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Sorry Chaos,

I have never seen the stuff in your pictures.

I am sure it can't harm to try to scrub off as much as you can though.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hello,

Actuall progress has been had. The aquarium has been mostly torn down which is good. The substrate is finally compleetly clean which will make planting better. I ordered 4 2x6inch pieces of nana petite and a 6x2inch piece of HC both of which should arrive next week. I also think my hardscape is nearly finalized. My 6700k lights arrive today and so if all goes well I will actually have a planted tank by next friday

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Excellent Chaos

I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

Remember to take lots of pictures during the setup.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have a plan and some fert questions.

So, first of all I found a wholesale rock store which has quite a selection and they didnt mind letting me have a few rocks as they normally sell in the thousands of pounds at a time

At this point I am planning on attempting a iwagumi type aquarium. The basic plan is below. I think I need a taller central rock and will revisit the rock yard. The planting Idea is on the bottom. I am not sure what grass species would look good with the other two and would be a good hight. Im still not totally set on the grass but it seems like it could look rather good if I can find the right species for this tank.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/9362/DSCF0038.JPG

http://www.picshosted.com/v/9362/DSCF0039.JPG

[link=http://www.picshosted.com/v/9362/Possible Layout.JPG]http://www.picshosted.com/v/9362/Possible Layout.JPG[/link]

Also, I know I have a lot to learn about ferts, figuring out a real regamine for CO2 and liquid ferts. Most important at the moment is what I should have on hand to help the HC in particlar to rehab from the trip. Thanks for the advice.

Chaos

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Chaos,

An igloo layout sounds good to me

But I don’t think the rocks you have in the picture are going to work. If you picture the Anubias and the HC around them then the two small ones will barely be higher than the plants. Further, your picture has no height and you say that you are going to get a taller one. But, a tall one would also require a rather wide footprint to assure that it will not fall over. As such it will take way more space in the tank than your drawing displays.

About a grassy plant, Bensaf would be the expert. Right now I have Cyperus Helferi in my big tank and it is about 12” tall, but I don’t think that is what you want. Also, maybe the whole idea of a grass wall in the back isn’t that good as it takes the focus away from the rocks.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Don't know about Iwagumi but that looks like a real nice pie

They are real nice rocks. Great color and texture but I agree with Ingo they do look a bit small.

To be a true Iwagumi there should be nothing too tall, at least not more then one specimen plant. Blyxa Japonica would be the ideal background plant.

Iwagumi tip of the day. Have the main rock in a off cnter 1:64 position. The other rocks should point towards this main rock, not in different directions as in the pics above. Odd number of rocks not an even number. Rock groupings in bunches of 3 in a triangular design.

OK that's more then 1 tip. Bill is in the post

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Can't it work with Eleocharis acicularis or another variety of hairgrass planted behind the the rocks and some blended into the front as well.

My Scapes

Hey,

Visually I hope that any grass would look like the stuff in the back here. Particularly as it is not too tall and not taller than the central rock.

http://www.adaeuro.com/images/contenuti/Fgrande/gallery_10a.jpg

I think that the Blzxa Japonica would be a good plant for this. I do have access to dwarf hiargrass localy but the plant is so feathery I dont think It will look right here. the Blyxa has some substance to the leaves which is good. The grass will definatly need to be blended some which will probably be easier with the larger leaves.

I absolutly will be on my way back to the rock yard to get some more variety so I can expirement. For the hight thing, im not sure if you were talking about the gravel in the pyrex. If so it will be more dramatic in the tank. The pyrex is what I baked the gravel in and I couldnt add to much hight. Its only slightly wider than the tank, for visual approximation. I also got some cheep gravel to use to put on the bottom on the back to help it get hight if I need it to. The drawing was ment mostly to show the kind of plant layout I am thinking of. Placing most of the anubias near the rock but having one or two little 'rogue' nanas farther away from the rocks. You guys are right about the hight of all the rocks though, I was forgetting to add the 1" layer of plants comming up around the rocks in my mind. I will show you all whatever I pick up at the rock yard (im still thrilled they have a big pile of this stuff b/c the local rocks are not thrilling.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,
If you intend on doing something like the attached pic you showed, just remember there probably is around 7 or 8 rocks in there. The plant in the midground between the rocks is ricca and that is tied to more rock that you don't see.

My Scapes

Chaos,

What looks small in that tank will look really big in yours.

This tank is about 85G (120cm x 45cm x 60cm).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The plant at the back looks to be Tennellus. Possibly "micro" Tenellus. Blyxa would look similar in time.

I ngo is right that's a very big tank. The fish are the only visual clue. Strange things about Iwagumis , they tend to make tanks look smaller.

Usually they are done in long shallow tanks, the shape suits.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh, does anyone have expirence with making gravel hills? I have seen mention in some places, with sand mostly, that it can create dead places in the sand with pockets of NH4. Would this be the case with gravel? Also i have been wondering about hill stablity. I have seen a plastic grid used to create some structure to the bottom of the countors. Does this seem like a particularly good idea to you guys or is it probably unneeded. I feel like it might be fine without support, and that the hill will solidify a bit once the HC has formed a good ground conver.

Chaos

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Chaos,

Will a gravel hill maintain its shape? That is a good question and the simple answer I would give is: No.

The longer answer is like this: It depends on the slope of the hill. I think in order to make an impression in the tank the slope would have to be rather steep as you don’t have the footprint to create a significant difference in height (valley to peak) otherwise. Now, water current, planting, and cleaning will work on that slope.

