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If your Ph dropped that badly I would test akalinity/buffering and see if thats the issue.

If you need to raise your Ph I would suggest not using the Perfect Ph stuff and instead go with a buffering powder from Kent as the Perfect Ph has a tendency to cloud the water and is not 100% effective. The kent stuff allows you to gradually raise Ph and alkalinity to a safe level.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

Hi,
Unless you get really carried away with fertilizers, I
don't believe that they are the problem. Read your
Dechlorinators and see what they say. Sometimes they
alter the chemistry of the molecule making it harmless
to the fish but don't actually get rid of the stuff and
this can give a false reading.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

have you tested the tap water for ammonia and nitrites

I did check my tap for ammonia..but not nitrites. It came up zero...so it wasn't from the tap water.

I have not looked at my additives though. I use 2 different kinds of dechlorinators (water conditioners)...and about 5 different plant fertilizers. I am not sure that the ferts would cause ammonia though. What do you think Frank?

The problem has now been taken care of...the neons are in their 29g and Jack the Betta is still in the 10g which will soon be divided for my other betta to live in there also. I am going to leave the plants in there for them. Maybe with only 2 fish in there the ammonia and nitrites won't get high again (if that had anything to do with it).
It is still a mystery though to why the readings got so high...but no fish died. I will check my additives when I get a chance and let you all know if I find anything. I really think the chemicals had something to do with it also. I thought it was my test kit...but my 55g checked out fine and I know the readings were right.

*Kristin*

Hi,
Take a look at your additives and read them carefully.
Many will actually cause a "false positive" in other words
an elevated ammonia level when in fact things are "normal"
and the actual reading is zero.

An established tank should never have any readable
Ammonia in it. The fact that the fish are not dying
and the nitrites are zero and the nitrate is now becoming
reasonable, would suggest that it is the chemicals and not
the tank that is the problem.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Just a question, have you tested the tap water for ammonia and nitrites? Test before adding water conditioner then test again 10 minutes after adding the wc. Some products release ammonia from the chloramine, some tap waters are high in nitrogen.
If you've done this already then I'm sorry but it was an idea that came to me while reading this thread.
Smaller tanks are hard to keep balanced and require weekly maintenance. When you set it back up add more plants, I honestly don't think you can have too many, then rather than tetras a great fish to keep in a 10g are harlequin rasboras, mine keep company with a betta, 4 panda cories and 2 otos. They all seem very happy.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Update: I have been doing daily 25% water changes on the 10g. All the are still doing ok. I have the ammonia down to only 2ppm. There are no nitrites and the nitrates are at about 30ppm. That was before the water change I did earlier...so hopefully the ammonia is going down.
I have been feeding only once per day...and making sure I don't put too much in.
I added some Cycle hoping that will also help.

I got a 29g tank yesterday and after I order a light I will move the neons in. I may go ahead and set it up tomorrow night and put them in. I think they will be fine with no hood. They will enjoy the darkness also.

*Kristin*

Thanks Frank. I have decided to upgrade the 10g inhabitants to a 20g or 29g. I am going tank shopping this afternoon and will see what I can find. That way the tank will not be overstocked like it may be now and I can plant it better. Another reason for the upgrade is to get rid of my 5g, which is incredibly hard to clean, since the water level isn't high enough for my gravel vac (won't work).

I am going to clean the gravel, get rid of the snails, and put my other Betta in the 10g. Later on, when the parameters straighten out, I may add some small tetras...only a small school though.

I will definitely keep in mind about only gravel vac'ing one section at a time so I won't kill all the good bacteria. I know that is not the case since I haven't vac'd lately (been a couple weeks)...but it could be the cause of what's happening. Thank you for you advice and help. Hopefully I can get things straightened out soon.

*Kristin*

Hi,
Honestly, I don't know of any LFS, no matter what their
size, that won't test a water sample for one of their
customers. Some might prefer "quieter" times when there
are not a lot of customers, but in my experience, they all
do it.
Since your larger tank is reading "correctly" I too would
assume that the smaller tank is indeed out of wack.

Vacuuming gravel, and when, is pretty much up to several
things. The person who owns the tanks, the bio load of
the tank, and the feeding habits of the humans in the home.

If you are one of the "fastidious" types then you are
probably e to vacuuming the gravel way more than it
needs or should be. If you have lots of small fish or
several big ones then you are probably feeding a lot, and
they are producing a lot of waste, and you probably do need
to vacuum the gravel more often. Throw in plants, and
you then don't need to vacuum the gravel that often, and
then only in the open, unplanted areas, of the tank.

IMO, once a month is probably fine for a light to almost
normal bio load. You still want to do water changes, but
swirl your hand or the head of the Python over the gravel
to bring the detritus up into suspension where the siphon
and/or the filter can catch it. As I mentioned, only
deep clean the gravel a section at a time and give that
section time to recover, say a month. (conservatively
speaking.)

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank.

I am going to try to take a sample to my LFS tomorrow. I have mostly chain stores in my area...do they test water?

