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OK as you can tell with my other posts that i am rather new to this whole planted tank setup. I have realized what i have done wrong to have killed or crippled my current plants. I have read a lot of stuff through little_fish 's log about his 125gal planted tank. here are a few things i am not too sure about (the more technical question

(LF) has his schedual setup as follows.. well approximately

KN03 1tsp 3x a week
KH2p04 1/4tsp 3x a week
Plantex .5tsp 3x per week
seachem equal .5tsp 1x a week

ok if i were to go to big al's what products would i be picking up to make this cocktail of fert?

secondly what do Macros do, and plantex do? I know im a newbe so be gentle lol



Shawn

Shawn,

KN03 1tsp 3x a week
KH2p04 1/4tsp 3x a week
Plantex .5tsp 3x per week
seachem equal .5tsp 1x a week

ok if i were to go to big al's what products would i be picking up to make this cocktail of fert?

secondly what do Macros do, and plantex do? I know im a newbe so be gentle lol

I have to write fast here as I am on my way out of the office:

These ingredients are from Greg Watson, I think the web address is simply gregwatson.com.

There you could get the KN03 and the KH2p04. I no longer use Plantex, I couldn't quite figure out the dosing. I use Tropica Master Grow (TMG) which you can get at Big Al's. This - like Plantex - is the micro vertilizer. Macros are foods in larger quantities that plants need and micros are small amounts, that is the only difference.

Seachem Equlibrium has some micro goodies in it, but I need it because I have a very low GH. It buffers it a little with goodies.

Gentle enough ?

Will check back in later,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Can i achieve the proper ammounts of nutriants and trace eliments by using just one product ie seachem flurish and since i dont have a c02 injection system use flurish excel? with a bit of seachem equil, by using those three products would i have enough eliments for a planted tank or is it better to mix my own cocktail?

Shawn,

I am home now

So, here is the description of Flourish from the maker's website (Seachem):

Flourish is a comprehensive plant supplement for the natural freshwater aquarium. It contains a rich assortment of important micro elements, trace elements and other nutrients. These include calcium, magnesium, iron and other important elements that have been shown to be beneficial to aquatic plants. For macro element (NPK) fertilization, use Flourish Nitrogen, Flourish Phosphorus or Flourish Potassium as needed.


The first thing you can read out of this is that Flourish is only a micro nutrient. The next thing you can see is that you need 3 of their products for macros. What is not mentioned in this section is that there is also Flourish Trace that contains other micro ferts.

Not having CO2 you are right about not needing much fertilizers, so if you want to you could go and get the Flourish line. Oh, and I think you may also need Flourish Iron. If you go that route then maybe someone who uses only these products can set you up with a proper dosing schedule. And yes, dosing with Excel instead of CO2 will be just fine as a carbon source.

I used to use the Excel line (not all products though) for a while in my 29G, nothing bad happened but I started up the 125G and have these ferts now available for all tanks.

The problem with Flourish stuff is that in the long run it can get a little expensive.

Now, if you come up with a "one solution for all tanks" mix, then you will be rich . Just think about it, different plants have different needs (red plants need more iron than green ones), fish density and waste production influence the available Nitrates and Phosphates (in limited amounts) but not Potassium, and what not.

Hope this helps a little,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So what your saying is that using the dry chemicals saves you money in the end? but just takes a little bit more prep time to mix everything vs just dumping it in... so if you were living in a fast pace lifestyle then premix stuff is the way to go if you just want to dump it in, but if you actually have the proper time its more economical to use the powder stuff, and you have the ability to control what exactly you need... See this is where im still getting hung up. what is it i exactly need? I only at the moment have one speices of plants and thats an amazon sword.. and lots of red algae lol... im working on that one...


so basically i need to find out the plants that would be going into my tank, what they really require, and find out what is the best route to go with the "cocktail" i need to create. i guess i just got to find out what wil work...

Thanks again for all your input with the threads ive posted. good to talk to someone who actually knows what they are talking about vs going to the local fish store and talking to the wall...

Thanks again

shawn

Shawn,

good to talk to someone who actually knows what they are talking about

Too much credit, I am also still working on this stuff.

No matter what plants you have they all need 3 things besides water: light, a form of Carbon, and fertilizer. Depending on the setup you need more or less of each.

All plants need the following fertilizers to thrive: Nitrates, Potassium, Phosphates, and - grouped together - micros. Amazon Swords can be supplied via fertilizer sticks that are shoved into their root area in the substrate. Loads of plants need ferts in the water column as it is their leaves that do most of the uptake, or they don't even have a root system that extends into the substrate (mosses and ferns, if attached to decoration, for example).

I am sure that once you get the hang of it you want a broader variety than just swords . If the dry stuff cheaper? Oh yeah. Does it take more time to use? Yeah, about 3 min more per dosing (mixing tsp measurements into a cup of tankwater, and later drying off the cup). On a low maintenance tank like yours that means 3 min maybe twice per week, max. Sounds doable, doesn't it.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks a lot for your help, its much appreciated, i definately love your planted tank, good job my friend!

shawn

Shawn,

Don't knock yourself out about this, it's quite simple actually.

Time for a Masterclass

There are 3 basic ingredients for a sucessful planted tank - light, carbon and nutrients.

Light is needed by the planted to convert into energy, carbon will drive the plant to use more of the light energy, the harder the plant works the more demand it has for nutrients.

All 3 have to be in balance. Whichever is lowest in supply is the limiting factor and the plants can't go beyond the supply of that particular component - growth is limited by the supply. If one is missing all others are rendered useless. The secret to algae free plants is non-limiting growth. i.e. having an adequate supply of everything to support growth.

In order to do this we supply EVERYTHING the plant needs to slight excess. Thsi ensures all nutrients are available at all times.

