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I'm still working out the details for my 55g (4 ft) Mbuna tank. I know I want some bottom feeders, but not sure which ones are right for the tank.

I know people usually have Synodontis in with Africans, but are there any small enough for a 55g?

What about plecos...would a bristlenose do ok in the higher pH? What about a fancy pleco, like a Queen Arabesque?

I need some suggestions here...

*Kristin*

Don;t even bother trying hypancistrus or for that matter, even bristlenosed plecs in an African setting--not due to pH, but because of sheer aggression. The only plecs I would even consider housing with mbuna would be large hypostomi tribe fish, probably commons or gibbys, etc. And even then, they'd have to be pretty damn large.

Smallest Rift Lake catfish I can find is Synodontis polli, which can be found here. It's actually a Tanganyikan fish (the ONLY Malawian species is Synodontis njasae, which is too big for a 55 unless you devote the 55 to just that species!), but which may live alongside the fishes you're planning to keep. While most people don't advise mixing fishes from across different Rift Lakes, your only choices if you're looking for small Synodontis will be this fish and the so-called "Dwarf Petricola" (whose exact identity has yet to be determined), but the "Dwarf Petricola" is sky high desirable and consequently likely to be expensive. Where I am, "Dwarf Petricola" is a special order fish and commands a coronary inducing price tag compared to other Rift Lake Synos, with the exception of course of the beautiful (and large) Synodontis granulosus, which is a serious rich man's fish at the moment (£300 each!). If I was in the market for "Dwarf Petricola" catfishes, I'd be looking at around £40 per fish ...

Synodontis polli may be your best bet if you can get it. Don't expect it to be cheap, but likewise, don't expect it to be a credit card melter either - you should get away with the US equivalent of £10 to £15 per fish, which is a reasonable sum alongside the money you'll pay for decent quality "Cobue" Cichlids


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Couldn't just a standard petricola work? They only get to 5". Also, keep in mind that africans stay at the bottom most of the time so you may not need a bottom feeder.

5 inches might be a bit of a squeeze with the Cichlids as well ... I've seen the "wish list" so I know what she wants in there.

Synodontis polli would probably be the best choice. Small enough not to cause too many problems in the 55, large enough to look after itself should the Cichlids take a nip at it.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I do not doubt that s. polli would thrive in a smaller mbuna tank, but seriously, they are really, really difficult to get, not only due to infrequent importation (is that a word), but also, because of high demand. Other than that, they are far prettier than other riftie synos.

Thanks guys!

Unless I get really lucky and come across some Synodontis polli that I can afford...I'll just stick with the Mbuna. Maybe if I upgrade this tank in the future, I'll get some S. petricola...but that is years away.

My wish list, for everyone that hasn't seen it is:
Yellow Labs (1m/4f)
Cynotilapia afra "Cobue" (1m/4f)
Red Zebras (1m/4f) or Rusty Cichlids (1m/4f)

I'm leaning more towards the Rusty cichlids....but still not sure if I can find them.

Thanks again!

*Kristin*

Tangentially diverting for a moment, I'm surprised you're having trouble finding Rusty Cichlids - they're fairly prolific breeders and not that difficult to spawn. Plus, their popularity here in the UK means that big outlets usually have them in stock in their Rift Lake sections. Of course, the 'big outfits' I'm talking about here are dedicated aquarium franchises such as Maidenhead Aquatics that stock nothing but fish and aquarium goods, and thus far, from my experience, seem to be staffed by people who know what they're doing. There's always at least one decent, well informed person on the premises, and if the others aren't sure of an answer to a customer's query, they track him down and ask him to step in. When they DO know themselves, they give reasonable advice. I gave them a bit of a test on the sly

Now, in comparison to supermarket corporations such as Wal-Mart, my so-called 'big outfits' are microscopic - the turnover of the entire franchise UK wide is probably less than that of ONE Asda superstore. Even so, they do a good job of keeping us Brits supplied with exotic fish species, and even the smaller independent stores here can be full of surprises - such as the place in Runcorn I found that had Hemigrammus hyanuary Tetras in stock when no one else bothered with them.

It would be interesting to see if there's anything resembling Maidenhead Aquatics in North America, and if so, whether it's similarly run. Because if it is, and you can find a branch within easy reach, chances are your quest for the Rusties will be fruitful. Who knows, you might even get the Synodontis polli as well!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Who knows, you might even get the Synodontis polli as well!

That would be awesome! I haven't looked at all the LFS in the area, but I don't remember seeing them at 2 chain stores I've been in. The smaller LFS could possibly have them...I'll have to check them out when I am ready to stock the tank.
I have checked Aquabid and alot of the websites that sell cichlids and synodontis and haven't found any S. polli, as expected. I thought I'd try though

Thanks for all the help Calilasseia...you are awesome!

*Kristin*

well Cali, I don't know about chain stores in N.America that you mention but In my area(CT USA) other than PETCO, Wal Mart, and Petsmart theres nothing and you wont find anything out of the ordinary in those store especially when it comes to cichlids or catfish in general. Also just to note I have only seen a rusty once in my many adventures to the handful of LFS' in my area.

Also cup of noodles, many Mbuna keepers house BN's in their tanks. I have had one in my tank for well over a yr and he appears to be thriving. From what I understand, on advice from experienced Mbuna keepers, they adjust to the PH w/o any problems. Mbuna are not aggressive towards many of the catfish unless you keep the ones like Auratus or chipokae then, nobody is safe.

