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As some of you may know, I've been going crazy trying to find Bolivian rams. My work was supposed to get some in, but we got in "Mikrogeophagus heckelyii" instead, which is actually a type of acara. Go figure. I definitely can't keep that in my well-stocked tank, and especially not if the fish is as aggressive as I've read.

Anyways, we do have some other dwarf cichlids in stock right now. The ones that have caught my eye are the Apistogramma agassizi "double-reds", and they are beautiful! I still feel the need to add dwarf cichlids to my tank to complete the stocking, and I am set on a pair of these guys. However, research says that these fish can be touchy when it comes to water quality, and that they do best in harems, not pairs. Is this true, and if so, can I still keep a male/female pair?

I have a 29 gallon tank with the following fish:
7 lemon tetras, 6 cardinal tetras, 5 Corydoras septentrionalis, 3 Corydoras habrosus, 1 blue tetra, 1 bristlenose (Ancistrus triradiatus). Since I have good water quality, I'm not too worried about being able to keep the fish alive. I plan to pick out the two healthiest-looking specimens from the store, anyways. My main concern is that the male will harass the female, possibly to death. Would this happen in my tank?

I appreciate your taking the time to read this and respond.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Brooks,

Much of the literature recommends setting up a male with a "harem" to minimize territorial aggression between males. The broad selection of females for the male also permits a possible mated pair. If the two fish as available, grab them. However, ask the LFS to restock the fish so you could fill out a group.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Hey Brooks,

I'm glad(hope) that I can help. I got a pair of Apistogramma cacatuoides double red (I'll post some pics when i get my digi cam) The male is definatly very aggresive towards the female. Everytime they would get close to each other the male would flash his fin and "kiss"/chass her around! I have then in a 55gal and the female has places to hide, if not....
The guy at my lfs said it is better to have a harem and let the male choose. Perferable 2-3 females.
I hope u have alot of hiding places in your 29gal if u plan to get 2. Like Bob said maybe get a pair and then boost up the group a bit later but in the mean time get alot of hiding places for the female.


Gee

Gee

!!I think I just learned somthing new!!

There are plenty of females available, though the fish are sold only in male/female pairs. Since I'm an employee there, I can get around that rule, but I'd be worried about tank space at this point. I don't think I have the room for four three inch cichlids, especially if they need excellent water quality to survive.

I do have plenty of hiding places in my tank, could a female survive in their long-term? Either way, I probably couldn't get two males to co-exist in there, right? I appreciate your help.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Apistos like soft acid water but they do okay in 7.5ph. I never got them to breed. If that's your goal you will have to do the R/O thing and add peat, unless you have soft, acid water. If it's not your goal you don't need the female. They are rather drab in the first place and the males are rather cranky with the females.

Have fun, Mike

U got it Mike cranky males. Females should do fine in the hide. Mine alwayz does. When feeding time she would just peek out and look for the male, coast is clear she'll feast. But most of the time during feeding the male is occuppied with his own meal.

Gee

Gee

!!I think I just learned somthing new!!

So, I've decided (with your input) not to get a pair. I will either get just one male fish (if I can escape the rule), or a male and three females, if you all feel that I have the space. Unfortunately, I probably have too many bottom feeders to pursue the latter option. I would love a harem, though. Even if I can't breed them, I will at least be able to watch the fascinating behavior that these cichlids exhibit. Can I fit several of these cichlids?

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

I'll make it short and sweet, no. Ok, the not so short of it. You have A LOT of bottom dwellers for a smaller tank as most of the volume difference between a 20 & a 29 is in the height and Apistogrammas stay in the bottom 1/4 of the tank and rarely leave that realm unless chased out by another fish. The Apistogramma will most likely chase the cories if they come in their space, but with so many I'm sure you could likely have a casualty. I've have Apistos that have bred and some that haven't. Regardless, they didn't like intruders in their space. I had 1 female Nijsseni kill 6 cories (not at one time) because they also liked the area she deemed hers. IME, females are far more nasty than males. I've kept Cacs, Agaz, and Nijsseni.

I'd recommend a pair at most. If you have enough hiding spots (I recommend terra cotta pots) and plants to block sight lines, a pair should do ok.

books im not an expert on the topic but i also looked into it not long ago. what i found out was agass need low PH and low hardness for their eggs. hard water and high PH cause the eggs to harden to fast to be fertilised. aside from breeding agass will be fine in the PH range.

on a side note apisto cacs live in higher levels of Ph and hardness and look remarkably close to agass. im not 100% sure the eggs will be fertilised in higher PH but they if they naturally live in the higher spectrum. they can also be kepted in pairs.

my favorite pic of a yellow version.
[link=apistogramma cacatuoides]http://home.hetnet.nl/~aquavo-purmerend/Apistogramma%20cacatuoides%20M.gif" style="COLOR: #00FFFF[/link]
nice red version.
[link=triple red i think]http://www.akvariumas.lt/galerija/linas/images/95.jpg" style="COLOR: #00FFFF[/link]

Hey Sin,

Is that triple red at it highest coloration (i.e right b4 breeding?) because....wow coloration is so nice!! Mine is a double red which is not far from it. Just his dorsal fin is not all red!

Gee

Gee

!!I think I just learned somthing new!!

Thanks Sin, but I'm not concerned with breeding these fish. I just don't have the low pH for them/their eggs, and I'm not going to bother altering it.

As for the A. cacatuoides, we've got them at work as well. Things is, they aren't very colorful at all, they're a dull brown. Besides, they don't look as healthy as the agassizi.

I appreciate the info, though.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

i have 3 heckilli.

dont seem to be agressive at all, all 3 swim round together, and basicaly eat the whole time.

PRETTY fish though.

not sure how big they get though, my lfs told me 4-5 inches.

As far as I know from reading around, Agassizis will live in a harem where each female has her own territory and the male who doesn't have a territory of its own will visit all the females in his harem from time to time.

Now, to my experience, which is with Cacatuoides and not Agassizis, but I think they're similar in that respect. I have one male and one female. The female has her own territory (I'm not sure whether she actually picked it or whether the male allocated it for her) and she stays in that part of the tank most of the time, usually only going around at feeding time, but now I make sure she has some food in her territory. She guards her territory and the near vicinity and chases the other fish away, but not too violently. The closer they get to the heart of her territory, the harder she tries to chase them. Although I noted she doesn't care about the cories, maybe she will when and if she breeds. As for the interaction between the male and the female, the male will occasionally visit her in her territory, but it stays away most of the time. He only chases her when she leaves her territory, but stops once she gets there. The female is very clever, though, and whenever she leaves her territory, she looks around to spot the male first and tries to make sure he doesn't see her leaving her territory. They caused no harm to each other or to any other fish in the tank, but my tank is underpopulated and although all fish there at the moment are predominantly bottom dwellers, they all seemed to have settled in and usually "respect" the territories of the other fish.

In other words, I think you're fine with getting just the pair (although it's still said that 2/1 ratio is better). It's actually nice to see how those fish interact with themselves and others.

Last edited by untitled at 03-Mar-2005 15:42