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Do u mean true by solid green? Solid greens, and not bluish or with lots of irridesence, are pretty uncommon but not rare. To find one in a petstore would be rare. There are greens in the petstore but they are usually with redwash or other colours, and most are actually turquoise.

ashley

Ontariobetta - on what are you basing that? The old timers are constantly lamenting the dearth of true mustard gas out there, for one. I admit not-quite MGs are as common as dirt, but that's not the same. Similarly, I can find an "orange" betta at a petstore, or nearly, but a real orange, that can't possibly be confused with dark yellow or washed-out red? Almost no one's breeding them right now. I agree black lace is common but I stand by my answer: find a fertile melano female (particularly one that throws fertile melano females!) and you may really have a one-of-a-kind fish!

-Molly
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ablino is the rarest however finding a prue bred MG i think is hard to find. also i think a perfict butterfly is rare also.

by true green I mean one that looks only green and doesn't have turquoise or blue in the color. Like when I bought one of my bettas I thought I was getting a completely black betta, but when I looked at him in better light he has red/blue/turquoise coloring and doesn't look black at all. I'd like to find one that has green as the only color.

Just wanted to clarify that the "golds" that I have are indeed "gold" and not just yellow. Once I take some pics maybe I shall post them in this thread. (Although I do like the yellow's a great bit too but don't have any, PhoneShannen said I cannot buy anymore bettas!)]:|

apparenly its been done...


well, notcompletely and it will be a while til the strain is actually a 'strain' so to speak, but there have been good results in a few sing fish farms with a black lace/melano outcross, producing a good many fish showing melano phenotype. I know it will take many years, but it produces much richer blacks than the steel blue cross so i am told (hard to tell from photos)

looking foward to it whatever happens



For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Here's how we corner it: find the fertile melano female!

-Molly
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*Worries about competition from Molly*

I say we unite and storm the market!!

Wow, someone's actually seen that page? Not that I don't stand by my opinion, but the shortmoons are turning me back toward the dark side ... give it a few years and maybe I'll get into breeding again, just a bit. Just a couple of spawns, I can handle it, I swear! Nothing big! I don't need your help!

-Molly
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P.S dont bee so upptight

ashley

$50 for a pair is all you paid? (j/k)

Well the mate n I ARE new to this but we figure it better to pay more for a good/in demand breeding stock, if we are ever going to get anything out of it. Yes i did read your do not breed bettas page. Thanks for the FYI.

edit:
Where do you think we got the golds from.
"But i guess in this discussion it does"
Exactly, so hush!


ps: learn how to use spell check.

[span class="edited"][Edited by phoneshannen 2004-07-24 21:49][/span]

Ay but are they actually gold or just yellow?? REAL gold as just been 'invented' in Thailand recently. This is a real gold: http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwbettasd1089263482 shiny eh

And what do u mean by "Just because your outfit can not support the price " are you saying Iam poor????? I really don't apreciate my thoughts being called silly. You can beleive what ever u like, and iam not going to stop you. Bu I stand by what I said, and I have been involved with bettas for a number of years. Just because you don't see them in a LFS doesn't mean they are rare, But i guess in this discusion it does...

Yup, we moved it to PM.

I don't see the problem paying for expensive bettas if the fry are going to recoup that - buuuuut, I'm shocked at what sells as "halfmoon" these days. I'm not paying $50 and shipping for a pair of fish unless the female has four or more branches and straight outer rays, the male has a wide dorsal, straight ventrals, an actual, documented 180 spread with full-length, straight outer rays, a good solid tail end to support the caudal, significant overlapping of the fins - but not so much finnage that I think he's too old to be a long-term breeder. Short (young) yet excellent finnage, plus a good long body, a nice expression, a chest that isn't too deep, and enough spunk to flare for photos - that's worth a good bit. And some of those short moons are something else, absolutely gorgeous. Wake me in 2025 when I can pick one of them up at the LFS for a pet!

-Molly
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Sorry. Got a wee bit off topic there a bit.