To answer your question about the gravel vac. When I gravel vac I usually do the whole tank. I may not cover every inch, but I generally do try to get the whole tank. I guess this is where I messed up. I had not gravel vac'd for a couple weeks before I checked my water today. So there is probably a build up of nasties.

I checked my water again just now and everything was the same. I also checked my 55g and everything checked out normal: ammonia-0, nitrite-0, and nitrate-10ppm. So that tells me it is not the test kit. I am going to go ahead and take the water to the LFS though. Just in case. I did about a 20% water change and I will check the water again tomorrow. If everything is the same (with my kit) I will do another change.

*Kristin*

Hi,
The first thing I would do is take a fresh water sample
to my local LFS and have them test it to see if similar
results were obtained. The reagents in the test kits
are sensitive to time, heat, moisture, and in some cases
to light.

Then I would ask what you did when you do a gravel vacuum.
If you vacuum the entire tank at once, then you are
destroying the largest colonies of bacteria that exist.
The gravel is the main "home" for the bacteria that change
your ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. The next largest is
the filter system. You should never vacuum the entire
tank. Instead, divide the tank (in your mind) into 3 or
4 sections, and vacuum a section every other week. This
gives the vacuumed area time to recover and carry it's
load, before you vacuum it again.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Keith: My substrate is small natural gravel, 3 inches in depth.

Filtration ??? is it sufficient

I have an Aquaclear Mini 20 for my filter. It is working fine and I changed out a sponge two weeks ago. I keep 3 sponges in the filter. I rinse off the bottom one once a month and if it is extremely nasty then I take it out and put a new one on top.

I don't have an airstone because the output of my filter stays at the highest it will go and provides good surface agitation.

I have live plants: Wisteria, crypt wendtii red (dying), an anubias nana, dwarf sag, rotala indica, and bacopa caroliniana.

I will have to post back on the types of foods, since I am not at home and can't remember the brands of each.

The only problem I have with tearing down the tank is that I have no place to put the fish. I have an angelfish in my 55g, so they may become food. The angel is not that big, but I am hesitant to put them in there. I have a spare 5g hex for my betta though. What do you think about the neons in the 55g??

I am going to try to take some water to a LFS and get it checked, so I will know if my readings are right. For some reason I just don't think they are. If they are then I have some tough fish.

*Kristin*

I have a 10g tank with 8 neons, one male betta, and 2 ottos. I also have tons of snails (pond and ramshorn) that I don't really want.
I posted in the planted section about my crypts dying and when I checked my water this morning the results were:
Ammonia: 2-3ppm
Nitrite: between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrate: 40 ppm
pH: 7.6

I have an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals FW master test kit.

The other plants in the tank are wisteria, rotala indica, bacopa, dwarf sag, and an anubias nana.
Since my question in the planted section was really about my plant...I thought I would post my ammonia question here.

I did a 50% water change when I saw the high ammonia and the readings I listed above were what I got after the change. The ammonia didn't change and I didn't test for the other things before the water change. I just freaked out.
My tank has been set up for a couple years. I have had the neon/betta setup for about 6 months though. The most recent additions to the tank were about 3 months ago when I added more neons.
I did find a dead neon yesterday morning. I was about to head out the door to school though so I didn't get a chance to check the water then. It looked like it had been dead for a little while, but since my tank is covered in plants...I didn't see it. I do check everyday for dead fish and can't believe I missed this one.
How do I lower the ammonia? I don't have ammolock or anything like that because I have never had to use it. When should I do another water change and how much should I change?
I don't change the water regularly like I should. I try to do it about once every 2 weeks and I know I should do it once a week. I think I overfeed too. So I am going to cut my feedings down to once a day. Is it ok to only feed once? Thanks in advance for the help!

Forgot to add that my temp stays at 80F.

Last edited by GirlieGirl8519 at 07-Jan-2006 15:53

*Kristin*

To summerize this am I correct?

10G that is without any substrate, DW or any thing else in the tank. If possible just remove all the fish only.
measure the water as you replace it, you will get a big shock as to actually how water is in the tank.

You did not do regular water changes? You now know it should be a minium of 25% weekly.

Filtration ??? is it sufficient.

Feeding twice a day certainly not required. Also how much and what types?

I personally would pull the tank down and give it a complete cleaning.

Wash the substrate in the 25% change over water (this will keep the good bacteria alive) If possible seive it to remove as many snails as possible.

Does your filter require any rapairs or changes filter materials?

Do you have any airation at all?

Plants yes or no live or fake? Small tanks do better with plenty of small leafed plants. This helps to keep the water healthy. Substrate depth??

If you have a look at My Profile you will see my Betta tank has far more stock than you have. It is heavyly planted, larger Eheim filter than required.

I think I have covered every thing.

Next step is up to you. It is either do some work or continually have problems that "could" get worse.

If you do decide to pull it down I would add a small Clown Loach 1-2ins for a few months top clean up the snails.

