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I have searched for an explanation or answer to this problem and found NOTHING. When we bought our house last July the water had been tested, and I evan tested it and there is no nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, or iron. There is however a tonn of calcium (I'm assuming), because there is a white film left on anything that gets water on it, and it makes tank cleening a real chore because it builds up on the glass and filters. The PH is above 8, and hardness is off the chart so I get no PH fluctuation at all. Anyway..... my problem is that when I do a water change, evan a relatively small one, all the fish seem to go to the top of the tank and gasp for airfor about 15-20 min, I tried using a hose attatchment that creates alot of surface action, and put an extra bubbler in the tank, it didn't help. What I have to do is clean my bathtub really well, fill it up with the right temp water and put a bubbler in it for about 15 - 20 min before I let gravity take it to the tanks. I have a 180, 130, 50, 40, 30, and 2 10gallon tanks it effects all of them, I have mostly cichlids, and it evan does the same to the goldfish. It is such a pain with that many tanks so I'm hoping to find a better solution.

Thanks

Hi there,
How often are you doing water changes, and how much
water are you changing?
What kind of filtration do you have?
Is it all the fish gasping or just select varieties?

Ph bounce wouldnt cause fish to gasp for air I dont think.
have you tested the tank water for NitrItes?
NitrItes rob the blood of oxygen, so would result in fish gasping at the surface.


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I try to do a 25%water change every 2-3weeks. I have tested the water and there are no nitrates, or nitrites in the well water. All my fish are affected and only when I add the new water (Unless like I mentioned I let it sit in the tub with a bubbler in it for at least 15 - 20min). I have a pretty big selection of cichlids, a few large gold fish, betas, and a brackish tank. There is one tank inparticular that I am most concerned about has 3 10 -12" Oscars, and an 18" albino channel cat. I really need to do more changes because the nitrate can get a bit high, but when I do, the catfish gets a a pinkish tinge on it's fins, and some of it's body, and you can tell that the oscars were starting to dread water changes, until I started putting that bubbler in the tub first. Like I said every time I've tested the well water there was NO nitrates, nitrites, or ammonia in it at all.

The problem is, lack of oxygen. The water in your well is stagnent. In other words, it is just sitting there in the ground, and nothing in it is making it take in oxygen. So when you do water changes, you are taking out well oxygenated water, and replacing it with very little to no oxyenated water. Thus, the fish feel this rapid decrease in oxygen and head to the surface for air. And to make matters even worse, your pump in your well probably is pulling water from the very buttom, or very close to the bottom of the well. And this is the least oxygenated water in the whole well. With no surface agggitation in your well, there will be no air exchange in that water. Even though you are changing only 25% of the water, this is more than enough to make the fish feel like they are sufficating. In our (human) air, the oxygen mixture is around a third of the air. It has been proven that even a 5% drop in this can cause a human to black out and eventualy die a slow death. And a 10% drop can cause rapid death. The body cannot breath fast enough to get enough oxygen into the body. The same goes for the fish, they just cannot breath fast enough to get enough oxygen into their bodies when you take away 25% of their oxygen level in the water. And it takes time to oxygenate the water. So during that time, the fish will go to the top of the water so they can at least try to breath, until the proper oxygen levels are back into the tank.

My suggestions, are to add your water to each individual tank over a longer period of time, such as at least a half hour, or up to an hour. I know this it going to take too long for all the tanks you have, so I suggest another suggestion; Get yourself a(some) 55 gal rubber drumbs or similar size tubs. Use these for only placing tank water in. You can get 1-2 RubberMaid garbage cans pretty cheap and they do the job greatly. Many people use these to mix their SW tank water before doing water changes in their SW tanks. I recommend you don't use your tub, as even though you clean it, you never know what you might have missed in your cleaning of it. Or what could fall into it while your are not watching it and filling the tanks (like soap and such). And then you might introduce something into one or more of the tanks that could be cattistrophic to your fish.

HTH....

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There is always a bigger fish...

Hi there,
personally my guess is that over 2-3 weeks your tank is getting super high nitrAte levels, leaving the fish stressed and then you do a small water change, which shocks them.
I would highly recommend not only increasing the percentage of your water changes (35-50%) but also the frequency (aim for once every week to 10th day minimum).
You say have tested the water and found no nitrAtes?
Is this the actual in the tank water youre testing?
I would test the tank water, not the tap water.
In a fully cycled stable tank, you will always have readings on nitrAtes (unless super heavily planted), but should never have ammonia or nitrItes.
I would test the tank water.
Increase your water change frequency and add live plants to add more oxygen.
This should help.