Ehem! Enough about dogs! Lets get back to bettas.

gold is uncommon because it is such a new colour

ontariobetta, Just because your outfit can not support the price (we have 6 ) of the gold strain is no reason for you to say that. I don't feel like quoting the rest of your silly ideas as to what is rare.

I do challenge you to go to your LFS and find any of the colors I mentioned. All are available online to the more informed, but for the common fish person, you just don't see them. So pretty much all the ones I mentioned ARE in their own right rare. Oh yeah and yes they are half moons and crown tails.

IMO if you have to pay 30+ bucks for a freagin betta it better be some what special.

I'm glad you're enjoying it. It's nice to share ideas with someone who isn't screaming for me to accept their position "just because."

My Dach is a great dog. However, she is as dumb as a box of rocks. She was born to a mother Dach- pure bred and registered- who got loose when she was in heat (they are excellent diggers) and came home pregnant with a neighbor dog's pups. (The owner found her "with" the male dog, so it's known exactly who the father is as there were no other males in the area at the time.) The father was called a "ming ping" and I have no clue what that is. Now, I love my little mutt, but I have to face it that she is most definitely not going to be asked to join Doggy Mensa anytime soon. So I can kind of understand why people would want to breed only the most intelligent of dogs to ensure offspring who don't run themselves into the same fecne 6 or 7 times in a row because they don't "get" that the fence ain't moving. My dog was spayed as soon as she was old enough because if she's this dumb, what would her babies be like. But I don't love her any less for her imperfection. My other mutt however is very smart. He figured out how to use his nose to open the latch on his gate. Now we have to latch the gate with bungies to keep him in his pen. (He's too big and furry to live indoors, so we made him a HUGE pen outside and let him loose to run in the yard whenever we're out there with him.

And yeah, my acquaintance tried to return the dog, but the breeder was so well known and respected (though they later found others who said the same thing had happened to them) everyone believed him when he said it wasn't one of his pups.

I just believe in NATURAL selection over HUMAN selection. Nature has had billions of years to figure out how things should work with the process of selection and that's far longer then we've even been around.

Don't worry, I'm greatly enjoying the debate - too much, even!

Before exterminators, good steel traps, and those "sonic anti-mole" things, dogs like your Doxie were needed to kill vermin. Do we still need that? No - but we got a lovely, intelligent, active dog into the bargain, completely unique from any other breed. If it weren't for the good breeders (just to reiterate, I'm only arguing for the best breeders - I think backyard breeders, puppymills, and pretty much everyone doing "poo" crosses and the like basically fall under the headings of "waste of money" and "you'd be much better off adopting", we'd either have no Doxies, or only genetic messes that would have none of the characteristics that make Doxies unique, except perhaps the short legs. Joe Doxie + Jane Doxie = might as well adopt. Ch. Absolutely Spectacular Movement, Earthdog Champ, Great Musculature, CERF checked, and Good With Kids UDX + Ch. Spectacular Girl, Loves Everyone Even Cats, Sound As the Day She Was Born = Something special, and worth the cost. Basically, good breeding begets a guarantee: temperament, soundness, looks, intelligence, innate abilities and talent for certain things, a good puppyhood (preferably as long as possible - many breeders now keep pups until they're 12 weeks old to make sure they learn all of mom's lessons and really "get" how playing with their siblings works), a stimulating environment, on-time vaccinations and check-ups, etc. For many people that guarantee is important. You had to return a collie that was too dominant or aggressive for your family, right? Many people just don't want to take that chance. Start off with a good puppy with great genes (and don't skip puppy kindergarden and basic obedience), and you don't have to ever worry about your kids/cats/neighbors/bettas.
And just to go back into the pricing thing - essentially no non-puppymill breeder ever turns a profit. Most of the time, high puppy prices are barely supplementing the extremely expensive hobby that is dogs. Fish are expensive, but dogs can be a lot more so - registration fees, entering shows, handling classes, obedience classes, dog licenses, premium foods, collars, halters, leads, show leads, training tools, liver, liver, liver, shampoo, grooming, grooming table, clippers, crates - oy, crates! sooooo expensive! - biscuits, treats, vitamins, vet visit after vet visit after vet visit, heartworm meds, vaccinations, flea preventatives, travelling to shows, hotel rooms at shows, hotel rooms plus the pet fee, dog-mag subscriptions, puppy foods, tags - all that, plus incredible amounts of time and energy. Forget puppies - raising and showing just one dog takes absolute months of your life! Basically, the breeder is going to lose money no matter what, so charging the going rate for puppies is fairly understandable. These two or three month balls of fluff have been eating him or her out of house and home for weeks, she's been socializing them daily, cleaning up after them five, six, ten times a day, temperament testing them, calling the potential owners on the waiting list and interviewing them, washing bedding bedding bedding, putting up with illness, upset stomachs, and having to drag all the puppies *and* the reluctant mom to the vet several times ... small wonder the breeder feels okay with charging a good bit for what he or she feels is the absolute best puppies that could be produced in that breed at that time.