Have a look in [link=My Profile]http://
www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/profile.asp?userid=6741" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link] for my tank info

[link=Betta 11Gal Desktop &amp; Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos]http://photobucket.com/albums/b209/keithgh/Betta%20desktop%20tank/" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link]

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

It has been about a week and a half since my last gravel vac, but before then I really wasn't consistent and may have waited two weeks or more in between.
That along with the overfeeding are probably causing the nitrates and the dead fish, along with maybe a few dead snails could be causing the ammonia.

I am going to get a new test kit. The one I have now is Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master kit. Should I get the same one, since it is supposed to be a good brand, or should I go with something else. What other brands are good? I would like to get another master kit if possible. Is the Tetra brand kit any good?

I will start feeding only once per day and do small water changes.

PoisonWaffle: What do you think caused the pH drop? A bad kit maybe...or the wood?

Reun: I agree with you, in that if the kit was right, and the pH dropped so much that there would be more dead fish.

*Kristin*

If you've got a decent amount of plants and aren't overfeeding, you shouldn't have 2-3ppm of ammonia and 40ppm of nitrate...especially if you do enough waterchanges... so I think you're probably overfeeding...

I feed all of my fish once a day... never more than that. A hungry (yet not starving) fish, is a healthy fish (according to what I've read, at least)...it's better to underfeed than to overfeed

It sounds like your tank is a little bit overstocked too... but with the plants, it shouldn't really be a problem...

When's the last time you did a gravel vac? Something could be decomposing/decaying in the tank and causing the ammonia spike?

IMO, get a new test kit as soon as you can (or have the LFS test it for you?). Until then, do a few more partial waterchanges (25-30%?) to keep ammonia down...

HTH

assuming the water you add is good quality to begin with, do you have any buffer? i wouldnt start dumping acidic or alkaline chemicals. to me it sounds like a bad test kit, with that high of nitrate and ammonie the fish should be majorly affected/dead, unless i am totally wrong here. to er on cautions side i would keep up with small water changes...to prevent even more stress, heck, the tank might be like a timebomb right now with whats going on, the last thing i would do is dump in chemicals....honestly.

maybe some PH buffer if you have it (they have 6.0,6.8,and 7.2 buffers at all my lfs's). it might make the water a lil cloudy, but it does a gradual change vs a shock those drops can cause...no to mention i dont trust those chems or the test kits half the time...

I know for sure that no other fish have died. I just counted 8 neons and that is the correct number.

I have found a few empty ramshorn shells, so maybe that caused pollutants.

I think I will try to invest in a new test kit soon. I will atleast have to wait until I get paid next week, as I've already bought a piece of DW for my 55g, and some supplies. I will certainly check the water everyday and make small water changes. Hopefully that will help.

Do you think that if the readings were correct that the fish would be affected more? Especially the ottos. I thought they were pretty sensitive. I have never had problems with mine though. I will make sure all the fish are accounted for and try to get more of the snails out, in case they are causing the ammonia.

Do you think it will be ok if I reduce feedings to once per day? I think I am overfeeding. The nitrates tell that I guess, being 40ppm.

Should I add anything to the water to up the pH? Or should I just test the water and change it?

*Kristin*

I'm not a big fan of test kits, so I'm sure no expert in this area, but chemicals do age and do have a shelf life after which they can become ineffective and or give inaccurate readings. What that time frame is, I don't know, but they could be causing erroneous readings.

The drift wood can and does cause changes in the ph, not sure if it would cause that large a drop, but it may.

I think I would monitor the tank closely, making sure the fish are acting okay and possibly make a small daily water change.

Are there possibly any more dead fish? You said you have a large amount of snails in this tank. Has there been a die off there that may be causing the pollutants?

Just a few things to consider.

Jim

---

Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

bcwcat: No I am not using any copper treatments.
I also thought that ammonia shouldn't get very high since my tank is planted.

Everything is going crazy. I tested again and got:
Ammonia: around 3ppm
Nitrite: between 0 and 0.25ppm
Nitrate: 40ppm
pH: about 6.2

When I posted my pH before...I didn't actually check it. I was going by what it usually is. So I checked it now and got 6.2.
I also checked the pH of my tap water and it is around 6.8. I don't know what is going on. I have had the test kit for only about a year so I'm not sure if it could be bad or not. The last time I checked pH was a month ago and that time and everytime before it had been 7.6. If the pH dropped that much shouldn't I have more dead fish??

The only thing, besides a disfunctional test kit, that I can think of that would cause the pH drop is the piece of Malaysian DW I added a week ago. Would it cause that big of a drop (from 7.6 to 6.2)? The only dead fish I have had since then is that one neon I found yesterday.
The other fish don't seem stressed. They eat normally and the neons chase each other. My betta seems fine also. The ottos act normally. I don't understand! :%)

*Kristin*

Are you using any copper treatments?

I have heard they often give false amonia readings.

In a planted tank ammonia shouldnt spike very high since the plants would take most of it. I lost a platy on my vacation and returned to a skeleton but all healthy fish due to the overgrowth of java moss.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons