a lot of it is "they eat snails" and "they're so pretty" becoming "well, I bought one for my 10 gal" or 6 for my 20, etc. Why buy a fish you can't really keep when there are lovely alternate choices? The Yoyo loach, for example, is a top snail-eater and a dead gorgeous fish - which maxes out at a fairly skinny 4".

-Molly
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I have some yoyo loaches that I use for that purpose.

It would take years upon years before those clown loaches hit a size near six inches. They are some of the slowest growing fish I have kept. I know people who have had clown loaches for five years and are only just approaching six inches. Besides if you ever had any grow that big you could make big dollars selling them (if you decided not to keep them). I have seen clown loaches going for 30 dollars at the 3-3.5 inch range. If anything it is an investment. Unfortunatly, some people give advice without truly understanding what they are talking about. Some without ever having even kept the fish in question. Take it as you will.

I wouldn't recommend Clown Loaches willy-nilly - very very few people have the space to maintain a group through adulthood. There are other loach species that are equally good snailers and won't hit 12+ inches!

-Molly
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A good way to get rid of small snails is to get some clown loaches. They usually do good in a group of three or more. Clown loaches will eat the baby snails and you can pick out the big ones when you see them. Eventually your tank should clean up and you'll have some of the coolest fish IMO on the market.

It depends on the fish - crush a few snails in front of them and see if they make the connection. If they can figure out that snail = food, most can also find a way to get the snail of the shell.

-Molly
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apparently not ... 3 blue gouramis and I have more snails than gravel :%)