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Chaos,
White thread:
Could be a bacteria or algae. Sometimes thread algae is very pale and doesn't show much color. Any chance of a pic.

Snails:
Everyone get's them. There's always some eggs on the plants. I always got them but for some reason they never got out of hand. Always a few around the tank. I wouldn't worry to much about it. If they get out of hand there are ways to control population.

Plant growth:
The HC isn't getting wait it needs at this point to take off. As Nowher said Co2 will make a big difference assuming other ferts are available. No3 should be between 10 and 20ppm. po4 1 to 2ppm. In a 12gallon that's probably about 1/8tsp no3 3/times weekly. A 1/10th of that for po4.

Algae/Otos:
Normal to have some green algae on rocks/glass as Nowher said. If you keep up on WC you shouldn't have a problem with otos. The rocks will give them a place to hide. I would wait a few more days and try adding a few. Don't try to make the tank look perfect from the getgo. What I mean is if you float some plants, Hydro, wisteria it will help absorb excess waste and also help the fish. Then when things stablize you could remove them. The biofilter IMHO is critical in the beginning and the plants will help with biofilteration.







My Scapes

Chaos,

Besides what the others mentioned already:

I think Bensaf once mentioned that HC is, compared to other carpet plants, a slow grower and needs some time to get established.

Pearling on the anubias is not a sign of growth, IMHO. If it is really a leaf that is pearling then there is an injury on it (no problem though), if it is a flower then this is normal.

Otos: Would wait a little and get at least 3. Depending what you mean by green algae (threads or spots) the Otos might not be of any help anyway, as they don't eat the spot version. When I set up my big tank quite a few leaves on my Anubias got the green spots. They never went away and when the plant started to put out a few new leaves I bagan to cut off the heavily spotted leaves. Now, that the tank is established, no new spots are developing.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

HC is favored by many as a carpet because it is such a slow grower. It takes some time to get established.

Anubias are indestructible and need no time to adjust. You could grow them in a closet

Algae is normal at start up, especially with no Co2 going in.

Keep on top of it and remove , clean glass etc as often as possible. It doesn't like to harassed.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

nice looking planted tank you have chaos



is your anubias planted into the substate? (flourite)

they need their roots etc out in open with good water flow around them or they will rot.

is they are rotting it could be causing problems that the algae love.

just an idea.
keep up the good work
Karl

www.blooming-brilliant.co.uk

shekoi,

Anubias don't really need all their roots in the open. Only the rhizome cannot be buried, not even slightly. I have all my Anubias in the substrate, with the rhizome elevated above.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey all, I have a sick fish

Ive never had any luck helping fish get better so any advice would be great.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/26660.1.htm?0#

Thanks.

Oh, btw current tank conditions are

pH 7.6 (im trying to slowly lower this but it wont seem to move)
NH4 - 0.25ppm
NO2 - 2 ppm
NO3 - 5 ppm
Temp, 78*F


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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

I saw your hospital entry. I am no fungus expert, but I guess a treatment with Melafix and Primafix can't harm (if it doesn't get better soon).

On to another question:

pH 7.6 (im trying to slowly lower this but it wont seem to move)

How do you do that? And what is your GH/KH?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

GH- 7 german degrees
KH- 4 german degrees

I got what is supposed to be an accidic pH buffer. It doesnt seem like it is really working. I am slowly adding it and the pH isnt changing.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

I wouldn't bother with any of those buffer products. Unncessary and it will throw off your numbers when you test.

At a kh of 4 and a ph of 7.6 you have basically no co2.
As mentioned the co2 addition will lower ph considerably. You can add some peat media to the filter. It might give the water a slightly brown tint to it, but it will lower your ph naturally until you get the co2 going.

My Scapes

7.6 is nothing, there's really no reason to mess with it, as tetra said. CO2 will do that for you, that's the way you want to bump it down.

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Back in the saddle!

Plus, as you change the water, the KH and GH will go back to what they were as will the pH. You need to get lots of peat to really make any effect and I have found that adding it to the water and letting it sit for a week help, then the water going in is already conditioned and has lower KH, GH, and pH. If you want to go this route I'll be happy to explain what I have found to work for me.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hello all,

The one fish who was sick got worse fast and died a few hours ago. I would like advice about when to get the remaining lemon (who seems ok) a tank mate.

Also, the various algaes which are in the tank are big enough that I will be able to photograph them in the morning. The anubias are rather covered in various things. There are 4 varieties in the tank I can see and only one is somthing the ottos would munch on. Anyway pictures will help the most.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I would wait to be sure the remaining one doesn't also get sick. If it was a fungal fin rot then there may be spores left, introducing any new fish may cause the tanks parameters to change enough to bring on a new bout. Wait for a few water changes, test the tank and let it complete it's cycle (you still had ammonia right?). Then I would suggest to let the tank be. The remaining medicine may catch whatever is in the tank, allow the cycle to complete then do a water change and add activated charcoal to the filter to remove the medicine, you don't want to create a resistant form of fungus then you'll never get it out.
The same goes if it was bacterial, you want to be sure to get it all and not make a super-bacter that can withstand treatment.
I went over your thread again and the tank is not finished the cycle, so I will say no water change until the nitrites are all gone oryour remaining fish begin to show signs of illness. I may be wrong here but I think it's best to let the tank finish cycling before adding any more fish. About what to do with the meds, take out or leave in I'm just not sure.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Also, the various algaes which are in the tank are big enough that I will be able to photograph them in the morning.

Chaos,
Some algae is inevitable in a new setup, but the things that will minimize them are:

1. Using carbon for the first few weeks
2. Seeding the filter with an established tank's gravel, bioballs, etc.
3. Filling it with plants.

That said, depending upon the intensity of your lights, amount of NH3 and whether you did any of the above will dictate how bad your alage gets.

My Scapes

amount of NH3

Tiny amounts of this will give you the dreaded GW Moniter closely...

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Back in the saddle!

I do have to say, it seems odd that the fish's condition would have deteriorated so rapidly. In your other post you initially said that it had been fine, then suddenly dropped dead after a day of losing color. I would think that the stress of the infection combined with the cycling pollutants (you quoted ammonia and nitrite being present) killed the fish. I know it's just conjecture, but that is what I think happened.

No need to add more fish until you're through with the cycle. If you want to remove the meds without doing a water change, just add some activated carbon in your filter.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Sorry to hear that Chaos

I am torn between recommending the addition of a new tetra and telling you to wait. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I know I would add one.

I think it has been mentioned above, it might be a good idea to add some floating plants to increase the plant mass while the "real" plants get established.

Sorry again,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey all,

I have new pictures, sorry they are so large but I wanted to make sure you could clearly see the algae and the anubias. Its hard to see if the anubias are still ok under all that algae.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/12000/DSCF0025.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/12000/DSCF0026.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/12000/DSCF0027.JPG

I checked and the fish store does have more lemons. I am really on the fence about weather the fish will be so stressed it will get sick if it is alone. Many of you mentioned meds, the thing was there wernt any. I noticed the fungus in the afternoon and the info I got back in the 'hospital tank' thread said this was probably somthing which had to do with stress from water quality and that a water change was the most important action. I believe it also indicated that this was an external thing for the fish. When I got home yesterday almost all of the fish's color was gone and it had red spots visable inside its body (internal bleeding?) by midnight the fish was dead and the initally white fuz was brown and it looked a little like the stomach might have been an open wound at the time of death.

So there was no meds because the suggestion was that it was external and it seemed to match the disease discribed because the fish was acting normaly though it had the fuzz.

