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Which is which please

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Keith

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Photo no 2

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

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Keith

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Looks like female top, male bottom, tricky pair to sex though.The bottom ones has all the tail extensions and dorsal fin pointy bits. The build looks about right too. If the top one has been fin -nipped though, that always makes things tricky.

I agree - top is female, bottom male.

Eric

I have a sort of follow up question-
Can you tell sex with rams (bolivians to be exact) by how they interact with each other?

By that I mean do females equally stake out and defend territories like males do?

The reason I asked is that I have a similar pair, one is small and one is large with tail extensions so I assumed the smaller one is female. But, they don't get along to well and spend much of their time agressively displaying to each other where their respective territories meet. It's actually very interesting watching them as they try and sneak into each other's space to pick around on the others land for food. As soon as they are discovered, they hightail it back to home, with the fish in pursuit stopping cautiously at the imaginary line between their spaces.

Thank you for that. I posted those photos for MrKipper as well. My pair are extremly peacefull with each other and I have never noticed any unusual behaviour it could be they are in the 5ft well planted tank with caves everwhere. My pair would be about 2+ years.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

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Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

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Mr Kipper. Ram behaviour is extremely complex, but fighting and segregation of space is most likely to happen among same sex pairs. A number of cichlids, being higher order fish (rams included) have a huge number of responses not only in accordance to sex, but to the individual, and to the situation they find themselves in. This is the perogative of having a more complex naturally evolved competetive breeding behaviour.

There is the usual set of traditional behaviours of course, all the usual pairing off, fighting for the right to breed preparing nestsites etc at work, but equally there is a set of natural behaviours that occassionally the fishkeeper cannot overcome, including hyperaggressive specimens , specimens of confused sexual identity ( thanks to faulty fry development and genes that are too close for comfort)and of course the natural forces of partner selection. You cant always take it for granted that a male/female pair will take a shine to each other, sometimes partner selection is based on a criteria that is impossible for a human to meaningfully ascertain.

Developmental issues caused by poor diet, and psychological maladjustment issues caused by inadequate cagespace, territorial room, water quality, fluctuating temperatures or temperatures outside the suitable range,unsuitable cagemates etc may all affect compatible pairing and breeding efforts. Some fish may never breed , especially if there are lots of scavenger species around, almost as if they know it would be a waste of effort to even try, and there are plenty of precidents for that in nature.

Dont forget that if you have fish sourced from the same place or within an area you may be tring to mate sister with brother, father with cousin etc etc, some fish will not mate endlessly with their own siblings, and its a good thing too as regards natural selection.

Some specimens may simply have a personal dislike of each other, some cichlids have the memory to retain that decision, and may keep it for years.

Also a lot of fish, rams included sometimes really require bre-breeding conditioning before they will entertain the idea of a mate.

Theres lots of reasons why fish dont always get along with the opposite sex. Homosexuality or mistaken sexual identity is also a problem for fish as much as mammals, and sometimes a close pair of same sex animals just hang out as if with an opposite sex partner, sometimes co-ordinating the preparation of nest sites, but obviously , nothing happens. Some shoaling fish need the numbers to breed, and as with some other animals its occassionally useful for certain specimens to witness a more adult pair breeding before they get a good handle on things, though granted this is fairly exceptional, but its also true that some specimens who have had contact with multiple others do rather better socially, and make more effective breeders.

A lot of the time though its conditions that are at fault, and sometimes breeding can be stimulated by water changes, a change in water composition or something as simple as moving decorations around. Some species will even respond after medications or other breeding fish have released hormones into the water. Ohters, like many of the harder to breed species are missing a dietary component, seasonal changes or the space required to make them breed. Conversely certain medications can render some fish behaviourally and reproductively infertile.

In your case though I strongly suspect they are a same sex pair, this wouldnt be unusual though, a lot of rams dont always have clear sexual dimorphism, Ive seen males without fin extensions and females with them and vice versa. Its rare, but it happens.


Well there you go, theres a lot to puzzle through there.

Great read, and thanks for the info, LHG I never considered homosexual fish; It actually sounds like a very interesting thing to observe/study. Who knows, maybe I have a butch little female who's not afraid to defend her space!

And I hope I didn't play on the agression between them too strongly; don't want anyone getting the wrong idea. They may not get along, but they hardly ever physically fight. Most of the time its just all head shaking and gill flaring and that's about it. I do keep the pair in a fairly planted 60 with a lot of bogwood, so they always seem to opt to back away towards their territories instead of liplocking like they did when they lived in my 30.

You may well be on the mark especially if you happen to live in a big city. Human contraceptives, namely " the pill" have an effect when human female urine hits the water table, particularly in areas where water supply is at a premium and its recyled without much dilution. There are dozens of cases of fish sexuality and breeding having been affected by the trace hormones in waste water.

"Butch" female fish and rather shall we say, "dormant" male fish will be relatively common in city areas, and will presumably become ever more common.