Luckily this is easier to provide then it sounds.

Light is about the easiest. Just provide 2-3 watts of light for every gal of water - WPG. With carbon supplementation this will allow you to grow pretty much anything. If no carbon is being added it's best to keep light lower (max 2 wpg)as the lack of carbon will limit the plants ability to use the light. This will greatly reduce the amount of plants you can grow as only the plants that can survive these conditions will do well. So plant choice is a critical factor here.

Carbon can be provided thru using pressurised gas, DIY made gas or organic carbon provided by Excel. If no carbon is suppplied certain plants can do well but growth is slow. It's still about the easiest way to succeed as long as you have patience and are careful about plant choice.

Nutrients are many. Basically broken into the MAcro nutrients and Micro nutrients.

Macros are those that are needed by the plants in large quantities - Nitrogen, Phosphate, Potassium and Calcium. Micros are those needed in very small quantities -Iron , Magnesium, Zinc etc etc.

Which do we need to add or how much we need is really determined by whether or not we add carbon. If no carbon is added demand for nutrients is very small so you may not to need anything as there will be enough quantities in fish food and poo.
Adding carbon changes that radically. To illusrtate what I mean, the addition of Excel will increase growth by about 3 to 4 times that of a non carbon supplemented tank. Adding Co2 gas increases growth by about 10 times ! So you can see there's a big difference in the demand foor nutrients.

We can add everything with just a few ingredients.
Nitrate is provided by KNO3,phosphate is provided KH2PO4. Potassium is provided by both those chem so need to add anything else. Calcium is already in good supply once your water is 3Dgh or higher.
Micro nutrients such as Iron etc can be provided in one good quality liquid fert like Flourish Regular or Tropica Master Grow.

So really all that's needed is:
KNO3, Kh2PO4 and a liquid fert. That's it. If GH is below 3dgh or 60ppm Calcium and Mg will also be needed but this is not the usual case.

How much and how often these are added depends on a number of factors like qunity of plants and fish. But basically you want to aim for the following range:
No3 - 10-20ppm
PO4 1-2ppm
Potassium 10-20ppm
GH - >3 dgh/ >60ppm
Fe 0.1-0.2ppm

If using powders no need for making solutions you can just spoon the poweder stright into the tank. Very easy.
Seachem products are basically pre mixed versions, they work out more expensive but are a good choice when starting out as they are easy to dose and help get your feet wet so to speak.

Bear in mind that LF's dosing you list above is for a 125 Gal tank and Co2 injected with gas. A smaller tank will use proportionately less and with Excel instead of gas we would only have to add once or twice a week rather then the 3-4times a week with an injected tank.

A 50% water change every week keeps everything nice and fresh and prevents build up of any component.

Fill the tanks with as much plants as possible, just make sure they are species that will suit the light you are providing.

See it's simple really


Remind us of your tank size again and we can work out a very simple weekly dosing routine you can use. It's mainly habit. Get agood stable routine going and you'll have very few issues.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,
thanks for your input on this as well. My tank is a 110gal 60x24x18 i currently have 2 40watt florecent bulbs. i also have bout 6" of gravel on the bottom with the gravel size being approx 1/8" in size. I know right now my light is my main bottle neck. I have experimented before with the co2 generators with yeast, and also i have used flourish excel. From the posts ive read and replied to it sounds like i have starved my plants for food they would grow fast use up all that in the tank and rot in the middle, break off and clogg up my filter. I am going to experiment with O.D.N.O i believe thats what its called where you take a two light ballist and make the power output for one bulb over drive it producing more light. I was going to get 4 lights for this and make it work for my tank. because currently i have approx .7w/gal

i was going to use these products for now until i get everything going and then use powder stuff.

flourish
flourish trace
folourish excel
flourish iron


should i use any others?

Thanks again

Shawn

i was going to use these products for now until i get everything going and then use powder stuff.
flourish
flourish trace
folourish excel
flourish iron

Shawn,

You don't have even one macro in that list. You will need at least Flourish Potassium and most likely (if not for sure) Flourish Nitrate and Flourish Phosphorus as well.

Or did I miss something that was mentioned in Bensaf's Master Class (I flunked that school )?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If you are using Flourish you don't need the Flourish trace or iron. Flourish Regular = trace and iron pretty much.

Better to swap them out for the Nitrogen and Phosphorous.

Potassium is ok, but if you change to the powder chems later you won't need this one either.

With that light depending on fish load you may not have to dose too much of the N and P.

With a large tank you don't need too much WPG. If you can get light to about 200 watts or so you should be good to go. Even the 4 X 40watt bulbs will grow quite a big range of plants.

On your tank dimensions is the 18" width or depth? Hopefully depth as this will help you make better use of the light.

Try to get hold of good tri-phosphor bulbs in daylight spectrum. They are a bit more pricey but give about 20% more intensity, last longer and are a real nice color so they are good value in the long term. Reflectors will help greatly too. If you are using a hood consider a retrofit kit so you can run PC bulbs or go open top with a fixture sitting on the tank, way more light options that way. I don't like hoods anyway - I prefer to see the top of the water and it's soooooo much easier to work on the tank without a hood.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf thanks for the comments, my tank is 60Long x 24" tall x 18" deep. I have just made my current light fixtures ODNO i was currently using magnetic ballists and then i switched over... I will also have my second bank of lights on a seperate timer so i dont have full intensity over the full 11-13hrs ill break it up a bit. I Currently have a bottle of flourish iron so ill use that in conjuction with the normal flourish. Then depending on my levels ill add nitrogen and phosphorus. I also have a yeast co2 generator going, so i shouldnt need to add any flourish excel. Ill let you guys know my progess, thanks for your help.

Shawn