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Gang,

I usually don't have much to write in this forum, but I need all the help I can get in identifying gender in the Apisto family, cacatuoides to be more percise, and Triple-Red and Double-Orange in detail.

To make a long story short, I purchased a pair of Triple-Reds about two weeks ago. Unfortunaltely, the male of the couple died within a few days and the store gave me credit for him as he wasn't in good shape in the first place. As a replacement, I selected a pair of Double-Orange as the had no other Triple-Red. Assuming that I would end up with a female Triple-Red and a male and female Double-Orange, supposedly really closely related to them (Double-Orange fry can contain Triple-Red), and given that Cacs are Harem breeders anyway, I felt comfortable with that decision.

Now, serious doubts have been brought to my attention (you can read more about it, and see more pictures, in my 40G Breeder log in the Planted Forum, beginning page 5) with concerns to the gender of these fish, in particular the female Triple-Red but also the other female.

I am at a loss, the LFS where I purchased these fish is usually very reliable, please help me.

To start it off, here is the male Triple-Red, dead by now:

Attached Image:

Male Triple-Red

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And here is the supposed female Triple-Red. Some people say that only males have extended anterior dorsal fin lappets and lyrate caudal fins, but others say differently. She is being chased by the male Double-Orange, but not relentlessly, who is a little smaller than her.

Attached Image:

Female Triple-Red

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot of the male Double-Orange, about the only living fish of that group that I am most certain that he actually is a male.

He dominates the 20G QT and chases the others, in particular the smaller Double-Orange female, but also the Triple-Red.

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Last but not least, here is the smallest of the group, the female Double-Orange. She spends a lot of time in hiding, being chased by the male. The Triple-Red female does not actively chase her, but when they run into each other she flashes her fins at her and if she doesn't get out of the way she may get even nipped at.

All this made me very gender confused, so please let me know what you think as it is driving me nuts. If you need more information, just ask and I will give it to you to my best ability.

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Female Double-Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Personally I think they have a little to much color for thier size, something funny about that . However, that aside, I believe that you should wait until they get some size on them first as I believe any gender assigning at this size is a shot in the dark.

Ingo, you've probably already found everything there is to find on the web, but just in case, here's something I stumbled across. Hope it may help & not confuse further. http://www.dwarfcichlid.com/cacatoides.html

The folks at this site might be able to help out too http://www.apistogramma.com/cms/

Cheers
TW

Thanks Robyn,

I guess my search in this forum concludes with the same result as the one in my 40G Log, meaning "undecided".

I guess time and nothing else will tell,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

IMO, they are all males except the last one, and I am undecided on it. With all the newer color morphs (double and triple colors) and such coming out in the Apistos, it may very well be some females coming out with some longer finage and such. So that could be a female in the second pic, but personally I think it is a male.

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There is always a bigger fish...

I'm going to concur with ACIDRAIN. I recently aquired 5 Apistogramma cacatuoides tripple reds. I have 2 males and 3 females. The males have very long, colorful fins, and color splashes on their bodies while the females are very plain with only the slightest hint of color and only in the tails. You can't miss my males when they come out of their caves....you instantly notice their red finnage, but the females are hard to spot because they blend in so well with my Eco Complete.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

I have tons of apistogramma at this point. I can tell you that the females are very drab mostly and may have a hint of colour in them. They are also smaller and the fins are not so large and spiky. The last one of the pictures is in fact a female the rest are Definitely males of this I am positive.

I would say the picture you have labled as a female triple red is definately a MALE.

Thank you all for the input, and sorry that it took me so long to respond (have been busy at work and then on vacation).

All I can tell you that none of the fishies has changed their color since my last entry, meaning turning at least slightly yellow like females "in the mood" tend to do.

It seems you all are in agreement that the female Triple-Red is a male, what a bummer. I discussed the situation almost two weeks back with the LFS employee in charge of freshwater fishies. I asked him if it is possible that the wholesaler made a mistake and if he would know for fact that this was a pair of Triple-Reds that I initially aquired. He mentioned that it would be possible that there was a mix-up and that he usually can tell by the face of the fish if they are male or female (bullier in males, or something like that).

I cannot afford to have two males in a 40G Breeder with one male chasing after the single female, so the current condition will have to change.

We both decided to give it a few weeks, agreed on 4, and then we will see if anything indicates the gender more specific. If not then I can return the Triple-Red and get store credit. Maybe I would use that chance to arrange for an order of another Double-Orange female, this way I would be able to compare apples with apples (given that I supposedly still have a couple of Double-Orange).

Thank you all for the input, I will keep you posted,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

I have 2 more pictures of the "females" or "males" or whatever they are, plus a few observations on their interpersonal relationships.

The obvious male Orange is chasing the other Orange whenever he sees her (assuming female), and she spends most of the day in hiding. This high speed chasing is concluded in a rather rough snub to the side of the other fish, if she is not fast enough to escape. The Red (assuming male) also goes after the female Orange, but only if their path crosses. Rarely does that interaction end with a snub, mostly the Red spreads the fins and the Orange swims away. The Red is now out in the open most of the time, although confined to the very left part of the 20G Long tank. The male Orange occupies the rest of the tank and once in a while ventures to the left as well (like when chasing the other Orange or when looking for food). When the Red and the male Orange meet, the Red offers him the side and positions himself in a slight vertical angle with a slightly curved body. Most of the time, the male Orange swims on, only once in a while is there a snub (much more mannered and milder than with the other Orange).

Does that help somewhat?

Here is the Red:

Attached Image:

Red

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh, btw, all 3 have about the same total length (plus minus a little) than my female viejita II does (in my 125G), although they don't have any hint of the yellow mating coloration. Do female Cacs not turn yellow when in the mood?

Here is the Orange (female?):

Attached Image:

Orange

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok, and just for comparison of the last one to the one that is 100% a male, here is the male Double-Orange. I would have thought that he would seek the female Orange, but she suffers most of his aggression. So confusing

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And, although I am rather certain that this is not helpful (but you never know, and I would regret to miss a chance for ID by neglecting to show it), here is my 100% female viejita II in the 125G:

Thanks,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Viejita II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

For your IDing purposes, that last pic is definitely a female.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Well, that is the one of my females that I knew for sure. And also I am sure about the male viejita II (and the male Double-Orange).

Here is a nice shot of the male viejita II from April this year:

Attached Image:

Male viejita II

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Gang,

I would like to thank you for all the input and, in case you care, I would like to give you the conclusion of this journey.

Yes - both females in question turned out to be males. This was made even more obvious once mattyboombatty showed me pictures of female double-orange cacs.

In any case, both pseudo-females were returned to the LFS for store credit and Matty was so nice to mail me two "real" female Orange Flash (should be the same than what is called here Double-Orange). The male Orange Flash has been moved into the permanent tank (from the QT) to avoid stress on the new females and he is awaiting their arrival in his tank (40G).

Thanks again for all the help, here is a shot of the new females.

Ingo

Attached Image:

New Females

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Oh yes, those are very female.

I like the pic of the viejita. I have a breeding pair of the golden variety viejita. I love these guys.

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There is always a bigger fish...