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Red, before deciding on R.O. water, check out these sites:
http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/conservation/rainbarrel/
and also the bottom part of this site:
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/rain.html

I've found mixing filtered rain water to be the best way of getter my pH where I want it. Plus it's a whole lot cheaper than R.O. water and you don't have waste water.

Oh man, debate, debate, I love a good debate!! So far it looks split. Some say neons, some say cardinals. I guess they're sensitive to different things.

My plan to get my 55 up & running and cycle it with stuff from my 30 gallon tank whike doing a fishless cycle. I want rams and tetras (either neon or cardinal) So, I will make absolutely sure my tank is stable before adding fish. I have a lor of seed material form my 30 that I can add.

Y'all join the debate!!

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

I think neons are hardier. I've bred neons. I've tried to breed cardinals, no success yet. Also, I live in Florida, so a good part of the year I keep fish out on my lanai, in a tank with live plants that get plenty of sun and the fish can eat various little critters that might come into the tank (mosquito larvae, blood worms, etc.). Well after Wilma hit there came a cold front. I couldn't bring the fish in that day because I had no space to put them. I brought them in the next day and all the neons were fine, but not so with the cardinals. So, in being that the fish were both in the same soft water, had been established out there for a good long while (7-9 months I think), and only the cardinals died when the cold front came in, my observation is that neons are hardier.

Cardinals are hardier, however they are also a lot more expensive, and a lot harder to find as well. My lfs got their first shipment ever (atleast that I know of) and they had FAR fewer casualties than the neons. Neons have kind of become "dime a dozen" fish anymore. Everyone seems to have them, but I definitely think cardinals are hardier, however tetras are much more delicate than other fish in the first place. If you decide to get either you should probably wait till last, and wait till your tank is well establiched before getting either.
Anyone want to chime in with anything additional plese do!



Christina

difficult one, my lfs says neons are more hardy in terms of water quality bur cardinals are more hardy against desease.

That's what the LFS I go to said, but every one that keeps them says not so...cardinals are haredier......square one here I come!!

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

I don't know the answer, as I have no experience with either species, but my trusted LFS told me that "cardinals are more delicate" in terms of water quality.

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

Cardinals are hardier!!!

I got into a pretty intense debate with my LFS the other day and I need some facts. Which is hardier cardinal tetras or neon tetras?

I see neons all the time at Walmart and other places that have no business selling fish (IMO), but I've always heard, and been told, by other hobbyists that cardinal tetras are hardier and do better in an aquarium. My LFS just insisted all over the place that neons are hardier, but I said cardinals!! Which is it and can someone provide facts or a site that can back up either argument?

I'm not looking to be right here, I'm looking for the truth, because I want to set-up my 55 with either cardinals or neons---whichever is hardier.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Sounds good. It rains here and for me if I had to pay 15 cents a gallon for soft water I'd cry cause I see it come from the sky for free all the time

Well, our RO water is pretty cheap down here since no one in their right mind drinks the tap water. I can get 5 gallons for 75 cents. I would have a big problem using rain water, because it hardly ever rains here!!! It's supposed to rain all the time, but we have been in a drought and rarely get rain.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

It depends on their breeding. Sometimes you get weak inbred neons and sometimes they are quite hardy. Same with cardinals. You also have to take into account wild caught fish which will again be slightly different in their hardiness. Overall I think the 2 are equal and it just depends on the exact fish you get. The best proof of that is all the different answers people will give you. Some will say neons are hardier without a doubt and some will say cardinals are.

If you have different levels of sensitivity in fish, I would put cardinals on the same level as Discus and Blue Rams. You need to really have pristine water and keep it very constant. I didn't read your whole thread, but if you thinking of blue rams, these fish are very difficult to keep long term. They might look really good for a few months, but it's tough to keep them healthly long term they also have a short life span of 18 months to 2 years tops.

I agree that cardinals have the capacity to be more stable if they do get established, but they will be the first first to get ICH if your temp changes alot or some other parmeter isn't stable. They definitely do not belong in a small tank for this reason.

Last edited by tetratech at 08-Nov-2005 11:31

My Scapes

I guess I have some thinking to do as far as neons and cardinals go. The wild caught thing does concern me, but since I want to keep rams I was already planning on using peat granules in the cannister filter to make the water softer and more acidic. If it doesn't get soft enough that way then I will use 50/50---RO/Tap water to bring the gH down even more. I have very hard water! I guess I will decide when the time comes based on price and availability.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

The rams and angels are about the same size right now. The rams aren't so much keeping the angels at bay because the angels don't seem all that interested in the eggs. If an angel gets too close it is more shooed away then aggresively run off. I didn't plan on the pair laying eggs this soon. I wanted to have a tank set up for them but heh, I'm not complaining. As far as the angels eating the neons, my plan right now is to grow the angels out until the begin to pair off. Once they pair off I'll put them in their own breeding tank. The neons will be in and out of different tanks I have as I just love to breed them, so them being in the 55 may be a temporary thing (though if I breed enough, I might put some in there and if some get eaten, well, I'll breed more ) Anywho, these angels don't seem to be the most aggressive angels, and I know many people have success keeping neons or cardinals with their adult angels. It might just be the character of the angels in the tank and the amount they are fed. As far as whether to get cardinals or neons, I do think cardinals are better looking, but one thing to consider is that normally neons have not gone through as many hands as cardinals have. In my experience with purchasing cardinals versus neons, by the time I have had the neons or cardinals for a week, around half the cardinals have died compared to a quarter or less of the neons. Now I'm no slouch when acclimating them and I put cardinals especially in filtered soft, acidic water just like what they would have in their native waters (some accounts have the pH going as low as 4.5). I use a drip method to acclimate them and acclimate them over a period of around 3 days. During the acclimation period I don't lose any, but after they've been in the tank a day or two they start to fall off until they just stop and I'm left with half with the cardinals or 3/4 with the neons (sometimes I don't have any neons perish, sometimes I'll lose just 1 or 2, but I always have cardinals die off). I think the reason for the cardinals dieing off more is that they've gone through so many hands that they are just stressed too much. I know whenever I request them from a pet shop I have to get them as soon as they arrive at the pet shop because the pet shops do not like to carry them because of their high mortality rate. I mean think about if you were a cardinal. You would go from the hands of the collector, to a fish warehouse type facility (I forget the name of this) to a shipper, to a wholesaler, to the pet shop, and finally to you. I'm probably missing some steps but you get the idea. Neons are bred massively in Asia, probably shipped to a wholesaler, and then brought to your lfs. Plus cardinals are taken from the wild. Neons are captively bred. Captive bred species as I'm sure you know are often more tolerant of different water parameters, whereas species from the wild want water parameters like the water they came from. That has been my experience with cardinals. I wouldn't think of putting them in any water above 7.0 (and I think 7.0 would even be a bit risky, though I know people have had success with their cardinals at this pH). But hey, if you can get cardinals and put them in your tank and they thrive, more power to you. Just be cautious as it will probably be likely that you will lose several of the fish that you purchase.

Yes, cardinals grew to be about 2" and neons only get to be about 1.5". I personally prefer cardinals to neons because they are a little more colorful. When it comes to being hardy like divertran said, they both kind stink. They are very finicky fish for the most part. If you are trying to pick between the two, and price is not an issue, than I would say go with the cardinals because they get bigger. It will be less likely that you rams will pick on them since they get bigger and would have a slightly better chance at defending themselves. I do not know about where you live, but cardinals are much more difficult to find and they are much more expensive than neons in my neck of hte woods. It is all a matter of YOUR opinion and what YOUR experiences have been with these fish as to which you should choose. Ask yourself, "Which ones do I like better?" If you are looking for advice from everyone as to which one you should get, then I would say the cardinals because as I just said they get bigger than neons and they are more colorful.



Christina

That would be true for the rams too, so either one should work in this case.

Don't cardinals get bigger than neons?

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

they're both sissies on the hardiness scale, but I believe that cards are a bit more hardy than neons but you must maintain their water quality more carefully.

Thanks patrick.....that is very helpful information. How are the rams treating everybody since spawning? I've heard they can be little monsters when guarding the eggs. Are they keeping the Angels at bay? I've considered some angels for my 55 also, but was worried about how they would get along. I've also heard that when angels get some size on them they will eat neons. Is this going to be a concern for you?

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Setting up a 55 with rams and neons (or cardinals) is like a tank I just set up. Last Tuesday I got some live plants I had ordered (didn't expect them that soon) so I set up a 55 gallon with Eco-Complete. I had been running the filter I was going to put on it for about a week in another tank. Brought it to my 55 and put some aged filter fiber from an established tank in there. So had it up and running since last Tuesday night. Friday I put 15 neons in it and 2 skunk cory cats. Saturday night I put in 9 angels and 3 rams. Also since Friday I've been using stability (plus they say Eco-Complete is almost instant cycling. So with the filter running for a week, aged filter fiber, Eco-Complete, and Stability I'm hoping the water is good (hasn't shown any ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates, but it is heavily planted). Well I guess everything seems ok cause I introduced my Rams Saturday night and last night they had layed eggs on a part of my driftwood! Anywho, maybe this info will help you with your 55 you're setting up. After all, they are dealing with the same fish and tank size.