-Molly
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I know we don't need dogs to survive in the wild- my only point is that humans have changed them so much from their ancestors that most cannot survive without us. My mom's chihuhua wouldn't survive, but my dachsund mix would until something got her- she's already proven that she doesn't need us for food or shelter by hunting and digging herself a "cave." I don't think we should be keeping wolves opr anything like that, my only point was we've changed an animal so much that it cannot live without us. I hope I'm not sounding argumentative or anything- just trying to present my point of view.

I do see your point about how some dogs are good for different things- my Dachsund mix shows more of her dach traits that anything else as she always digging to try and get at the moles under the yard. I guess she figures if she can't get badgers (what dachs were bred to hunt), she'll get moles instead.

i'd like my $$ bettas to survive in my tank tho. I dont think SOME consideration to longevity and health is too much to ask from a show fish.

I know that a good breeder takes that into account, but online, its hard to tell who are the good breeders and who just produce good looking fish.



For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

But we don't need dogs to survive in the wild. Any given dog in a shelter wouldn't be able to survive, either - are you saying we should be keeping wolves? Most dogs were bred for certain purposes - Poodles for water retrieving, terriers for vermin control, spaniels for flushing game. Preserving those breeds means preserving those purposes, so that you can take your dog and go hunting, or an earthdog trial, or lure chasing, or whatever. If every dog on earth was let loose, well, first off, a lot of them would die, but the end result would be a world full or basenjis and Malamutes, more or less, depending on climate. When nature picks the genes, you end up with forehead wrinkles, a curly tail, no bark, and a lot of independance - this has been shown time and again. Don't get me wrong, I like basenjis and Malamutes, but they're not the right dogs for most people and they're not the right dogs for most activities. Are some breeds a little past what I would consider smart? Sure, but that's true of everything we do. What about all the great things certain breeds can do that others just can't? Guide dogs are almost all from four or five breeds, because they have the intelligence, strength, ability to listen to and connect with one owner, trustworthiness, and so on. I wouldn't trust a blind relative to any old unknown dog - I'd want a known quantity, raised from birth to be an ideal guide dog and with the genes to be great at it. If you have small children, it's safer to get a dog of a known breed and background - you know this dog doesn't have some trigger from its past that could cause it to hurt my child, that it's been raised well, that it's exactly what your family is looking for. If there weren't good breeders out there, we'd lose the wonderful, incredible variety of dogs there are for every family, sport, and purpose you can imagine - we'd end up with the two varieties previously mentioned. Who wants that? You yourself have had collies and a Chi - far cries from a basenji or a Mal. The variety of dogs is part of what keeps them at the incredible level of popularity they've had for thousands of years. If I don't have time for coat care - there's a short-coated breed for me! If I don't have a lot of time for walking the dog - there's a small breed that can get most of its exercise in chasing us around the house. The list goes on and on. Basically: I reserve my right, and others', to get the healthiest, soundest, most genetically secure puppy available of whatever breed we think is right for us if we prefer that to adopting at this particular time in our lives. And what's wrong with that?

-Molly
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See, you both bring up one of the reasons I'm against this elitit breeding- humans, NOT Nature, are deciding which genes should be passed along to subsequent generations. I just don't see humans as being capapble of making wise decisions in this area. I mean, those dogs and cats who have trouble breathing because of their flat faces (I can't remember the breeds at the moment) were bred to have flat faces because humans find it attractive. In truth, the only animals I can think of that humans haven't "ruined" by selective breeding are most livestock- horses and most cattle I believe can go from being domestic to living in the wild with little trouble. Most dog breeds would have a very hard time surviving if all human life suddenly disappeared. Can you really see a chihuahua or pug successfully surviving for very long without its humans?

And I don;t know much about the breeder they went to- as I said, I don't like all of that fancy dogbreeding stuff, so I wouldn't even know how to begin checking out a breeder.

There's always a fluke, and there's always a story to illustrate said fluke. When you say respected - by who? If you seek out a breeder who's held in high regard by members of whatever community they compete in (conformation, obedience, etc), who interviews the buyer about the puppy rather than the other way around, and who can get you in touch with every person he or she has ever sold a puppy to - there's simply no chance of a problem like that. Temperament is genetic: friendly, happy dogs beget friendly, happy dogs. Just as there are horror stories on the purebred side, the same pops up on the mixed side. I've been bitten several times (as has pretty much anyone who visited the house the dog lives in the first eight or ten months they had him) by a friend's adopted dog. Have they stopped him biting? Yes, after almost a year of work, and he'll never be fully trustworthy. Another friend's family has been showing boxers for years, and I've never had to so much as think about the possibility of being bitten or growled at, because they're careful about the puppies they buy and the dogs they breed. Of course, I have no fear about my adopted dog, either. Most dogs are good solid animals, and most lack really serious health problems. Did your friend see the OFA certification on the parents? If they weren't rated "good" or "excellent," they never should have been bred - good or excellent dogs just don't throw bad hips. A town's "respected breeder" can often be a conformation community's known danger: the breeder everyone knows breeds too many litters, and doesn't care enough about health. A small network of contacts within the breed would have fleshed that out quickly, in a way local talk (as evidenced) rarely does. There are bad apples in every group; that's why it makes the dog world a better place that so many people are focused on soundness, health, and temperament. Backyard breeders say "well, hey, they're both labs!", puppymills say "the pups will be worth $450," but conscientious breeders say "I want a new puppy for myself - I have an incredible female, but who's the absolute best stud I can find in the country?" A person who owns both parents needs a closer look - is he or she going for the best genes or just the convenient match?

Sorry, rambling! Basically: I love mixed breeds, but since I can't take them all home, I wish people would darned well spay and neuter, and stop breeding puppies that no one's been on a waiting list for since March. People line up for the best puppies - if you're not producing the best, why not take in some foster dogs and find homes for them instead of creating more puppies no one has room for? Thank goodness there will always be people willing to take in dogs with unknown histories, but for those who need a hypoallergenic dog, or want to be 100% sure of a safe temperament, or who want to raise a puppy to know their cat is a friend, or who want to compete in a sport that helps create better dogs (basically, conformation is about what dogs have the best genes, and deserve to be bred. Trophies are just icing on the cake) - well, don't those people deserve to get what they want as well? Safe, sound, healthy puppies - even if they have to wait six months because the best breeders may only have a litter every few years because they seek out the best two dogs available. And what's wrong with that?

-Molly
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you will find elitism in ANY type of breeding.

Being the owner of 'purebred' imports and pet store mutts, i can see the benefit of the 2.

there are big big pitfalls with buying purebreds in fish the same as there are with dogs. we recently got a batch in from a very reputable breeder with some sprt of malformation that caused them to become incredibly eggbound and explode, despite our best efforts.

they were dark yellow/orange.

funny how that happens tho, i mean, so much effort seems to be put on the "show" aspect that the "health" aspect flies out the window...

kinda sad.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

True, LOL. Although I bet if he could, my mom's betta would have done it. He's always flaring at me and trying to attack me through the glass of the tank.