The second fish is being more active again, but it has lost a little color, though not a lot, and may have a little bit of white on one of its fins. So mabey I will add another to comfort it but only if it is looking ok tomarrow afternoon.


On the algae side of things, That long brown fuzz has doubled in lenght each of the last 3 days. The stuff which looks like brown dirt on the leaves (diatoms it was suggested) are not growing a lot. The green thread and the normal green algae are spreeding too. to answer some questions

1 I am using cabon,
2 I seeded the filter with biospira only (algaes probably came with the fish)
3. the plants in the tank are slow growers, I think wiesteria was suggested to float in the tank because it was a quick grower?
4 the tank is 4watts per gallon. tell me if it makes sense to run at half power for the moment.
5 CO2 will begin this weekend hopefully

BTW with the algae i am not worried about how it looks at the moment, I am worried about it choking out the real plants. I keep being told that the anubias would survive arctic winter but Im a nervous because they ended up being a bit of an investment

Tiny amounts of this will give you the dreaded GW Moniter closely...

Sorry, GW?


Wow, lots today, Thanks so much for the help in my attempt to conquer the CHAOS in my tank!

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

This is a diatom bloom, very common in a new tank. They live of silica found in glass and substrate.

Very harmless to fish and plants, actually fry love it as food. Just take as much out by hand as you can when you have some time and during maintenance.

Glad it is this kind, not much to worry here. Your plants will be ok.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

GW=green water, a green algae bloom. makes the water look like pea soup...

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Back in the saddle!

Well I see why you go by the name of Chaos.

Listen I appreciate the fact that your using carbon and you used a bio starter, but with that plant mass you can not hold back algae wit 4wpg and no mature biofilter. When I mean seed with gravel I'm talking about taking the gunk and gravel from an established tank and either putting a sock full of it in your filter or under the gravel itself.

If I was you I would do this:

1. Clean off as much as you can.
1. Change 50% of the water every other day.
3. Add a &^%*% of floating plants.
4. Use 2wpg most of the day maybe 4 for an hour if you think the HC needs it.

With 4wpg and your nh3 at .25 your in Chaos!


My Scapes

hmm, I am forgetting my orders of magnitude.

I know any NH4 is bad, but is it 0.2 which is getting to be very bad, or is it 2.0ppm. I know both are bad, but one is close to the expected maximum during cycling.

If 0.2 is very bad then I will let the NH4 drop to zero before adding a second fish.

Very harmless to fish and plants

hope you dont blame me for being cautius with every new orginism that I dont recognize. I wish I had a microscope around, ill bet the diatoms look cool.

Chaos

( I got the name from latin class in middle school [ chaos was the first of the roman gods, he existed befor any of the others], the maximus came when another guy in the class, but a year ahead [both year 2 and 3 were in one period] started annoying the teacher so she promoted me to chaos maximus, he became chaos minimus)

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I am with tetratech on the increased water change frequency (for the time being) and the floating plant.

I think we should not for get that your tank is only 12G and as such 4wpg are by far not the same as they would be in tetratechs' or my tank. Your 4wpg are less efficient (the smaller the tank the more wpg for the same effect). Unfortunately, I don't know how many wpg for how long would be right for this size.

About the Chaos Maximus / Minimus thing: Your teacher may have put a little twist in this. I remember going to a theater play with my school class that showed the last days of the Roman Empire. Its main character is Romulus Minimus (and there was a Rolumuls Maximus for real in Rome) and his complete incompetence allowed the Barbarians (which later were called the Germans ) to enter Rome and seize the empire (Western Roman Empire, that is).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think we should not for get that your tank is only 12G and as such 4wpg are by far not the same as they would be in tetratechs' or my tank.

Of course I agree 4wpg on a 12g is not the same as 4wpg on a bigger tank, but 4wpg of cf lighting on a 12 is very substantial and probably close to the equilivant of my 2.7wpg on my 72g. Remember he has no plant mass, nh3 and a very small biofilter.

My Scapes

Neat story about the name Chaos. Your latin teacher sounded nice - my freshman year latin teacher was an ex-navy seal, made us do jumping jacks and push ups for wrong unciation, or run laps around the building with bookbags full of books for failing to do homework. TONS of fun... Looking back on it, it seems cool, but at the time, not so. But nice to see someone else had to take latin, it was one of my favorite subjects.

Hornwort or hygro polysperma will help, theyre prime nutrient suckers. Will also help the comfort level of your one fish, cover is always good.

---

Back in the saddle!

Remember he has no plant mass, nh3 and a very small biofilter.

True, you are right

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

my freshman year latin teacher was an ex-navy seal

My freshman latin teacher came back from martigras with a huge bag of beads and was reluctant to explain how she got them.

Chaos,

Oh, can I get an answer on the order of magintude for ppm of NH4?

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

My freshman latin teacher came back from martigras with a huge bag of beads and was reluctant to explain how she got them

Ammonia levels during cycling, if you can keep them well below 1ppm would be the best you can hope for, over 1-2 is when you get into trouble.

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Back in the saddle!

Things seem to be going OK in the tank. I got a second lemon, I was more worried about stress from being alone than anything else and both fish seem to be doing ok. It might help that between the diatoms and some floating plants it feels like there is more cover for them.

Im in the process of creating my diy co2 system now and will get that going by monday hopefully.

Hopefully water chem will be looking good when I check everything tomorrow.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

Good move on getting a second Lemon, that is - as I already mentioned - what I would have done. I just can't stand lonely fish .

And remember - you can make large water changes during cycling as long as you don't vacuum the substrate too much.
That should help to get any bad parameters lowered.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Cool,

Well its time to go shovel snow, I think we have about 8" and then break out the 4x4 and drive to lowes and get some silicone

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Hello all,

I have a few updates. Fish are seeming good. One of the two is certianly out compeeting the other for food, but they seem good.

I have set up DIY CO2 and hope that will go well. I set up 1 two liter with a gas seperator. It turns out that the acid buffer thing I had was a little problematic as it reduced the KH drasticly, so I added some baking soda to keep the CO2 from doing any damage if the bottle works well for me.

I did the chemistry and the results follow: (note that there was one 1/3 water change 2 days before the test water was collected)

pH - 7.0
KH - 2.0 (again I raised this after the test)
GH - 7.0
NH4 - 0ppm
NO2 - <0.20ppm
NO3 - ~0ppm

I have not dosed recently the NO3, I am still not used to doing that, but I guess algae used much of it. I will dose in a few min.

I thing that probably if water chem is looking good wed then I will pick up lemons number 3 and 4 on thursday.

Algae doesnt seem to be much more in control but I will try to get all my nutrients optimized for plant growth in the next few days as I now have CO2.

Chaos


__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

All sounds good and it looks like you are on your way.

Just remember that adding 2 fish will double your fish load, so frequent monitoring is a must, IMHO.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo, no need to be humble

Mabey I will go one at a time. I am keeping a log of my water chemistry seperatly on paper just as any good chemist should so I will be able to see things change if they do.

Also, it seems I am a reasonably good yeast farmer. The production rate seems to be about 5 2mm diamater bubbles per second ( I have the stone free floating in the water so I can see the production rate, I will move it into the back as previously discussed tonight or tomarrow)

I have been having trouble not overfeeding the fish ( discussed here:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/26919.1.htm?5#) and it was brought up in this other discussion that shrimp might be a good idea for my tank. I have been wondering about that because when the carpet is grown in it would be inappropirate to have corries or loaches to scavenge (i think) the ottos I expect to get would not help with extra food and so might be less versiatile than shrimps. It looks like ghost shrimp or one red kind would be good because they eat algae and leftover food. I have never had shrimp and dont know if they are easy to care for, how many would be needed to service my tank, or if they have a significantly different bioload than fishes do (same sort of 1" per gal type of approximation?)

any imput would be great, chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,
Shrimp would definitely be good for your tank, but make sure the water is stable and completely cycled before putting them in. I have a few ghosts, cherries and amano shrimp. By far the best at consuming algae are the amanos also called yamato. The cherries I haven't seen since I acquired them last week. The ghosts really aren't great algae eaters. Those two fish you have you should be feeding them like close to nothing. Most new aquarists have a tendency to overfeed. Fish are pretty good at getting the food I can't imagine they can't handle the current whle feeding them.

A tiny pinch that's all you need. You can even skip a day in the week to keep the tank cleaner.


My Scapes

Well, first thing is first: I would stick to cycling your tank before adding shrimp/ otos/ any other fauna.

Never had shrimp, but from the vast amount of reading ive done on them they will indeed eat left-over fish food. Shrimp were just being discussed in tetras log, talking about the life spans of different kinds. Ghost shrimp tend to be the shortest lived, apparently, and IMO the least attractive. if you can find cherry shrimp those are very nice and often breed in home aquaria. They also stay pretty small, with Ammano shrimp growing a bit larger and being less colorful. Either would do well in your tank once it matures, and any shrimp will prefer eating left over fish food to stringy algae so clean up wont be an issue.

The other option is, feed less maybe? I read through your other thread, and i admit that's one of the reason i don't like those all-in-one hoods, it leaves very little control and little access to the water surface. You may want to try slow sinking small fish food, New life spectrum makes something of this sort. As for one fish outcompeting the other, this is bound to happen so you have to overfeed a little... but while the tank is cycling you may want to try picking up the leftover food before it rots and causes more ammonia. I understand it may get trapped in the HC leaves, so this may not be an option.

So, long term yes for the shrimp, short term, just control feeding.

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Back in the saddle!

Chaos,

In case your interested here is a pic of one of my amano/yamato shrimps on the javamoss covered driftwood. He has grown to about the size of that pencilfish you see in the pic. As nowher said not as colorful as the cherries, but these guys seem to stay in the open more as opposed to the cherries that you never see.



Attached Image:


My Scapes

Hey all,

I must agree the cherries look cool and at least in my tank they wouldnt have anywhere to hide so I would see them i suppose.

I am going to probably try to do something like a feeding ring, possibly one which can control current near it so the food falls straight. I have been feeding 1 or 2 flakes at a time untill they stop eating but some of it gets stuck somewhere becaue of the current (its not the fish that cant deal with the current its the food which wont sink before the filter eats it or when it sinks it often gets stuck in the back right corner)

As for the one fish outcompeeting (this is assuming they are actually old enough to sex, which I think they are) the male is more dominant, the new one is female and has been getting progressivly more healthy since I got her. She was pretty dull at the store and has colored up well.

The diatoms grew explosivly today (I dosed NO3 last night) and the current on pulled up most of the HC that they were attached to. Ill take pics, this is getting frustrating, the only HC staying down is being heald in by stainless screws. You will see in pics.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

First suggestion - fish the diatoms out by hand, just as much as you can get a hold off.

Next - enough said about shrimps, the guys gave you all the info you need and the only thing for me to add is that I also think you should wait with adding them until all cycling is done as they do not like Ammonia.

Next - Current - don't no much about that, but the way you describe it almost makes me believe that the filter is oversized for the tank proportions.

Last - a statement you made before the shrimp question: 5 2mm diamater bubbles per second
That seems to be a lot and is pretty much my rate at the 125G tank. You have a ph and a KH kit, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I do have the test kits and am aware that this could get out of hand. I will be watching it to see where I am tonight. I bumped up KH allready because it was low and the bubles are floating free and not in a co2 reactor yet so im not concerned about the co2 level getting too high.

As for the filter, i think they wanted to provide enough filtration to deal with salt water. They market this as a good nemo tank, sand, a pice of live rock an anemone and nemo are pictured in a few of their promo pics.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

5 2mm diamater bubbles per second

You must be a VERY good chemist, because I never got that type of bubble rate when I was using yeast and I fooled around with alot of different combinations of ingredients.
The main problem with that production is that it will not sustain itself for more tha probably a week.

i think they wanted to provide enough filtration to deal with salt water

That's exactly correct. To keep it astetically pleasing for a nano reef and not having to add powerheads etc they made the filter really strong to provide anemone and other sea animals what they need.


My Scapes

Im not sure I did anything particularly well, I suppose Im good at mixing sugar and water, but Im no biologist and have no traning which would help me farm yeast. The only less standard thing I know I did was add some baking soda to buffer the system, this may be a source for some of the co2 if the yeast produce much acid. ( I saw this recomended somewhere)

My dad is an electrical engineer and Im going to ask him about doing something to bring the powerhead from 100 gal per hour to mabey 50, which should still fulfill my neads,

for the diatoms, I am removing them often, they like the tank though. with almost all of my HC floating should I worry about replanting it at the moment, it never really stuck well. I suppose I could get more screws.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

This Log, Page 2:

About the plant you selected, often simply referred to as HC:
Very nice and the smallest foreground plant available that forms a carpet. I don't know how much hair you have on your head, but if there is any it will for sure be a little less after you planted these dwarfs.

Can't say I didn't warn you

It might be that your substrate is not fine enough to keep it anchored, but that is just a guess on my end.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Chaos,

I don't know the exact layout of your filter, but if you shove in alot of filter media, like a thick floss type you should be able to slow down the flow somewhat.


My Scapes

I think i said before, i still have some hair to spare, so that is good.

You might be right about the substrate not being fine enough, because the roots are all tangled and its not so much planting as trying to hope they will stay.

BTW, with the diatoms, will they slow up when silicate runs low, or will they continue on without it?


Im not sure about floss, but the water is allready traveling through about 10 inches of sponge, so it might not help.

Ill figure something out.



__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Diatoms will stop when they run out of silica.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Just an idea of the HC - is it possible to tie each section onto a small stone or something with a bit of green thread? The idea being that the stone will keep it down long enough for the plant to start to grow and spread... dunno, just an idea...

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Back in the saddle!

Man,

I wanna see pictures of the attempt to tie these tiny plants to a tiny rock .

And a closeup of Chaos's hair before and after

Ingo

Sorry, I had to say it

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

A couple of possible solutions.

1. You could add a layer of sand or onyx black sand over the existing gravel. You have a small footprint so you won't need much. The weight of the smaller grain will help anchor the plants. Eventually the smaller sand pieces will move below your existing substrate but by then the HC should have rooted.

or

2. You might be able to get a plastic grid with a small enough mesh and push the HC plants thru the holes and put the mesh under a layer of your existing gravel.



My Scapes

I wanna see pictures of the attempt to tie these tiny plants to a tiny rock

I thought they came in clumps? Pardon me, I've never held them in my hand before, I'm just going by appearances in his photos

---

Back in the saddle!

I was wondering if I was having more than a normal ammount of algae trouble (didnt have this trouble in my old tanks but they were mabey 1wat per gallon and no ferts) and I saw bensaf wrote the following in LittleFish's tread a few days after he began. Makes me feel better thanks bensaf!

Forget the algae, ignore it, it isn't there, you dreamt it, whatever works for you.
Focus on the plants , keep looking after the plants.

any way new pictures of the war zone, ahem... the algae free tank, tonight.

