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upikabu


I would not be too concerned yet they are possibly just shy of their new surroundings.

Keith

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Upikabu,

What made you think they were both males originally? Was it because they weren't breeding? What was their behaviour towards each other like? Was one chasing the other or were they peacefully coexisting?

The reason I'm asking these questions is that I bought another Bolivian Ram, one that I was 99% sure was a male. Apparently, he is a male and, unfortunately my existing Ram that I thought was a female must be a male because the new Ram is always going after the other one. Every so often the original Ram turns and confronts the other flaring his gills and fins. Looks like male to male behaviour to me.

Congrats on getting rams !

I added 4 last weekend, they settled right in and are out and about, although the pair stick to the cave, but do often come out for tours.. Not shy at all...

Guppys and platys for dithers work for me.

The Amazon Nut...

here is an article I find very imformative about Bolivian Ram breeding.

Good luck, I know my wish is for 1 species of Ram to breed for me in the near future

Last edited by Tetra Fan at 24-Aug-2005 07:45

Well, those Rams just answered my question - I came home tonight and saw one of them inside the bogwood cave guarding a lot of little pinkish dots underneath. ? The one other is patrolling outside the cave. I guess I don't have two males after all!

Off to do research to make sure they're doing what I think they're doing and what I should do to help them. Any good article(s) on breeding these Rams? I guess getting dither fish is out of the question for the moment?

-P

Nice pics, Sneaky_Pete! Thanks for sharing.

Oh well, I don't know what mine are then (they're also about 2". I guess we'll just have to wait and see. When do they sexually mature?

P.S. They loved the Hikari algae wafer I dropped in for the Otos last night! I woke up in the middle of the night to find them guarding the wafer while the poor Otos were still trying to make a move a few inches away.

-P

Alright I can be convinced to show a picture ....
twist my rubber arm why dont ya?
I would say the only sure way to determine the
gender of a Bolivian Ram is when they spawn.

First young female (~2 inches)
is clearly developing the filaments on top and bottom
of her caudal fin, haved gotten significantly longer
since these pics were taken several months ago, filaments on both these females are now about 1/2 an inch in length:




Second of my 2 young females same size, also
showing filament development, filaments are now much longer, about 1/2 inch:





My 3rd female ram, the only one of the 3 that has shortened filaments, largest female of the 3 @ 3 inches:



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Females will also display extensions as Sneaky_Pete has showed me before. Her female Rams have the extensions. How about a picture to prove it sneaky?

how do you know both of your Rams are males?

Both have extensions on the top and bottom of their caudal fins. I thought that's a good indicator for Bolivian males.

Thanks again everyone!

-P

I agree that they need some time to adjust but even then I noticed that dithers make a huge difference. Even with the guys I had for a year. I took the red eye tetras out and put a royal plec in for a bit and they hid all the time.

I agree with books and Sneaky_Pete on adjusting. My Bolvian Rams took about a week to adjust, and even then 1 female would pick on the other. I added a male a week or 2 later and he was very shy, but the other female came out more often.

I believe most smaller cichlids and even some medium sized, need dither fish to feel safe. When I lost my rummynose tetras (I think they were a bad batch as I lost 3 within the first week and the remaining few died over the next month) My severum would not come out of hiding unless there was nothing in the room. When I added cory's and more rummynose Tetras he came out. I know that's not really about Rams, but it shows that even larger cichlids like the have a sense of security with dither fish.

Also, dither fish are said to promote a strong bond in a pair of Rams which encourages them to breed, so dithers are good and cannot hurt...unless they eat a spawn.

Also, how do you know both of your Rams are males? If they are new, they are most likely juveniles. They require a bit longer than Blue Rams to mature, and it is harder to tell them apart. Females have a pink spot in there belly (similair to Blue Rams) but, they have extensions on there fins just like the males, and look very similair when not in breeding colors.

I notice the rams at the LFS are almost never visible when there new but slowly they come out. Dither fish probably wouldnt hurt your tank and they may help them adjust.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

I agree with Sneaky_Pete above, both Bolivian and German rams take a little while to settle into a new tank. Normally it seems like it takes one or two weeks, though the rams I've had didn't take quite as long. It could be because of all my small Characins and catfish, maybe they helped the rams to feel more secure.
It would be possible to do a little experiment on that- Introduce two rams simultaneously to a twenty gallon tank (one per), one tank with dither fish and one without. Just see how each ram reacts to the new tank.

---

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I dont really think Bolivians Need dither fish.
I think what they do need is time to adapt and
get used to their new environment. Rams are very
sensitive to changes in their environment, and it
can take up to several weeks for them to settle in.


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Thanks, everyone.

greenmonkey51: which tetras are you using as dithers for your Bolivians? I can't decide what I want: cardinals, rummynoses, black phantoms, ember tetras, or pencilfish.

Strangely enough (or not), my 2 males are always sticking together. One would occasionally push the other, but they still go everywhere together.

-P

In my experience, one is normally more dominant and out in visible areas, it will normally try to push the other around, and my tank is semi agressive, although my dominant male has no problem with his other tank mates.

Dithers make the difference with bolivians. Everytime I tried them without a tetra they hid and were picky eaters. I have 2 with about 15 teras in my 75g and they are out all they time.

Hi there,

I got a couple of male Bolivian Rams last Friday in my 23g and so far they've been mostly hiding on the back of the tank, behind the plants. I've already tried feeding with frozen bloodworms, brine shrimps, pellets and flakes and they're not interested (at least not when I put the food in, I noticed they munch on the sand often). Do Bolivian Rams take some time to adjust to a new tank? The only tankmates currently are otos, SAE, and some ghost shrimps. Do I need some middle/upper dwellers like tetras to make them come out of their shell?

Thanks!

-P

Renoharps,

I based my purchase of the 2 supposedly "males" on the (false) assumption that only male Bolivian Rams have filament extensions on their caudal fins and more erect/pointy dorsal fin. It didn't help that the LFS guy (who's usually pretty knowledgable about fish) also confirmed that they are both males. But when I put them in my tank, I noticed that they always stick together. One (the actual male) would occasionally nip on the other from the back, but always on the body and seems more playfulness than agression. They never displayed the flaring of gills like you described. But of course I didn't know that they were both males until I found the eggs a few days later! Now I can see that the female has a more pinkish hue on her belly, but to be honest, I don't think the pink was very noticeable when I bought her (I was looking for that sign too). I believe the pink became a lot more bright and apparent after she spawned.

It sounds like you may have two males, but then again, the flaring of gills and fins that you saw may be because the one who already lives the tank is just trying to show the new guy who's boss. Do you notice any difference in the color of the belly area between the two?

-P

No, I haven't noticed any pink color on either of the fish. They're not really being playful either when one goes after the other, especially during feeding time. I think I'm going to take the new one back, let the original one grow out for a few months and then try it again. It's really hard to tell males from females unless they have sexually matured. My LFS guy is pretty knowledgeable and even he admitted that it's nearly impossible to tell them apart when they're juveniles. Maybe during the time he's growing out I'll come across a more mature female with some color in her belly.

Thanks for the help!

Last edited by renoharps at 03-Sep-2005 18:37