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Thanks alot for your reply's, to be honest I was hoping for an easier solution, but you gotta do what you gotta do for their benefit.

I do not feel it is a nitrAte level problem. As this only happens during her water change, and then only for a short period of time (15-20 mins was stated). If this were a nitrAte problem, the fish would constantly go to the top and would not stop. But they ONLY do for the short period of time during and right after a water change.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Test your ph right out of the tap compared to after it's been sitting for awhile. Here in Iowa because the water is so hard they pump it full of co2 to soften it and lower the ph instead of trying to mechanically filter it. That way it cleans things like clothes and dishes better without leaving a residue. However the co2 level is so high that immediately doing a water change of near 25% or higher will suffocate all the fish. The ph goes from 6.8-7 out of tap to 8-9.0. I can even just change/top off the 55g with 1g of water a day and I'd have the same co2 levels as running co2 equipment. To do water changes I have to leave the water sit in buckets with an air stone or sponge filter for an hour or 2 and to change over 25% I leave the water sit at least overnight. When you fill a glass with tapwater here it foams and bubbles just as much as pouring a glass of soda.

Sham, she is using well water;

I've tested the well water

So the city has nothing to do with it.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Doesn't matter. The well water at my mom's house is the same as all water I have ever tested in Iowa. Tests 6.8 out of tap and 8.6-8.8 after sitting for 48hours. Foams and bubbles when you pour it.

Thx for all the info, when I've tested my PH, and hardness they are both off the chart, I get this very annoying white layer all over the glass that has to be removed with a razor blade when the water line is low or it just goes back into the water. It also clogs the filters up. Which leads me to another question, does a water softener do any harm, I did fill it up once, it help with the build up, although it diddn't seem to change the PH at all. The fish seemed like they had no problem with it but I want to be sure. Actually there is another one, I have read that when you add water that has those milky looking bubbles it actually hurts the fishes gills??

The white stuff is calcium. As for the build up, if you do regular weekly water changes, the water level should not get to the low levels that leave the white build up behind.

As for the water softener, all it does is remove the hardness, such as the calcium, and then replaces it with salt. Some fish can tolerate this, while many will not. Those that do not, may not show it at first, but over time you may see a decrease in the health of the fish.

Not sure what you mean by milky looking bubbles.

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There is always a bigger fish...

ACIDRAIN, I figured it would be calcium, for the most part the water level has a major affect on the deposits, but it does slowly build up below the water line. I guess I have some research to do on which of my fish can't handle the salt, (mostly Cichlids). Which is actually going to suck because other than basically general information, it's hard to find details. (At least from the sites I've found, don't get me wrong, there are so many different types of fish that I can see how it would be difficult to go in depth). I do know that there is a thermometer type gadget that can tell you how much salt is in your water, I just wonder if it is really accurate.

As for the milky bubbles, I mean the ones you see when you pour a glass of water and you see all the tiny bubbles that eventually rise to the surface. From what I've been able to research, it is caused by the way the water treatment plant treats the water in the summer, as opposed to the winter, since I'm on a well, what does that mean for me?

Just to let you know, when I did my water change today I stuck 3 extra air pumps in the water shortly before I started and ran the hose at a slow rate and the 180 gallon is having a much better reaction to it. They are still a little stressed, however....... it beats risking certain disaster by using my bathtub,(I just have to make sure I don't get distracted and forget the water is running).

Here is another one, is the dissolved O2 caused by the agitation at the surface of the water or the bubbles.

I do appreciate the info I'm getting from you, I have tried to ask questions on a couple of other sites and they just don't seem to have the time to reply with any sort of really usefull info.

Here is another one, is the dissolved O2 caused by the agitation at the surface of the water or the bubbles.

The bubbles move too fast through the water to have any effect on the transportation of O2 into the water. It is the surface aggitation that does it all. The bubbles work well for creating a current from the bottom of the tank moving water upward in the direction of the moving bubbles. In turn, the bottom water is now on top and thus the current continues to move the water around and allowing the oxygenation of the entire tank.

Not sure about your bubbles. If they are the bubbles that form on objects within the water, during a water change, then that I can explain. Or at least partially explain. Under normal conditions from a city water point of view, the water is under high preasure. And as such, many air molecules are dissolved within it. Once released from the preasure (as in out in the tank), the air molecules then expand, and thus you see the bubbles.

Now if your bubbles are forming on top of the water, I am not sure about it. As soft acidic water will bubble quite often, but in my knowledge I do not know of hard water bubbling.

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There is always a bigger fish...

I agree with Acidrain about doing smaller overall % change more often. (25% 2-3 weeks as a regimen may not suit your new water source)

Is it possible to have a barrel in the garage that has a closer pH to the tank. If it is near 8 straight from the well you may have to have a secondary recepticle. (that seals for safety - kids/pets/property). Gaspting for 15-20 mins at the top of the tank at each water change would stress me out to watch. I would be anxious that each time they may go into shock or something.

All the best for coming up with a regimen that is better suited to their needs and yours too (time consuiming isn't it?.... I love it when non-aquarists tell me how relaxing fish keeping is SUPPOSED to be )

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

I do appreciate the info I'm getting from you, I have tried to ask questions on a couple of other sites and they just don't seem to have the time to reply with any sort of really usefull info

Yeah.... true. This site is wonderfully supportive to members. I must go and vote now.

this site is truly the best for getting a response. /:'

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Jewel,

Interesting problem. Sounds like you are sitting on top the Niagara escarpment, a big chunk of limestone that runs from Niagara falls and ends in Wisconsin. The limestone, calcium carbonate, will give you very hard water and coat your glass and equipment. Using a water softener exchanges the calcium carbonate mineral ions for salt ions in your water. I have similar water and I use a water softener without problems. By the way, my whites are whiter using the water softener for laundry!

If you decide to add a water softener, you may have a slight rise in salinity. It will not be a problem for the goldfish or the oscars or any rift lake cichlids. However, it may cause a problem for that catfish of yours.

I do think that both Sham and Acidrain are saying the same thing. The small bubbles that you see when you fill the tank is CO2 degassing from your water. Pressure from a well pump will give the same effect as pressure from city water. A common misconception is that running an aeration line into water, oxygenates the water. It doesn't. The turbulence caused by the bubbles creates the oxygen exchange at the surface of the water. When you aerate the water, you are actually de-gassing the CO2. I think that if you measure your tank pH prior to a water change, measure your water pH directly at the tap and then measure the pH of a volume of water that has been aerated and heated for 24 hours, you will see a distinct change in pH in the samples.

I also agree with the writer who said that you might be better served with more frequent water changes. More frequent water changes acclimate your fish to the specifics of your water supply. A wait of two or three weeks for a water change makes the tank water vary substantially from the water supply, particularly if you have large messy fish, like GOLDFISH, OSCARS and an unnamed catfish that is probably only slightly smaller than a Cadillac (pink after water changes)!

Big fish equal large producers of waste that leads to high nitrates without frequent water changes. Plants will help to reduce nitrates. The bad news is that goldfish, oscars and that catfish will shred any plants. Well, the carp may tap on the front glass and ask for dressing to go with the salad that you gave them. By the way, pinkness in fins is an indicator of nitrate poisoning in carp, catfish and many cichlids. The best way to reduce nitrates is water changes.

If your nitrates are 50 ppm and you do a 10% water change then you will drive the nitrates down to 45 ppm. Depending on the fishload of your tanks, you may want to do a series of 10% to 20% water changes to drive down the nitrates to 20 ppm or less. I would test my tanks for nitrates and then take water samples to my LFS for them to test for nitrates prior to a water change. The reason for the double test is to see if I need a new nitrate test kit. The reagents can go old quickly... a very nice way of saying that the LFS has the kits on their shelves for much too long before you buy them. It's good to check the accuracy of what you have.

When you embark on the new water change regime, keep a log of your water changes and take a nitrAte reading after each water change. It will give you an indicator of the progress that you are making in controlling an often overlooked problem.

No easy answers...



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

There sure aren't any easy answers, but at least now I have a much better understanding of whats really going on, rather than assumptions.... which will actually make it a bit easier. I think then as far as my catfish is concerned, if I stop putting in aquarium salt and use my water softener, he should be ok then...... as far as I can tell the aquarium salt doesn't seem to bother him.....

Thanks again so much for all your help....