Chaos



__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Thanks for posting that so I don't have to wade back through Ingo's log, it will become my new mantra as I meditate before my 10g tank. All that lovely green, blue, black and even brown!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

no kidding,

Everything I try to do gives me at least alittle trouble. For example I did some chemistry, and I got the following:

KH - back at 6 thanks to baking soda
pH - 6.6-6.8 therefor
CO2 approx 45ppm AHHH!!!

Fish dont seem unhappy though. I have my airstone off during the day, I can set it so it is on intermitantly during the day mabey that will help, or mabey it will just mean lots of pH fluxuations during the day, which wouldnt be great. I am just letting the bubbles go free now, so I guess my production really is high.

Chaos



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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

As long as the fish aren't gasping at the surface it should be fine. pH shouldn't fluctuate too much during the day once the CO2 settles in, I think there will be some fluctuation during the night, but this will happen with or without CO2, I measured for myself and if the fish handle that nightly swing down and the daily swing back up then CO2 shouldn't bother them too much. Just keep an eye on the KH and you'll be fine. (I say this with the confidence of someone who is seriously hoping it will be this way for my own tank).
What's the KH out of the tap? If it's high to begin with then you won't need baking soda, but if it's low to begin with then you will have to fiddle until you figure out how much will stabilize it.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

and the bubles are floating free and not in a co2 reactor yet so im not concerned about the co2 level getting too high.

This has me way confused

If you are saying the co2 line is just stuck in the water and the gas bubbles are coming directly out and floating to the top , they shouldn't be dissolving enough. The bigger the bubble, the harder to dissolve. There needs to be something to either keep the bubbles in contact with the water (reactor) or grind the bubbles tiny enough to dissolve on their way to the surface (difussion).

Yet you say co2 is 45ppm

Something's not making sense. Am I missing something on the co2 set up? Are the pH /KH readings correct ?

The diatoms will disappear in time. In the meantime keep hassling it, keep the glass clear, remove what you can. By removing the diatoms you are also removing the silicate they consumed.

Never tried HC but I do find the bigger the gravel the harder for tiny plants to stay rooted. Smaller sandlike grains are much easier. Tetras idea of sand may be the best solution.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yet you say co2 is 45ppm

Yeah, i know, Ill repeat the tests tomorrow and see what I get. It doesnt make sense, though I am getting like 5 bubbles per second. Mabey, just mabey, this has to do with that acid buffer stuff I put in before. I have done two water changes since then and it seemed like it might have still been messing with the water. That would explain some of this, though I did add baking soda. I dont know, we shall see what tests show tomorrow.

Chaos

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though I am getting like 5 bubbles per second

Doesn't matter,if those bubbles are going straight up to the surface. You may as well stick the co2 line out the window. If no reactor, at least stick the Co2 tube into your filter intake to mix the gas with the water.

Mabey, just mabey, this has to do with that acid buffer stuff I put in before.

More then maybe. Once you use buffers using the KH/pH table for calculating Co2 goes out the window. Check the information at the same place you downloaded the table.
Another reason to avoid adding any kind of buffer , even baking soda unless absolutely neccessary.
Most taps have sufficient KH, pH can be dialed in with Co2.No reason for buffers.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Im not going to use the buffer. I decided that before, but it seems to still have an effect. (I fell for saleman's tricks b/c I was worried about the pH)

anyway, should I set it up the reactor? It may still be a few water changes before I can get accurate results.

Chaos


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should I set it up the reactor

You have a reactor? What kind of a reactor is it?

And yes, I went through all the common algae types that are out there

When I look back at the old pictures in my log I realize how little my current algae issues are now compared to then.

luvmykrib

so I don't have to wade back through Ingo's log

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey,

not an actual reactor. It is just placing the co2 line in the sponge in the back. This will trap the co2 and give it plent of contact with the water that is forced though the sponge.

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I think it would be worth a try, Chaos.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Is yours a DIY CO2 set-up? Isn't the reactor the canister? And the diffuser is how the gas exchange happens.

How big is your bottle for this set-up, I am now thinking of doing CO2 on my 10g, if I do I will be using the bottle etc from the Hagen kit and rigging up something else for the 25g.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Isn't the reactor the canister? And the diffuser is how the gas exchange happens.

Nope. A reactor is a method of dissolving the gas into the water usually in a closed container and driven by a powerhead or filter outlet.

Diffusers break the bubbles up into tiny size and disperse into the tank where the bubbles dissolve.

I assume you mean because there is a chemical reaction between the sugar yeast etc in the bottle that creates the Co2. But the bottle itself is not what we refer to when we talk about reactors.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thank-You for clearing that up for me!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hey all,

Some good some bad.

Some good

First, CO2 - there are bubbles on my HC and on the nutrient absorber floater plant. Pearling, wahoo!!!! I can see new bubles floating up now. Thats one thing going well.

Second, the diatoms might have slowed down their growth a bit and with the beginning of observable photosynthesis the HC could begin to establish itself.

Some bad

Third, I moved on up with the number of fish. Adding 2 more, but not doubling the biomass of the fish because the two are mabey 5 months old and only .75" long. They seem good, but, the smallest one has 1 spot on its right side. Its hard to say for sure, but ich crossed my mind of course. Ive never had good expirence with ich before but am I correct that there is a real protacol for actually treating this? I saw Luvmykrib is seeing the same thing and she said to raise the tank temp and then there is meds. Since I am not sure yet, I can raise the temp now. But if I dose with the meds do I need to remove the plants? I can look this stuff up, the real question is weather I should worry about the 1 spot

Thanks, Chaos

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One spot may quickly become many and then it will be very hard to treat, which is why with one spot each on two fish I am treating. Whether the meds will work until the parasite is free-swimming is a question. I have the Jungle Labs Ich Guard which says there is no need to raise the temp. Knowing jungle labs reliability, I am still raising the temp and treating so the parasites should die as they become free-swimming. The white spot is a cyst under the skin, when the spot disappears the parasite has 'hatched' and is looking for a new host, that is when the meds can clear it out and that is when the other fish can catch it if they don't already have it. Most fish carry it in an asymptomatic form, it doesn't show up until the fish is stressed, temp drops or other drastic water chemistry change, they are then susecptible to other secondary infections and that is what usually kills them. Because we have plants the usual cheap way to treat ich (raise the temp and add salt) may not be a good idea, salt and plants don't go together well. I do not know about the plants and the ich guard but I don't want more fish deaths right now. A QT tank is really looking good, but I feel the whole tank is suspect anyway and the plants may as well get used to it!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Ok, ill look at treatment stuff.

I really dont want to kill my plants though and they were much harder to come by than the fish. If anyone has expirence with fish and an ich med I would be grateful. Btw, luvmykrib I wanted to be clear, you do or do not trust that company?

I would prefer a QT but it would be as big as my main tank.

Thanks, Chaos

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Chaos,

I would suggest to do nothing while you see only a very limited number of spots overall. Let's say it really is Ich, for the argument sake. When the Ich falls off the fish it will sink to the substrate and multiply. Then it will get back into the water column and try to find another fish and start over again. A very limited number of Ich parasites (or whatever it is) might not find a new host, as it has only a limited life span, or the fish might have gotten less stressed and can fend off the parasite.

I would start treatment when you see one or two spots on each fish, or with quite a few. I twice treated for Ich with a medicine called Quick Cure. I used a quarter dosage (half because of tetras, and another half because of plants) every other day, with 30% water changes on the days in between, for 2 weeks straight. During that time you will have to remove the Activated Carbon, if you use any. I haven't lost a fish directly to Ich during the two treatments and the plants turned out fine.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

From the Manual of Fish Health by Dr. Chris Andrews, Adrian Exell and Dr. Neville Carrington. Each cyst will produce hundreds of 'swarmers', that's a few too many for my taste.

Chaos, I don't know howmuch I trust this company, some of the products work really well the way they are said to and some are not as good or don't live up to the claims, the fungus medicine worked for me though and this is all I have on hand. So I am playing it safe by raising the temp to be sure the medicine can get the 'swarmers' in their free-swimming phase just in case the medicine is not effective against the encysted phase.

There are other medicines out there that work and others have used and it would be great to hear from people who have had experience with them and this one. Then you will have some other info to base your decision on, I am not saying you need to do what I'm doing, I'm letting you know what my approach to this is at this time.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hey,

thanks for your advice both of you. That first spot is gone and I see a different one now, hmmm. I will do some reading and decide tomorrow.

I have new pics. I did a water change, pulled out 90% of the diatoms and 'screwed' in the HC which had all become dislodged. I have included a picture of my hair for the record. I am more optamistic now than before about things in the tank. If you guys can look critically at the anubias and see if there is anything you might see that I dont I would appreciate it. It seems that the anubias is looking good under the stuff, im just being cautious. Hopefully I will see the peraling really obviously tomorrow now that the HC is held down.



Thanks all , Chaos

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Hey,

I decided I like you all enough to spend some money. Ta-daaaaaa



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Anubias

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Anubias coverd in diatoms and things

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My new lemons

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My hair before, for the record

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just for you LF

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Chaos,



And



Congrats on the premium membership.

The picture of the HC and the screws is amazing. I would say that you somehow should try to patent this method.

Here is an advertisement on an Aquatic Plant Retailer Website:

"Our HC is rather expensive, but it comes with hardware and a free screwdriver"

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey,

the screws do seem to work well. Actually screwing them into the HC is very gentle and I can tell Im not doing much damage if any. Its also good that it only cost about 3 dollars for the 20 or so stainless screws I needed.

Chaos

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Look at you a premium member! Congrats, I haven't made the plunge yet, but I probably should, I'm addicted to this place!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hey,

The smallest of my fish seems to actually be ok. I might have been seeing things.

Chaos

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Hello,

Good News! (and its not about car insurance)

The diatoms have stopped growing. Im going to try to do a through removal of them tomorrow or thursday. Mabey, just mabey thing are starting to go my way.

Chaos

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Great News, you may have gotten over the hump! I believe planted tanks go through these kind of hiccups when they are getting started.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hello all,

Turns out I wasnt over the hump, though the plants, are growing. Well, some at least. The HC seems more robust (it was really squshy before) and OH the pearling My first bottle of CO2 is still going strong, so I am happy about that.

The fish seem to be doing well, though I was worried about the littlest one for a while. (It had a fillament trailing out of its anus for a few days. The fillament was very thin and got longer for a few days. It is gone now and my guess is it swallowed a piece of lint or somthing. Though this may be the sign of some parasite I dont know of, but I am guessing its fine)

So pictures today are the before and after on today's cleanup and a few of the fish. The smaller ones It should be noted have increased in size mabey 3-5mm since I have gotten them and are now much harder to distinguish from the 'parents' in my faimly of four.

Chaos

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Before Front

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The new plant has grown significantly. All the vertical growths are new. I dont remember what kind of plant this is. It is here obstensibly for help with nutrient absoption.

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Before Right.

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Before cleaning on the left

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Before Left

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This is a close up of the new plant if anyone wants to Identify it.

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There are other pictures on the previous page.

After the cleaning. Much better

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White things growing on the anubias. These are roots? There are some similar things on one of the HCs.

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Pearls!

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The family of four

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Last pic of lemons

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The plant in question is anacharis, aka elodea, aka egeria densa. Haven't had a chance to read your thread since the beginning, but were those brownish, thread-like algae there since the start?

-P

Yup, they were the first to show up. I have been told they are diatoms and so not really algae.

Choas

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ChaosMaximus,

I'm sorry to tell you that those threadlike things are definately not diatoms, but instead look very much like Staghorn algae to me . Diatoms form a sort of muddy film over your plants , wood and substrate. Staghorn generally indicate an imbalance of your phosphate levels. What is your water changing rythm at the moment, because something is definately not right in your tank right now.

Holy Algae Heavens

Chaos, I had no idea that you have sooo much algae in there. You always showed us some close-ups, or I may have missed some of the full tank shots in this stage, but you are loaded with all kinds of algae, the only one missing seems to be BGA.

If I, or one of us has caused you to believe that the algae in the second picture from the top would be diatoms, then I am sorry. Dr. - we were referring to the major browinsh gunk as diatoms (which I still believe they are). And yeah, that one is Staghorn.

Oh, btw, upibabu is right about the Egeria, and the white things growing out of the Anubias are roots.

What surprises me is how you can have so many diatoms, that should be over by now. I am wondering where the food source for them is. What kind of rocks are this (just a wild guess, I don't really believe they contain silica)? It is just interesting that the gravel seems to be all clear while the rocks are covered in green algae.

Did you ever clean the back and side glass?

If you have test kits then use them and let us know what the reading are. I am with the Dr. as it really seems like something is way out of sink. I currently tend to blame phosphates for my algae, but don't put any emphasis on that as I may be off.

Awayting further info,

Ingo

EDIT: Unfortunately, even an Excel treatment (which sometimes helps with algae) is not advisable as it would kill off the Egeria as well.

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey all,

LF no BBA either

This is enlighening. I had though both brown things were different diatoms . Knowing this is algae is good though so I can be proactive about it. Ill try to answer all the questions.

I got the rocks at a wholesaler for decorative outside rock (the ammount I needed was so small compared to their orders it was all free which is nice). So I have no idea what the rock is made of. If they had silicate I would immagine the diatoms would have begun growing on the rocks before on the anubias? just a thought. I can guarentee that I am not crushing up sand to feed to the diatoms though.

My water change regimine, since NH4 settled down has been driven by cleaning out that staghorn. Because I thought these were diatoms I havent been paying too much attention to nutrients (because silicate would run out and they would stop growing perminantly). I have the diy co2 and some generic fert which is NO3 source mostly. I suppose its time to buy a PO4 test kit. (Dr. do you think PO4 is out of balance as in too high or too low? because I dont think I am adding any at all with the fert I have).

I have cleaned the standard green algae and the green thread algae off the front and sides of the tank before, though not yesterday. These dont grow as well as the staghorn does. Luckily the staghorn doesnt seem to be keeping the HC from beginning to get healthy.

I will get a complete set of readings tonight if possible. ( I will get a PO4 kit today so you guys can see that number) I will bet my water chem is a mess, because I was expecting the brown stuff to stop by itself.

Thanks, Chaos

Edit: While looking for info on this I am again reminded how much plagarism there is on the net. It seems very prevalent with aquairum stuff though.

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Chaos,

Wow, that looks like a scene out of a Tim Burton movie.
You might have traumatized my 7 year old who was walking by my computer when I was viewing your pics. I think he'll get over it.

I'm most interested in:

What is your current lighting schedule
How much are you feeding your fish
What is your complete fert schedule



My Scapes

Tetra,

sorry about your kid

Lighting is on a timer. All 48watts (7600k) from noon till 9pm. Its shifted back in the day so I can see the fish when I get home. I dont have a way to do partial lighting during part of the day, though I can run at half wattage.

I feed the fish what they can eat in 60-90 seconds. On this note, I have started just turning off the filter and feeding them like that. They react to the filter going off knowing its time to eat (they move to the surface immideatly now). There is no leftover food now.

Ferts schedule is somewhat inaccurate. I add some every few days, but nothing is so regimented it could be called a schedule. Ill pull information off the lable for you guys so you know what I allready have. I suppose I am fulfilling your signatures advice to the extreem.

Chaos

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Lighting is on a timer. All 48watts (7600k) from noon till 9pm. Its shifted back in the day so I can see the fish when I get home. I dont have a way to do partial lighting during part of the day, though I can run at half wattage.

IMO it can't be done. You can't have 4wpg with that plant mass and a small biofilter.

I feed the fish what they can eat in 60-90 seconds

Not saying this is a big issue, but would certainly add to the problem. Most people tend to overfeed their fish, making sure everyone get's some, even when you think your feeding alittle.

Ferts schedule is somewhat inaccurate

You need to give them everything and get on a regular schedule.

With all that being said, even if you're giving the plants everything they need, I don't think you can handle 4wpg even with that anacharis in there. You need to work backwards. Fill up the whole tank with more anacharis, wisteria, whatever. Plant it, float some and then when your tank seems to have reached a good point, start taking the anacharis out stem by stem, by than the hc and the anubias should be growing better and your biofilter will be healthier.

I'm surprised the nano tank doesn't have a plug for each light so you could switch one off for most of the day.

BTW - Could we have an update on the hair situation

My Scapes

Tetra, after reading some stuff in your log I was thinking the same thing about chaos' tank. It seems vital to stuff the tank from the get go. I've been reading different sites about starting up planted tanks, and they always so to start with a bunch of floating plant mass in addition to the ones you eventually want the tank to showcase.

All of those tanks in the style chaos is going for probably started out with lots of floaters creating a balance before gradually reducing them, as you said. The 4WPG is indeed too much for that plant mass. Anubias fert uptake is like nothing. The HC isn't established yet, it's not taking up that much either. No way they're using that light, it's just feeding the algae.

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Back in the saddle!

I'm surprised the nano tank doesn't have a plug for each light so you could switch one off for most of the day.

It does, it just is that the spot where I can unplug one light is before the balast. (if that doesnt make sense there are not two plugs I can put timers on. I can just run two watts now if that sounds better) I have no practial method to go from 24 - 48 - 24 watts during the day.

I will get some more anarchis or some wisteria tomorrow. Given this situation should I wait for a while still untill any more fish are added?

making sure everyone get's some, even when you think your feeding alittle.

Ok, so I am overfeeding? I can cut back to what they eat in 30 seconds?

Ill give details on ferts tonight.

Chaos,

I still have more hair then algae.

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Chaos,

I didn't mean to imply that you were definitely overfeeding, I just meant if you can cut back it will only help, but truthfully it's the light plant mass thing IMO.

Don't go cheap on the add'l plants, buy alot and just plant some and others float.

I would do alot of water changes if you can. Like three a week 50%. That will cut back on the nh3 in the water column.

As far as the lights. I don't want to kill your HC and I think it needs good light. I've never had it so I'm sure the others will chim in. That 4 wpg on for 9 hours is definitely a problem. based would be 2wpg for 9 and 4 wpg for like 3 or 4. Maybe there's a technical way around the situation.






My Scapes

based would be 2wpg for 9 and 4 wpg for like 3 or 4. Maybe there's a technical way around the situation.

Like imposing on my work at home mom? I doubt she would mind much, but I would prefer a different solution. I could turn 2wpg on a noon, 4wpg at 6 when I get home and then all of at 9? Does that sound better?

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It's a mess.

I'm going to be brutally honest here so if you can't take, look away.

It's a mess not because of lights or overfeeding or any other fanciful notion.

It's a mess because it's been badly set up and badly maintained.

I have the diy co2 and some generic fert which is NO3 source mostly.

What generic fert ? Mostly No3 , what else ? Is it an aquatic fert ? If not chances are it may have some urea or Nh4 in there which will just feed the alage.

Not adding P yet ? Any micros going in ?

You have no regimen for dosing, it's hit and miss. No doubt the yeast mixture is behaving the same way. You've no reactor.

Basically you're whole fert regime is unbalanced and out of whack. The set up was rushed. You started with only some of the components (no Co2) and today are still missing some.

Now you can try to figure out lights and bio colonies until the cows come home but it ain't going to change squat. You've created and maintained an environment that is advantageous for algae and not plants.

Clean it up, clean it good. Bleach rocks,and in tank equipment and do a bleach mild bleach dip (19 parts water 1 part bleach for 2 minutes) on Anubias.
Start again, this time have a stable fert routine with a complete set of nutrients, if you are missing one the other are rendered useless, keep the co2 mixture fresh and find a way to dissolve your Co2. Keep up with water changes and keep the tank/equipment/glass clean.

Do this simple routine and you will avoid this mess. In a tank that size it takes less then an hour a week.

Anything else or just picking and choosing what you want to do will not work.

Or you can sit around pondering the mysteries of bio-colonies and lighting schedules and watch the tank go down the tubes.

Tough love.Being cruel to be kind. Add your own cliche here.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I guess the screws in the tank, should have been an indicator that something was amiss.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with anything Bensaf said, because it's true. All those things need to be in place to truly have a healthly, growing planted tank.

But with those lights, and virtually no plant matter, even if all those things are done, I still thing your in a world of hurt, algae wise. There is simply no plant mass to do anything with all those good ingredients. Where would it go. Without the high light and limited mass at least the algae would be from this dimension and something we could wither away with that sound advice from Bensaf.

I think we should create a scary tank thread. I have a few pics from an old tank that would probably qualify and chaos you have a few good ones from page 9, when my son got spooked.

My Scapes

Bensaf,

After leaving work I was considering putting up on the forum a post mentioning that I can take real criticism, because it did seem like things are going more wrong than they should if I was approaching this right and I wasnt sure if this was or was not fundamentaly my fault.

So.... It turns out it is my fault. Im sure you are right. My two previous tanks did not provide any expirence thats really relavant to this. They were ~1 wpg tanks without live plants and there were never problems like this. Anyway I never did the reading I intended to on plant nutrition and I didnt get a good picture of what is needed.


Ok, well enough of that. Ill approach this like a chemist from now. I can follow procedures and things but Ill need good information on this. So if you know a web page or other specific resource on plant nutrition that is a must for me to read I would like to know.

The specifics I can give you for now. The fertalizer is not miracle grow or anything.
It is this I said generic because my LFS doesnt seem to have much for plants, no phophate fertilizers and nothing that said micros on it so I assumed this was a decent product but from reading I dont think any of you use this. That is the only fert I have.

Ill order whatever I need to do ferts correctly and I would appreciate advice on which products specificly I should get to cover my plants needs.

I think CO2 is actually good now. I am using the sponges in the filter in my tank to trap the CO2 amongst moving water. The airstone in the picture is for air at night. Unfortunatly my previous flirtation with that acid buffer product is still messing up my test results (readings are way to high). Hopefully in a few water changes this will change.

For the bleach, what mixture ratio for the rocks and thermostat? It is possible the impleller can come out but the tank is pretty much one piece otherwise. Also, the whole anubias or just the leaves?

What is the order the restart should proceed though? Getting the proper nutrients first and begin dosing then do the bleaching?

Or you can sit around pondering the mysteries of bio-colonies and lighting schedules and watch the tank go down the tubes.

So, I really dont want to do the above, But your going to be getting rather a few more questions.