Glad to see you narrowing you decisions Girliegirl, wish I did this much research b4 I originally started.



By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
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I know of many, many horror stories in involving mbuna and ancistrus. The choice, of course, is up to you, and whether or not you want to take that risk.

Do those include the supposedly 'less aggressive' Mbuna perchance, or do they all involve the hardcore crminials such as Melanochromis chipokae and Pseudotropheus elangatus? Only with the bad tempered ones, anything is possible - if ever you find yourself facing an aquarium containing a Petrotilapia tridentiger, don't put your fingers in the water or it'll go for them ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I'm not well versed on mbuna, but I've heard enough stories to watch out regardless of what species of rock dwellers you own.

Well I've been reading Crusha's thread about loaches and Mbuna and I'm thinking about getting a group of maybe Skunk loaches when I get the tank setup and start stocking.

To recap, I hope my stocking will be:

Cynotilapia afra "Cobue"
Yellow labs
Rusty Cichlids (most likely...or Red Zebras if I absolutely can't find the Rusties)

All will be in ratios of (1m/4f)....will there be room for loaches? Will they be ok in a higher pH? I will hopefully be getting the Eco-Complete Cichlid Sand, so I'm not sure how high my pH will be.

Would adding the loaches first do any good?

Thoughts?

*Kristin*

The best choice if you're going with a loach would seem to be the Skunk Botia. It's tough as old boots and can look after itself in rough company. However, this depends VERY heavily on how aggressive your Mbunas turn out to be ... some people's experiences as related on the loaches.com website suggest that a Skunk Botia is capable of living alongside the serious ruffians and reprobates ...

One thing, Skunk Botias aren't in the least fussed about being in hard, alkaline water - they're capable of surviving in water that would kill most other things, and are generally considered "bomb proof".

Funny part is, when I had some tiny ones as a teenager, they didn't show any aggression, but then I didn't have them long enough to find out the hard way - they were among the fishes that went to the great aquarium in the sky when my mother whacked up the heating to 130 degrees F ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

you can definetly keep the skunks w/ Mbuna, again like many of the bottom dwellers they often dont seem to be bothered. I use to keep Clowns with mine and they were no problems. The only reason I took them out was b/c I wanted to keep it as Malawi as possible. Bottom line is though, that it will all depend on how aggressive your Mbuna turn out to be.

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher

So would it be a good idea to add the loaches after all the Mbuna are in the tank?

*Kristin*

The thought that strikes me at this point is that since all of the fishes are going to exhibit territoriality, the degree depending upon the species, if they can be added all at once without compromising the cycling, this would be the way to go. If the fishes are juveniles they won't immediately load the biofilter as much as full grown adults, but then there is growth to take into account, and whether or not the metabolic rates are going to be sufficient to bring biofilter issues to the 'critical' level if you stock them all at once.

Since the usual rule for stocking is to stock piecemeal and give the biofilter chance to adjust to the loading, it might make sense to put the least aggressive/most weakly territorial species in first, then the next in the hierarchy, and save the species with the highest aggression or territoriality rating till last.

One way of handling this is to decide upon a rock arrangement for the final setup, but don't set up the tank with that arrangement first off. Set up your tank 'dry' with the rock arrangement you want, photograph it for reference (take mulitple pics with a digital camera so you can work out where everything goes), then when you set it up 'wet' and ready for the fishes, start off with a different rock arrangement. Once all the fishes are in after 'piecemeal' stocking, rearrange the rockwork back to your original plan, so that all the fishes are starting from scratch and working out who occupies what. Then, hopefully, you'll avoid too many scrapes as fishes fight over established terrtirories.

That's one of the tricks of the trade with territorial fishes - go with a transitional decor setup as the fishes are being added, then once ALL the fishes are in, set up the final arrangement of furnishings so that all the occupants are in the position of having no territory to defend. Hopefully, this will mitigate somewhat against any outbreaks of internecine warfare, though with the fishes you are selecting, which you've pondered carefully over in advance to try and minimise the total aggression level from square one, outbreaks of actual combat as opposed to ritualistic posturing should, fingers crossed, be eliminated.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I'll keep the rock trick in mind. I did plan on adding the least aggressive fish first. I planned to add the Yellow labs or Rusties first since they are both less aggressive than the Cobue. Most likely, the labs will go in first since I know I can get them locally.

Should I instead add the loaches first, since they will be less aggressive (i assume) than the Mbuna? Should I add them, then the labs, then rusties, and then the cobue? And then change the rocks around once everyone is in.

My plans for cycling this tank are to put my established Rena XP3 cannister on this tank. The substrate will most likely be Eco-Complete cichlid sand which supposedly has beneficial bacteria (not sure how much this helps). By stocking slowly, hopefully there won't be a visible cycle. Do you think the established filter alone will be enough? Or should I plan on adding the filter and do a fishless cycle?

*Kristin*

First thing is do you plan on adding juvi's, sub adults, or full grown adults. If you are starting with babies it might not matter what order you put them in. The subadults and adults, I would say put the loaches first and it would be a throw up whether ypu want to put the rusty's or labbs next. In either situation I would add the cobue's last. Also keep in mind that tou will probably have to get loaches that are not too small as the Mbuna grow fairly rapidly, especially a dominant one.

The rock idea is not a bad one, I just say that after cleaning a tank I never get it to the same look and actually I kind of like it like that as it seems to give the tank new life. Have you decided what rocks your gonna try?

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates-
I happen to have become a philosopher