I would assume that the finer the substrate the higher the risk of the sliding becomes.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

You'll need something like a rock to support a hill. It will compress and flatten otherwise. Once plants have established a good root system it will help stabilize it. But you need some thing to keep it place until that happens.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Can I do something like use some cut up tupperware to hold the bottom of the hill together. The hill should look as below, though I am going to seek biger rocks tomarrow. This is the first picture I have where the tank looks big(ish) which is nice.


http://www.picshosted.com/v/9774/DSCF0045.JPG

Chaos

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Another idea is a flat piece of slate with a smaller flat piece of slate then cover that with gravel, then if the gravel does start to slide it will still look natural. Stack the slate until you reach the desired height, each piece about 1/2" smaller, you can create a terraced look and have a stable base for the rock on top because it can sit on the top piece of slate slightly buried in the gravel. I think the max you would need is three pieces.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Chaos,

Yes, you can do something like using a cut-up Tupperware to support the hill. From your picture I am pretty certain that such a steep hill would not maintain itself without a stabilizer. You would have to make sure that the footprint of the plastic container is large enough and also has sufficient height, my guess would be no lower than 1 inch below the gravel surface.

And just a thought: Can it be that in this layout the low right back corner could become stale (and maybe even the low front right corner as well)? I can see the water flow from top right to the front, along the glass, and back to the top left intake.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have noticed the waterflow problem before as well. though the water is not compleetly immobile there. When the water was cloudy it was very easy to see where water was moving and in general it was good. The impeller does about 100 gallons per hour so the flow is significant. Also there is an attachement which goes over the intake which makes it skim off the top of the water, which i suppose changes the circulation. I will keep an eye on the current though and will make use of the ajustible output. Are there any worries about a dead spot in the thick gravel?

thanks, chaos

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The impeller does about 100 gallons per hour so the flow is significant
I understand where LF is going, but with that small cube and 100 gph your not going to have any problems. In fact that right side if it could be maintained that way sloping down might be advantageous for collecting mulm, etc and siphoning it out easily, especially if the tank isn't going to be heavily planted.

My Scapes

Tetratech is right; sloping this way can help on the collection of “stuff” in one corner and make vacuuming easier. Still, just keep an eye open for possible dead spots, I am not saying it will happen, but it could be (100gph isn’t all that wild on a 12G tank – I have 300gph on a 29G).

I don’t think you have to worry about dead spots in the gravel any more than if the substrate would be flat. Your substrate is not so finely grained as sand, for example.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have 300gph on a 29G
LF, your an animal

I have 185gph on my 72g and believe me it's more than enough. I could see the wisteria on the right-side of my tank moving from the spraybar on the left.

My Scapes

Yeah, but your gph is coming from a huge filter while mine is from a HOB. By definition (because of the much smaller filter media compartment in an HOB) these suckers need way more gph than canisters.

I also have less gph on my 125G than I have on my 29G.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

By definition (because of the much smaller filter media compartment in an HOB) these suckers need way more gph than canisters.

How/ why is that, if you don't mind me asking?

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Back in the saddle!

How/ why is that, if you don't mind me asking
Well basically, as LF said there is more media in a cansister than an HOB, so every pass of the water comes in contact with more media both bio and mechanical so the rate doesn't have to be as high, but when we are talking about biological filteration I don't think the heavy flow is really important. In most cases a turnover rate of betweent 2 and 3 is good for a canister filter and 4 to 8 is good for a HOB. In Chaos case he has 8.3 (100gph/12g) and little_fish has 10.3 (300gph/29g). The eheims in particular are extremely good at media to water contact and usually have less flow needed than their competitors.



My Scapes

Interesting question NowherMan6,

Here is my spin on it:

I will use my own filters as an example, which are an AquaClear 70 with 2 sponges and an Eheim 2028 with 4liters of bio media (Ehfisubstrat) and 1liter of mechanical filtration (Ehfimech) media, plus a blue pad for rough debris and a fine white pad for smaller debris.

As you can already see by these numbers, it is obvious that the canister can collect more “stuff” until it needs cleaning, but that is not the question here.

So, here comes my dilettante attempt of an explanation :

Water that goes through the filter needs contact with the filter material in order to achieve a cleaning process (obvious). The less filter material is available the more un-cleaned water will have the chance to return to the tank. I am not talking about larger size debris that will be captured by both, but the small sized particles that are trapped by filter material by chance (it ever so happens that the dirt particle is pushed into a pore of the filter material and as such is blocked from returning to the tank). So, in order to give a smaller filter (and compared to Canisters all HOBs are small) a chance to clean sufficiently one has to push the water through it more often.

Does that make sense to you? If not then I am willing to try better (if I can).

Hope this helps,

Ingo

EDIT: I am sure tetratech's explanation wasn't there when I typed mine

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 24-Jan-2006 10:25

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks guys, both posts made perfect sense.

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Back in the saddle!

Speaking of filtration. water in my filtration goes though about 9 inches of sponges, then through bioballs and carbon then into the impleller. If you can picture this it is 3 seperate chambers, so water goes down then up then down. Because the entire first camber is sponge would I be able to feed an air stone attached to diy co2 in there and place it in between two of the sponges and use that as a co2 reactor to get good difusion? I was thinking this would be better than feeding it directly into impeller because of corossion issues.

Chaos



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Chaos,

That is exactly how tetratech had his CO2 injected for a while. Albeit it wasn't DIY, he neverthelss stuck an airstone tight in the filter intake (he can tell you more about that).

I have my Power Reactor right next to the filter intake and most bubbles are sucked into the filter. I have no problems so far and my CO2 ppm is just fine.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have a question about how that works. It may not be an issue in a canister filter but how would it work in a HOB filter? Wouldn't the CO2 be lost as the water returned back to the tank? What would be the best way to inject CO2 with a HOB filter? A glass diffuser? I am thinking about getting the Hagen ladder and CO2 kit for my 25g, and wondering if this would be an ok way to go. The tank won't be high-light ever, it may eventually be almost 2 wpg if I get the new hood I want to get. So I don't really need huge amounts of CO2 going into the tank do I?

Oops, that was more than one question, I'm just so glad to be able to be back on the site! I still have the shakes of withdrawal from yesterday. Don't ever do that to me again!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hey krib,

That's just what I do for my tank. See the pic below, left side.



The glass diffuser is right under the outflow of the HOB filter. Bubbles go up then get knocked back down into the tank. By the time they get back to the surface CO2 has been diffused. I get better saturation this way than with my old reactor (same as LFs)

Tetra does the same now with an airstone and the spray bar from the canister filter. Works the same way, as long as there is force enough to knock the bubbles back down, and to distribute flow around the tank.

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Back in the saddle!

Because the entire first camber is sponge would I be able to feed an air stone attached to diy co2 in there and place it in between two of the sponges and use that as a co2 reactor to get good difusion
LF,
I think Chaos wants to insert the co2 line right into the filter media itself and bypass the intake. I'm not sure of the physical setup of those filters I guess it's like an HOB. My only problem with that is the water coming back into the tank. If it's above the water level co2 will be lost. I think your better off doing what nowher and I do either with a glass diffusor, hagen ladder or airstone under the return.

My Scapes

Ill post a diagram if I can find one because its not like a biowheel hob.

Choas

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So I don't really need huge amounts of CO2 going into the tank do I?

You need to be hitting 30ppm of Co2 regardless of light or plants. Any less and you are benefitting certain types of algae over the plants.

True you may need to pump less gas into the system to maintain 30ppm where there is low light or not many plants. But that's not same as thinking 15ppm will be fine where there is less light/plants.
Can you see the difference in the 2 situations ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hey all,

btw, how do you test the ppm of co2 ? I am fairly sure that it could be done by monitoring the change in ph between night when a bubbler is on and day when there is only injection, but im betting that there is a different method.

So my filter, depicted in the link below is about 3 inches deep and 13 inches wide and 13 inches tall. The green and red circles are the two possible co2 injection points, which seems most advantageous to you guys.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/10300/untitled.JPG

Chaos

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Chaos,

If this are the two options then I would say pick the one that is further away from the impeller, means the green one. Large bubbles at the impeller might damage it over time.

About how to calculate CO2: there are 2 parameters that one needs to consider for CO2 in ppm: one is the ph, the other is KH in German Degrees (roughly 17ppm = 1 degree).

Once these 2 values are known, all you have to do is to go to a chart like this one from Chuck Gadd (scroll down on page).

For example: in this chart, a ph of 6.6 and a KH of 3 degrees gives you 23ppm of CO2.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Check your KH before adding Co2. This is the buffer that keeps the pH stable. It needs to be a minimum of 2-3 degrees before adding Co2 otherwise the pH will drop extremely low and e to wild shifts.

KH can be increased by the addition of baking soda. If the KH is 3 or above don't touch it.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ok, ill look into it. Sounds about right though with the buffering. I was just wondering if there was a dirrect test for co2, but couldnt think of how to do it.

Chaos

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Hi,

I GOT PLANTS!!!! a few quick questions.

I did basic water chem of the tap water in my house

GH- 7 german degrees
KH- 4 german degrees
pH 7.4-7.6
N03- 0
NO4- 0
NH4- 0

Here are the plants ive got. I wanted to doubble check before I plant. I should plant all the anubias roots up untill 1mm before the risome. For the HC. Should I just cut it into small pieces with siccors and then try to bury how much of the root??? Also, fyi i got kent freshwater pro plant to supply basic nutrients for the moment.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0048.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0049.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0051.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0052.JPG

I will be planting in about 4 hours and I would love any advice you guys are willing to give before then. Pictures will be up soon of the planted stuff and unless i am forgetting a reason against this i will have 2 fish tomarrow and biospira in then too.

thanks all, Chaos

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Sorry, no experience with HC, but what you said seems about right - just bury the roots. Tweezers may help.

As for the anubias, anchor with the roots, but try not to get any gravel over too much fo the rhizome. You may even want to tie the roots to a small stone with green thread. it's up to you.

great looking plants BTW

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Back in the saddle!

Is it just the photo or are the Anuboas leaves covered in BBA ? The leaves look black in the photo.

If they are coated with BBA best to get rid of it before putting into the tank.

Dip the Anubias in a 10% bleach solution for 1-2 minutes. Dip them by holding them upsidedown by their roots. Try to have only the leaves in the solution and not the roots. Rinse thoroughly in tap water afterwards or soak for a few mins in water with some de-chlor.

The BBA will have turned white and will disappear completely in a couple of days.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ill check, but the anubias was grown emmersed (sp? out of water) so I think its just the picture. Thanks for looking so closely though,

Chaos

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Hey all,

I have planted with relative sucess, Some of my squares of HC keep trying to escape. Still things are looking up and will be somewhat fishy tomarrow.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/10877/DSCF0055.JPG

more pics tomarrow

chaos


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The Anubias are fine. The tank pic is much clearer, the plants look in excellent condition.

I would plant the Anubias closer to the rocks though, have them play off one another visually. Maybe something planted between the 2 biggest rocks.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

chaos,

the tank really looks excellent. In a few weeks when the HC forms a carpet I'm sure it'll be stunning. You certainly seem to be on your way to a fine emulation of that type of design you were after.

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Back in the saddle!

Chaos,

I agree with NowherMan6, it looks really nice and you were able to create your recent vision of the tank. Good job

I also agree with Bensaf that it seems like there is something missing between the 2 larger rocks. But this might have something to do with the angle from which this picture was taken. Maybe you can give us a few more shot from different viewpoints.

And one important thing: You will have to get a red permanent marker and draw a big X on the spot where you took this picture so all subsequent piccies, in which we will see the amazing growth, will be from the same position .

Have fun,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

Im going to have go to with a tape measure as drawing a red x on my faimly room carpet will bring the end of my ability to keep an aquarium in that room.

Ill put up more pics but that area right between the rocks is bare. I cant help not wanting to put all the anubias right there where it cant be seen. I am still thinking about using a grass in the back, something about 10 cm tall with a blade that has a little width and curve to it would be good. Some of this could possibly occupy this space.

Chaos

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so my water seems to have cleared up compleetly. Also i changed the pH from 7.6 to 6.6 before introducing the lemons last night. The have been seeming skittish still and are spending a lot of time swimming against the currents on the side of the tank instead of hanging out in the middle. This might have been because it was bright in the tank and dark in that room so it was like being in a mirrored box. I will see how they do with a sunlit room.

Chaos

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Chaos,

are spending a lot of time swimming against the currents on the side of the tank instead of hanging out in the middle

Have you considered that this might be a good sign? It seems to me as if they are having fun. Stressed out fish would not go to a place in the tank where they have to work hard just to maintain their position.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Swimming against the side of the tank is normal for schooling fish when first introduced to a tank. Not only do they like the current (most of these tetras and rasboras in the trade are from flowing water systems anyway, it's instinct for them) but new fish often see their reflections in the glass and think it's more of their own kind, so they try to school with their reflections. After a while they should calm down a bit, but I always saw it as them just trying to find more of their own kind in this new location. Hell, my yo-yo loaches still try to school with their reflections sometimes

Also, as a general rule, fish of all types tend to gravitate towards some kind of structure. rarely will you see a school hanging out in the wide open - it's always around something poking up, some rock or wood, or right at the outskirts of the plants - some reference point. My guess is they'll take a liking to your big rock at some point

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Back in the saddle!

My krib was doing this one night, I have never seen her do that before but she really wanted to get to the 'new fish' she had found! Sometimes I think she wants to school and the barbs will let her 'school' with them as long as she obeys the rules. She puts up with this then decides she's "TOP FISH" and tells them all off. LOL! It's quite the thing to see. Even the SAE sometimes 'schools' with the barbs!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hey,

It did indeed cross my mind that this was a good thing, but i wasnt sure. It sort of looked like they were trying to get out which is why I was wondering. Also I do know that I havent provided much protection in the way of physical shelter so it makes sense that numbers are most comforting at the moment. With the lights off they swim more around the middle then with them on so it probably does have to do with the reflection.

I chose this one spcific shop because of how healthy all their fish are. Its low trafic so they keep everything in good order. The lemons looked good, yellow sides, very bright red above the eye and active. I dont know if the two i have are mature enough to sex them, but if they are then I would say both are males. Mabey ill be able to get some ok pics of them. My digital isnt as versatile as I would like.

Chaos

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then I would say both are males

So you only got 2?

I guess you will up the group later, right? They like to be in a school, just in case you didn't know that.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, there only were two, but I planed on getting only two to begin because i was afraid that more might cause a signfiicant NH4 problem in a 12 gallon. Am I being too cautous?

yesterday tests showed about 0.1 ppm NH4 and 0.2 ppm NO2 so the biospira are doing their work.

The final population of lemons will probably be 8. the only other fish will be ottos (or some other maitnence fish)

CHaos

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Chaos,

I don't think you are too cautious, I just wanted to make sure that your plan is to up the group later.

I thought that you selected 2 because of cycling concerns, and that was a good move. I would suggest that maybe in about 10 days you add 2 more, and another 7 days later the next 2.

Have fun witht them,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok, cool.

Ill try to get pictures up tomarrow. They are obviously more comftorable now, as they are swimming seperatly a little now. All seems well

updates soon,

Chaos


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Hello,

here are a few pics

http://www.picshosted.com/v/11368/DSCF0002.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/11368/DSCF0074.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/11368/DSCF0080.JPG

You can see the fish and all. In the verticle one you can see the anubias is growing a new leaf. It was unopened when I planted. I also noticed a brownish algae growing on the one other anubias. this is pictured and I am not sure if it is growing specificly on this piece becasue this piece is probably dying ( i think it broke of a main piece and didnt take much risome with it)

Anyway things seem to be going well. NH4 and NO2 are both under 0.25 ppm. (I wanted to check though that the Dr. Fish (that on the logo) tests are accurate ones)

Chaos

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Looking very clean, Chaos

The algea that you describe is visible in the first picture, right?

Some thoughts to it:

Brown algae are usually diatoms, little critters that live of silica which is often available in new tanks (from glass and substrate). When they amass some more they get a fluffier look, like dust bunnies. Harmless and will stop reproducing one excess silica is depleted.

On the other hand, it looks also as if it could be simply a layer of dust. Can it be that this anubias sits in a spot where the current isn't all that strong?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hello,

Ingo, that was the brown algae I was wondering about.

I have a few questions I need help with:

1. There is a white thread, almost looks like spider silk comming off the top leaves of my anbias. Does anyone know what this is? I saw a thread about white thread but am not sure we are talking about the same thing.

2. Baby snail. Well I found one and assume that there are others somewhere. Is there anything I should do about this?

3. Plant growth, or lack there of. The anubias seem to be growing faster than the HC. While the anubias are only opening 1 leaf each I can see that they are growing and pearling (just tiney bubbles on the leaves). The HC however seems to be relativly unchanged. Assuming that I didnt do any damage or anything with cutting the carpet inot really small pieces I believe the problem must be nutrients. I have light, and enough of that. The only macro I can really look at is NO3, what should I try to have for that. Also, DIY co2 will be starting this week hopefully and I will ask questions about that on the tech tinkering board. I know 30 ppm is the goal for this. Is there anything else worth consider (should I consider that I am just feeling impatient with the HC?)

4. Green algae is beginning to take its place on the rocks and glass. its just a small amount but I was wondering for stocking the tank if I should get one of my ottos sooner rather than later. There has been little in the way of a NH4 spike so far, thanks to biospira im sure, and dont know if the tank is stable enough that the otto would be happy. Either way I expect to add 2 or 3 more fish in mabey 4 days.


Thanks all, Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

should I consider that I am just feeling impatient with the HC

Once CO2 is added it'll take off a bit more. Besides, plants don't usually explode as soon as they get planted - usually takes some time for them to put out roots and really get themselves in growing mood. Just make sure you're providing everything you can for them, as long as it's all there they'll grow well. CO2 is what's lacking now.

As for the algae and the oto - not sure, it's a tough call. The new tank and presence of ammonia may be tough on the guy, as will be the lack of friends and plant cover for that matter. Diatoms and a little bit of green algae are pretty normal at the start, just push through and get that CO2 going

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Back in the saddle!

Hmm, i was wondering about the plant cover thing. The plan I have for this tank would not provide the ottos much of a place to go hide if they wanted to. Is there another animal which might be more sutiable?

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,
White thread:
Could be a bacteria or algae. Sometimes thread algae is very pale and doesn't show much color. Any chance of a pic.

Snails:
Everyone get's them. There's always some eggs on the plants. I always got them but for some reason they never got out of hand. Always a few around the tank. I wouldn't worry to much about it. If they get out of hand there are ways to control population.

Plant growth:
The HC isn't getting wait it needs at this point to take off. As Nowher said Co2 will make a big difference assuming other ferts are available. No3 should be between 10 and 20ppm. po4 1 to 2ppm. In a 12gallon that's probably about 1/8tsp no3 3/times weekly. A 1/10th of that for po4.

Algae/Otos:
Normal to have some green algae on rocks/glass as Nowher said. If you keep up on WC you shouldn't have a problem with otos. The rocks will give them a place to hide. I would wait a few more days and try adding a few. Don't try to make the tank look perfect from the getgo. What I mean is if you float some plants, Hydro, wisteria it will help absorb excess waste and also help the fish. Then when things stablize you could remove them. The biofilter IMHO is critical in the beginning and the plants will help with biofilteration.







My Scapes

Chaos,

Besides what the others mentioned already:

I think Bensaf once mentioned that HC is, compared to other carpet plants, a slow grower and needs some time to get established.

Pearling on the anubias is not a sign of growth, IMHO. If it is really a leaf that is pearling then there is an injury on it (no problem though), if it is a flower then this is normal.

Otos: Would wait a little and get at least 3. Depending what you mean by green algae (threads or spots) the Otos might not be of any help anyway, as they don't eat the spot version. When I set up my big tank quite a few leaves on my Anubias got the green spots. They never went away and when the plant started to put out a few new leaves I bagan to cut off the heavily spotted leaves. Now, that the tank is established, no new spots are developing.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

HC is favored by many as a carpet because it is such a slow grower. It takes some time to get established.

Anubias are indestructible and need no time to adjust. You could grow them in a closet

Algae is normal at start up, especially with no Co2 going in.

Keep on top of it and remove , clean glass etc as often as possible. It doesn't like to harassed.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

nice looking planted tank you have chaos



is your anubias planted into the substate? (flourite)

they need their roots etc out in open with good water flow around them or they will rot.

is they are rotting it could be causing problems that the algae love.

just an idea.
keep up the good work
Karl

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk

shekoi,

Anubias don't really need all their roots in the open. Only the rhizome cannot be buried, not even slightly. I have all my Anubias in the substrate, with the rhizome elevated above.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey all, I have a sick fish

Ive never had any luck helping fish get better so any advice would be great.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/26660.1.htm?0#

Thanks.

Oh, btw current tank conditions are

pH 7.6 (im trying to slowly lower this but it wont seem to move)
NH4 - 0.25ppm
NO2 - 2 ppm
NO3 - 5 ppm
Temp, 78*F


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Chaos,

I saw your hospital entry. I am no fungus expert, but I guess a treatment with Melafix and Primafix can't harm (if it doesn't get better soon).

On to another question:

pH 7.6 (im trying to slowly lower this but it wont seem to move)

How do you do that? And what is your GH/KH?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

GH- 7 german degrees
KH- 4 german degrees

I got what is supposed to be an accidic pH buffer. It doesnt seem like it is really working. I am slowly adding it and the pH isnt changing.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

I wouldn't bother with any of those buffer products. Unncessary and it will throw off your numbers when you test.

At a kh of 4 and a ph of 7.6 you have basically no co2.
As mentioned the co2 addition will lower ph considerably. You can add some peat media to the filter. It might give the water a slightly brown tint to it, but it will lower your ph naturally until you get the co2 going.

My Scapes

7.6 is nothing, there's really no reason to mess with it, as tetra said. CO2 will do that for you, that's the way you want to bump it down.

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Back in the saddle!

Plus, as you change the water, the KH and GH will go back to what they were as will the pH. You need to get lots of peat to really make any effect and I have found that adding it to the water and letting it sit for a week help, then the water going in is already conditioned and has lower KH, GH, and pH. If you want to go this route I'll be happy to explain what I have found to work for me.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hello all,

The one fish who was sick got worse fast and died a few hours ago. I would like advice about when to get the remaining lemon (who seems ok) a tank mate.

Also, the various algaes which are in the tank are big enough that I will be able to photograph them in the morning. The anubias are rather covered in various things. There are 4 varieties in the tank I can see and only one is somthing the ottos would munch on. Anyway pictures will help the most.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I would wait to be sure the remaining one doesn't also get sick. If it was a fungal fin rot then there may be spores left, introducing any new fish may cause the tanks parameters to change enough to bring on a new bout. Wait for a few water changes, test the tank and let it complete it's cycle (you still had ammonia right?). Then I would suggest to let the tank be. The remaining medicine may catch whatever is in the tank, allow the cycle to complete then do a water change and add activated charcoal to the filter to remove the medicine, you don't want to create a resistant form of fungus then you'll never get it out.
The same goes if it was bacterial, you want to be sure to get it all and not make a super-bacter that can withstand treatment.
I went over your thread again and the tank is not finished the cycle, so I will say no water change until the nitrites are all gone oryour remaining fish begin to show signs of illness. I may be wrong here but I think it's best to let the tank finish cycling before adding any more fish. About what to do with the meds, take out or leave in I'm just not sure.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Also, the various algaes which are in the tank are big enough that I will be able to photograph them in the morning.

Chaos,
Some algae is inevitable in a new setup, but the things that will minimize them are:

1. Using carbon for the first few weeks
2. Seeding the filter with an established tank's gravel, bioballs, etc.
3. Filling it with plants.

That said, depending upon the intensity of your lights, amount of NH3 and whether you did any of the above will dictate how bad your alage gets.

My Scapes

amount of NH3

Tiny amounts of this will give you the dreaded GW Moniter closely...

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Back in the saddle!

I do have to say, it seems odd that the fish's condition would have deteriorated so rapidly. In your other post you initially said that it had been fine, then suddenly dropped dead after a day of losing color. I would think that the stress of the infection combined with the cycling pollutants (you quoted ammonia and nitrite being present) killed the fish. I know it's just conjecture, but that is what I think happened.

No need to add more fish until you're through with the cycle. If you want to remove the meds without doing a water change, just add some activated carbon in your filter.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Sorry to hear that Chaos

I am torn between recommending the addition of a new tetra and telling you to wait. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I know I would add one.

I think it has been mentioned above, it might be a good idea to add some floating plants to increase the plant mass while the "real" plants get established.

Sorry again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey all,

I have new pictures, sorry they are so large but I wanted to make sure you could clearly see the algae and the anubias. Its hard to see if the anubias are still ok under all that algae.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/12000/DSCF0025.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/12000/DSCF0026.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/12000/DSCF0027.JPG

I checked and the fish store does have more lemons. I am really on the fence about weather the fish will be so stressed it will get sick if it is alone. Many of you mentioned meds, the thing was there wernt any. I noticed the fungus in the afternoon and the info I got back in the 'hospital tank' thread said this was probably somthing which had to do with stress from water quality and that a water change was the most important action. I believe it also indicated that this was an external thing for the fish. When I got home yesterday almost all of the fish's color was gone and it had red spots visable inside its body (internal bleeding?) by midnight the fish was dead and the initally white fuz was brown and it looked a little like the stomach might have been an open wound at the time of death.

So there was no meds because the suggestion was that it was external and it seemed to match the disease discribed because the fish was acting normaly though it had the fuzz.

The second fish is being more active again, but it has lost a little color, though not a lot, and may have a little bit of white on one of its fins. So mabey I will add another to comfort it but only if it is looking ok tomarrow afternoon.


On the algae side of things, That long brown fuzz has doubled in lenght each of the last 3 days. The stuff which looks like brown dirt on the leaves (diatoms it was suggested) are not growing a lot. The green thread and the normal green algae are spreeding too. to answer some questions

1 I am using cabon,
2 I seeded the filter with biospira only (algaes probably came with the fish)
3. the plants in the tank are slow growers, I think wiesteria was suggested to float in the tank because it was a quick grower?
4 the tank is 4watts per gallon. tell me if it makes sense to run at half power for the moment.
5 CO2 will begin this weekend hopefully

BTW with the algae i am not worried about how it looks at the moment, I am worried about it choking out the real plants. I keep being told that the anubias would survive arctic winter but Im a nervous because they ended up being a bit of an investment

Tiny amounts of this will give you the dreaded GW Moniter closely...

Sorry, GW?


Wow, lots today, Thanks so much for the help in my attempt to conquer the CHAOS in my tank!

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

This is a diatom bloom, very common in a new tank. They live of silica found in glass and substrate.

Very harmless to fish and plants, actually fry love it as food. Just take as much out by hand as you can when you have some time and during maintenance.

Glad it is this kind, not much to worry here. Your plants will be ok.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

GW=green water, a green algae bloom. makes the water look like pea soup...

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Back in the saddle!

Well I see why you go by the name of Chaos.

Listen I appreciate the fact that your using carbon and you used a bio starter, but with that plant mass you can not hold back algae wit 4wpg and no mature biofilter. When I mean seed with gravel I'm talking about taking the gunk and gravel from an established tank and either putting a sock full of it in your filter or under the gravel itself.

If I was you I would do this:

1. Clean off as much as you can.
1. Change 50% of the water every other day.
3. Add a &^%*% of floating plants.
4. Use 2wpg most of the day maybe 4 for an hour if you think the HC needs it.

With 4wpg and your nh3 at .25 your in Chaos!


My Scapes

hmm, I am forgetting my orders of magnitude.

I know any NH4 is bad, but is it 0.2 which is getting to be very bad, or is it 2.0ppm. I know both are bad, but one is close to the expected maximum during cycling.

If 0.2 is very bad then I will let the NH4 drop to zero before adding a second fish.

Very harmless to fish and plants

hope you dont blame me for being cautius with every new orginism that I dont recognize. I wish I had a microscope around, ill bet the diatoms look cool.

Chaos

( I got the name from latin class in middle school [ chaos was the first of the roman gods, he existed befor any of the others], the maximus came when another guy in the class, but a year ahead [both year 2 and 3 were in one period] started annoying the teacher so she promoted me to chaos maximus, he became chaos minimus)

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I am with tetratech on the increased water change frequency (for the time being) and the floating plant.

I think we should not for get that your tank is only 12G and as such 4wpg are by far not the same as they would be in tetratechs' or my tank. Your 4wpg are less efficient (the smaller the tank the more wpg for the same effect). Unfortunately, I don't know how many wpg for how long would be right for this size.

About the Chaos Maximus / Minimus thing: Your teacher may have put a little twist in this. I remember going to a theater play with my school class that showed the last days of the Roman Empire. Its main character is Romulus Minimus (and there was a Rolumuls Maximus for real in Rome) and his complete incompetence allowed the Barbarians (which later were called the Germans ) to enter Rome and seize the empire (Western Roman Empire, that is).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think we should not for get that your tank is only 12G and as such 4wpg are by far not the same as they would be in tetratechs' or my tank.

Of course I agree 4wpg on a 12g is not the same as 4wpg on a bigger tank, but 4wpg of cf lighting on a 12 is very substantial and probably close to the equilivant of my 2.7wpg on my 72g. Remember he has no plant mass, nh3 and a very small biofilter.

My Scapes

Neat story about the name Chaos. Your latin teacher sounded nice - my freshman year latin teacher was an ex-navy seal, made us do jumping jacks and push ups for wrong unciation, or run laps around the building with bookbags full of books for failing to do homework. TONS of fun... Looking back on it, it seems cool, but at the time, not so. But nice to see someone else had to take latin, it was one of my favorite subjects.

Hornwort or hygro polysperma will help, theyre prime nutrient suckers. Will also help the comfort level of your one fish, cover is always good.

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Back in the saddle!

Remember he has no plant mass, nh3 and a very small biofilter.

True, you are right

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

my freshman year latin teacher was an ex-navy seal

My freshman latin teacher came back from martigras with a huge bag of beads and was reluctant to explain how she got them.

Chaos,

Oh, can I get an answer on the order of magintude for ppm of NH4?

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

My freshman latin teacher came back from martigras with a huge bag of beads and was reluctant to explain how she got them

Ammonia levels during cycling, if you can keep them well below 1ppm would be the best you can hope for, over 1-2 is when you get into trouble.

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Back in the saddle!

Things seem to be going OK in the tank. I got a second lemon, I was more worried about stress from being alone than anything else and both fish seem to be doing ok. It might help that between the diatoms and some floating plants it feels like there is more cover for them.

Im in the process of creating my diy co2 system now and will get that going by monday hopefully.

Hopefully water chem will be looking good when I check everything tomorrow.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

Good move on getting a second Lemon, that is - as I already mentioned - what I would have done. I just can't stand lonely fish .

And remember - you can make large water changes during cycling as long as you don't vacuum the substrate too much.
That should help to get any bad parameters lowered.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Cool,

Well its time to go shovel snow, I think we have about 8" and then break out the 4x4 and drive to lowes and get some silicone

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Hello all,

I have a few updates. Fish are seeming good. One of the two is certianly out compeeting the other for food, but they seem good.

I have set up DIY CO2 and hope that will go well. I set up 1 two liter with a gas seperator. It turns out that the acid buffer thing I had was a little problematic as it reduced the KH drasticly, so I added some baking soda to keep the CO2 from doing any damage if the bottle works well for me.

I did the chemistry and the results follow: (note that there was one 1/3 water change 2 days before the test water was collected)

pH - 7.0
KH - 2.0 (again I raised this after the test)
GH - 7.0
NH4 - 0ppm
NO2 - <0.20ppm
NO3 - ~0ppm

I have not dosed recently the NO3, I am still not used to doing that, but I guess algae used much of it. I will dose in a few min.

I thing that probably if water chem is looking good wed then I will pick up lemons number 3 and 4 on thursday.

Algae doesnt seem to be much more in control but I will try to get all my nutrients optimized for plant growth in the next few days as I now have CO2.

Chaos


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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

All sounds good and it looks like you are on your way.

Just remember that adding 2 fish will double your fish load, so frequent monitoring is a must, IMHO.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo, no need to be humble

Mabey I will go one at a time. I am keeping a log of my water chemistry seperatly on paper just as any good chemist should so I will be able to see things change if they do.

Also, it seems I am a reasonably good yeast farmer. The production rate seems to be about 5 2mm diamater bubbles per second ( I have the stone free floating in the water so I can see the production rate, I will move it into the back as previously discussed tonight or tomarrow)

I have been having trouble not overfeeding the fish ( discussed here:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/26919.1.htm?5#) and it was brought up in this other discussion that shrimp might be a good idea for my tank. I have been wondering about that because when the carpet is grown in it would be inappropirate to have corries or loaches to scavenge (i think) the ottos I expect to get would not help with extra food and so might be less versiatile than shrimps. It looks like ghost shrimp or one red kind would be good because they eat algae and leftover food. I have never had shrimp and dont know if they are easy to care for, how many would be needed to service my tank, or if they have a significantly different bioload than fishes do (same sort of 1" per gal type of approximation?)

any imput would be great, chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,
Shrimp would definitely be good for your tank, but make sure the water is stable and completely cycled before putting them in. I have a few ghosts, cherries and amano shrimp. By far the best at consuming algae are the amanos also called yamato. The cherries I haven't seen since I acquired them last week. The ghosts really aren't great algae eaters. Those two fish you have you should be feeding them like close to nothing. Most new aquarists have a tendency to overfeed. Fish are pretty good at getting the food I can't imagine they can't handle the current whle feeding them.

A tiny pinch that's all you need. You can even skip a day in the week to keep the tank cleaner.


My Scapes

Well, first thing is first: I would stick to cycling your tank before adding shrimp/ otos/ any other fauna.

Never had shrimp, but from the vast amount of reading ive done on them they will indeed eat left-over fish food. Shrimp were just being discussed in tetras log, talking about the life spans of different kinds. Ghost shrimp tend to be the shortest lived, apparently, and IMO the least attractive. if you can find cherry shrimp those are very nice and often breed in home aquaria. They also stay pretty small, with Ammano shrimp growing a bit larger and being less colorful. Either would do well in your tank once it matures, and any shrimp will prefer eating left over fish food to stringy algae so clean up wont be an issue.

The other option is, feed less maybe? I read through your other thread, and i admit that's one of the reason i don't like those all-in-one hoods, it leaves very little control and little access to the water surface. You may want to try slow sinking small fish food, New life spectrum makes something of this sort. As for one fish outcompeting the other, this is bound to happen so you have to overfeed a little... but while the tank is cycling you may want to try picking up the leftover food before it rots and causes more ammonia. I understand it may get trapped in the HC leaves, so this may not be an option.

So, long term yes for the shrimp, short term, just control feeding.

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Back in the saddle!

Chaos,

In case your interested here is a pic of one of my amano/yamato shrimps on the javamoss covered driftwood. He has grown to about the size of that pencilfish you see in the pic. As nowher said not as colorful as the cherries, but these guys seem to stay in the open more as opposed to the cherries that you never see.



Attached Image:


My Scapes

Hey all,

I must agree the cherries look cool and at least in my tank they wouldnt have anywhere to hide so I would see them i suppose.

I am going to probably try to do something like a feeding ring, possibly one which can control current near it so the food falls straight. I have been feeding 1 or 2 flakes at a time untill they stop eating but some of it gets stuck somewhere becaue of the current (its not the fish that cant deal with the current its the food which wont sink before the filter eats it or when it sinks it often gets stuck in the back right corner)

As for the one fish outcompeeting (this is assuming they are actually old enough to sex, which I think they are) the male is more dominant, the new one is female and has been getting progressivly more healthy since I got her. She was pretty dull at the store and has colored up well.

The diatoms grew explosivly today (I dosed NO3 last night) and the current on pulled up most of the HC that they were attached to. Ill take pics, this is getting frustrating, the only HC staying down is being heald in by stainless screws. You will see in pics.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

First suggestion - fish the diatoms out by hand, just as much as you can get a hold off.

Next - enough said about shrimps, the guys gave you all the info you need and the only thing for me to add is that I also think you should wait with adding them until all cycling is done as they do not like Ammonia.

Next - Current - don't no much about that, but the way you describe it almost makes me believe that the filter is oversized for the tank proportions.

Last - a statement you made before the shrimp question: 5 2mm diamater bubbles per second
That seems to be a lot and is pretty much my rate at the 125G tank. You have a ph and a KH kit, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club