Chaos

Edit: Tetra, It still sounds like getting a few more of the anacaris makes sense.

I do think the screws are an entirely different thing though

You could add the BBA expirement tank, if you saw that one.

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Ok lets work this out

You can do the bleaching first. The rocks equipment you can use pure bleach if you wish, just make sure to rinse well and soak for a bit in de-chlor. For the Anubias hold in the solution by the roots try to keep the roots away from the solution. Again rinse well.

Make sure normal bleach , no color or fragrances added.

Don't touch the HC.

You can just do a 3 day blackout to kill the algae , the anubias will be fine but I doubt the HC will survive.

Before you start up co2 again, you need the nutrients on hand. If you don't have all the nutrients do not switch on the Co2. Turn down lights to 2 wpg, if possible, turn down intensity not duration.

I'm not sure about the Kent product. I think it's micro type, probably very little N. If you could post a list of ingrediants it would help.

You need a source of N - Kno3/Stump remover or Flourish Nitrogen, a source of P KH2PO4 ?Fleets Enema or Flourish Phosphorous. A decent liquid fert like Flourish Regular or Tropica Master Grow.The Kent may be ok but would need to see the ingrediants.

That's it. No chemistry dgree need once you have those the ability to use a spoon is all that's needed But feel free to research and increase your knowledge.

For a tank that small making up liquid solutions of the N and P may be a good idea because of the small doses.

In the meantime I'd be adding about a rice grain sized portion of KNO3 and a smidgen of KH2PO4 3 times a week. Add about 3-5ml of the liquid fert 3 times a week on the alternate days to the N + P.

With small doses you really are better making a liquid solution for more accurate dosing. I'm in office and am pressed for time maybe somebidy else can talk you thru that, if not, I'll try to do later.
Flourish Nitrogen and Phosphorous is a very economical alternative for such a small tank and by far the easiest to dose.

Apart from that keep the Co2 good. Change the mixture regularly, don't wait for the output to drop, stability is key. Make sure it's being dissolved in the water.

50% water change weekly. Keep glass and filter clean.
Iwagumi's are challenging to start up due to the low plant mass. Personally I'm of the belief that a lot of plants at the start is critical. Especially in your case where HC is slow compared to glossos or hairgrass. Fill the tank with weeds, you don't have plant them, keep them in pots if you like so you can remove them later easily. Try not to shade the HC.

As the HC fills and spreads remove the other plants.

Keep up on this routine (30secs a day to dose, 30 mins each week for WC and cleaning) and things will come up good.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I'd be adding about a rice grain sized portion of KNO3 and a smidgen of KH2PO4

I don't want to sound hyppocritical (sp) but don't you mean it the other way around? Isn't a smidgen much more than a rice grain and as such there should be less KH2PO4 than KNO3?

Just checking to make sure

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

According to the US Department of Weights and Measures, a smidgen is equal to 1/4 rice grain. So in US terms Bensaf was right.

But he could be talking about Indinesian units, in which case he could be wrong...

Either way, chaos just needs a little bit of this stuff

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Back in the saddle!

the US Department of Weights and Measures, a smidgen is equal to 1/4 rice grain

Ha, you live and you learn

I was thinking that there is actually a grain and the kind of rice I eat fits easily in a smidgen spoon (if crumbled up). Anyway, I am too lazy to test out.

Thanks NowherMan6

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Isn't a smidgen much more than a rice grain and as such there should be less KH2PO4 than KNO3?

I have no idea. I didn't even know a smidgen was an actual measurement let alone that the US government had a department for these kind of things. I meant a very wee bit. Nowhwere will probably do a google on "wee"

Anyhow.........

Better to make a solution and add a given amount of mls, easier to measure. You can make up a solution using the nutrient calculator here http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

Dose 5-10ppm of NO3 3 times a week. 0.5-1.0ppm of PO4 3 times a week.

CO2 CO2 Co2 Co2

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

If you guys want to get technical

Dash 1/8 tsp
Pinch 1/16
Smidgen 1/32
Nip 1/64

It's a freaking ESTIMATIVE INDEX

My Scapes

Dash 1/8 tsp
Pinch 1/16
Smidgen 1/32
Nip 1/64
very wee bit 1/128



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No chemistry dgree need once you have those the ability to use a spoon is all that's needed

I am actually about 90% of the way to having my B.S. in chemistry. so thats good

Ill read this more throughly tonight, everything seems fine except the part where I might kill my HC. Ill remove it from the tank if I need to but Its so hard to find I dont want to seriously risk it if at all possible.

Choas

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I'm not sure about the Kent product. I think it's micro type, probably very little N. If you could post a list of ingrediants it would help.

I have that fertilizer to, and it's also the only thing I use. Its ingredients list is this:

SOURCES OF NUTRIENTS

Sodium Nitrate, Magnesium Sulfate, Boric Acid

OTHER INGREDIENTS

Deionized water, humic acid, kelp extract

I've only been using this for a week, so I can't tell if its really doing much to my plants...

Thanks.

Yep the Kent doesn't look to be much help. There's no real micros in it and the content of N is an unknown.
Much better to use KNO3 as the N source and a fert that will provide a broader range of micros - Flourish or TMG.

Your problem is definately , 100%, a nutrient issue.

Get this in line and you'll have few problems.

I don't think 48watts is a huge amount of light. With the nutrients in line shouldn't cause major problems.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf

It actually lists the content of N in a little corner on the label as 1%. I gather though that you prefer solid NO3 and PO4 and a liquid micros? Ive got to say, im going to end up wishing I had an analytical balance at home. Not that I will need it, but I love the accuracy.

ill show you guys a list of what I am looking to buy before I do so I end up with the right stuff.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Hello all

you are loaded with all kinds of algae, the only one missing seems to be BGA.

So, about that BGA... A little showed up on some of the HC in the front (its limited to about a half inch square). Im blacking out the tank starting tonight, as perscribed, but I have heard that BGA is pernicous so if the blackout wont kill it I can remove it physically. Oh, come to think of it the HC has survived one period previously where it went through a few days at least in the dark to get here. Is there anything I should do as far as dosing, feeding fish that I should/shouldnt do during the blackout?

The bleaching scrubbing and water change will need to take place tomorrow (no appropriate bleach)

I was doing reading and decided to check up on my tap water quality. This is data from the water treatment plant. I am only showing the ones that I know apply, or might.
mg/L = ppm, ug/l = ppb

Fluoride mg/L 0.93
Nitrate mg/L 2.05
Phosphorous mg/L 0.30
Sulfate mg/L 26.1
Copper µg/L <10
Iron µg/L 16

The rest is here
In case there is anything else worth seeing

So, there are more nutrients comming with my water than I expected.

Im going to check with dc metro area fish store and see if anyone has the solid no3 and solid po4 salts and liquid micros. If anyone knows a store in the dc mero are which stock this stuff that would be helpfull.

Everything sound good with the plan?

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

The tap water looks fine.

KH is a little low.

GH is about 3dgh which is enough but shouldn't be any lower.
Mg is spot on at 4ppm. Calcium is 15-30ppm, should be ok for the plants you have.

So that just leaves the NPK and Micros.

I doubt you'll find the KNO3 and KH2PO4 at an LFS. Try a hydoponics store or order on-line very cheaply from www.gregwatson.com.

The micro fert should be easy enough to find at a decent LFS. Go for something like Tropica Master Grow or Flourish (Regular). A 50ml bottle should last you +6months .

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

KNO3 is available locally at Lowes home improvement stores in the form of Green Light Stump Remover, but since you're probably going to wind up ordering the KH2SO4 from gregwatson anyway you might as well get the KNO3 there as well, it's cheaper and finer in grain I think.

Don't waste money getting the flourish products for K and N.

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Back in the saddle!

As discussed you could order all you need from greg watson. For your 12 gallon by the time you run out of the one pound bags you won't have any hair left. It will last forever. Gregwatson also sells Flourish for the micros.

Or you could get the stuff locally, as nowher mentioned the greenlight stump remover is potassium nitrate and is usually found at Lowes you could also use a Fleet Enema for the po4 which I'm sure you could get anywhere. It's debatable whether you need to dose so4 separately becuase the amount you get in the no3 is pretty much inline with EI standards.

My Scapes

Nutrients on ze way!
I probably could get the stuff localy, at a decent lfs, but at a convienent LFS? unfortunatly no.

Shipping Method: UPS Ground
--------------------------
Product ID: Nitrate
Product Name: Potassium Nitrate 1 lb.
Quantity: 1
Unit Price: $2.17
--------------------------
Product ID: PotassiumSulfate
Product Name: Potassium Sulfate 1 lb.
Quantity: 1
Unit Price: $2.17
--------------------------
Product ID: PotassiumPhosphate
Product Name: Mono Potassium Phosphate 1 lb.
Quantity: 1
Unit Price: $3.42
--------------------------
Product ID: Flourish
Product Name: Flourish
Quantity: 1
Unit Price: $7.95

It's debatable whether you need to dose so4 separately becuase the amount you get in the no3 is pretty much inline with EI standards.

Ive got to say, this expirence being what it is, Im going to spend the 3 dollars and have the sulfate.

--- On a side note I wonder how much KNO3 you can buy before they are required to report you to the FBI. They do that will all sorts of thing in chem labs and I assume they do it with this.

-- On the main point is ther eanything else I should remember to do with the black out?

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Wow, I followed that link and the prices are great! I may be ordering myself soon!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

On a side note I wonder how much KNO3 you can buy before they are required to report you to the FBI.

Don't worry, they made an entry about you as soon as they saw your latest full tank pictures .

Anyway, KNO3 in itself does not contain enough K to balance the N, it is the combination of KNO3 with Potassium Phosphate that creates the balance (and I think there is quite a bit in Flourish as well). So if you dose a lot of Potassium Phosphate (what is your tab P? ) then you will for sure not need the Potassium Sulfate. But I am with you, these $3 will not kill you .

I am no expert on black-outs at all, never done one, so no useful info from me.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Chaos,

Just to make sure that I am on the right track, or to make sure that I am way off (either way, I would like to know):

I just saw your entry in the algae outbreak thread in the general forum. As tetratech said, you are a good sport .

But you made a comment there, and earlier you made a similar one here to, that makes me believe you misinterpret one of your algaes (or I am wrong, possible to). All the brown slime are diatoms, this is not Staghorn algae. I just want to make sure. I know the Dr. said something that can be interpreted as identifying the slime as Staghorn, but if this is really what he meant then I believe he is wrong. Your brown slime is based on silica and as long as you are getting more and more of it there must be some food source for it.

Here is a close-up of your own Staghorn, just to show the difference:

Attached Image:

Staghorn Algae

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Anyway, KNO3 in itself does not contain enough K to balance the N, it is the combination of KNO3 with Potassium Phosphate that creates the balance (and I think there is quite a bit in Flourish as well).

OH LF your so precise or is it retentive. Most of the K is coming from the n03. You will had a "smidgen" more from the P and maybe the Flourish. In fact the K in the no3 alone brings the K to N ppm levels to a 4 to 6 ratio, which is pretty much inline with EI guidelines, plus of course what you get from the tap, flourish and P.
Remember your only dosing like 1 to 10, 1 to 8 P to N, so you can't be getting that much from that "smidgen"

My Scapes

OH LF your so precise or is it retentive

Didn't your forget the a*** word before retentive?

I guess I am a little of both , but seriously - I think part of it is the second language thing, it makes me tend to take words too literally. This has good and bad sides and most people, like my wife, have learned to live with a guy who does absolutely nothing if the request/question/anything is phrased loosely.



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey,

I am clear what is the algae and what is the diatoms now. Though, what you circled on the top of the anubias is roots from the anubias, the bottom circle is algae.

Anyway I know what is what know. I looked em all up again, problem was no pictures of diatoms and the stagorn I found was little ammounts which didnt resemble mine.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I think I linked this before. This is a thread on APC showing excel treatment on staghorn with some very nice photos.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=94640#post94640

My Scapes

Chaos,

Below is a link for a guide to starting up an aquarium that I've been looking over. The first pic on this page shows how bad what appears to be diatomic algae can get. It's an interesting guide, full of some what appear to be good tips.

http://www.vectrapoint.com/main/manual/bms9.html

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Back in the saddle!

I need to be a bit more awake when I write things What Ingo circled in the photo is indeed what I meant with Staghorn algae. Chaos, both circles are staghorn, neither are roots, I can see only one root in the upper circle.

Dr. Yeah, i see now that that is also staghorn, the pictures in tetra's link were helpfull with that, because it looks so much different from the other aglae in my tank.

Nowhere. Thats a very helpfull link. While I am now 4 or 5 weeks into my tank, I am at about the week 2 stage in that article. So I am doing the blackout and then begin nutrients. If only I had an army of shrimps.....

Thanks guys, particulaly the algae ridden 'nature aquarium' tank makes me feel better. And I think I am back on track, which is good.

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I still would consider breaking it down and starting over. If you're not up for it that's understandable, but it's something that can be done on a Saturday when you have a few hours of free time. You only need a bucket holding container for the fish and a little cheap filter to run while they're in there. Just pull it all up, rinse it out, bleach what needs to be bleached, rinse, dechlor, replant and you'll be good as new. It'll only take a few hours and you can rest assured you're making a complete clean start. No decaying ammonia producing dead algae every which place to worry about (oh yes, there will be lots after a blackout)

This time you can start over with lots of hungry stem plants in the back and floating. I think that website does a pretty decent job at showing how to set up a new tank. (except for that part about the shrimp - sure, put 200 ammano shrimp in the tank, then when you're done, put them in your special shrimp tank for later! yeah, right... )

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Back in the saddle!

Hello all!

The bleach / scrub down went well. All the algae I could reasonably remove is gone. The rocks are super clean again and the anubias got the right amount of exposure to bleach. (my bottle of bleach said extra strong and I killed the arachnis testing my concentrations)

I will get more of the arachnis or some wisteria to get the plant mass up significantly.

Nowhere- Im going to try to avoid needing a total restart. I will make sure to keep up with the decaying material via water change, it would be bad to have a big NH4 spike at this point.

Chaos

Edit: Oh, I got a chance while bleaching to see my anubias really closely which was nice. There were mabey 8 new leaves between the five plants and some new growth at the end of the risomes which makes me optamistic about their growth in the right conditions. I noticed a few holes in one of the leaves (this is my low K indicator bensaf?). well all should be well in the near future.


__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Well done, Chaos. Get a lot of cheap, fast-growing, nutrient-sucking plants like anacharis, hornwort, watersprite, hygrophila polysperma, wisteria, and you're good to go. With that size tank, you will probably only need to get a bunch or two of each. Get comfortable with the proper dosing routine for the tank with those plants (they're also good indicators if you're lacking one nutrient or another) and then slowly replace them with the plants you really want.

Anyways, looking forward to a G-rated picture of your tank in the near future.

P.S. Holes in anubias is most probably potassium deficiency as you said.

-P