FishProfiles.com Message Forums

The "Galaxy Rasbora" has just been named!

Here is the paper describing it along with its new scientific name, which is Celestichthys margaritatus ... plus, the paper has some EXQUISITE photographs of the fish, FAR better than anything else I've ever seen, so this paper is a MUST HAVE for all you fellow fish fans! Just one fly in this particular ointment - the PDF file is HUGE, but then it DOES contain high resolution photos of the fish (both sexes), PLUS scanning electron micographs of important anatomical details ...

The BIG news is that it isn't a Rasbora at all - it's a Danionin, and as evidence of this includes comparative anatomical analysis with "Microrasbora" erythromicron (also illustrated) and some notes on Danionin anatomy in general, including some of the indications that Celestichthys margaritatus may be a sort of transitional form connecting the fully developed Danionins with other cyprinids.

So now we can set about building a profile for this fish at last.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

And again, thank for the update Cali. You have been pretty busy in the research area lately.

Jim

---

Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

It's part of the fun of fishkeeping.

I was surprised this thread didn't invite more takers, given the huge amount of interest there is in the Galaxy "Rasbora", which will probably need a different common name now that it's been found to be more closely related to the Danios than to the true Rasboras. However, what that name could be is probably going to cause more head scratching than finding a taxonomic name for it!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Sweet! How lo0ng do you think that it will take to have them sold here in the americas?

><> ~=!Vote Today!=~ <><
-----> View My Dragons <-----

That depends on a lot of things, they have been over collected and lots of social groupings and genetic lineages will have already been corrupted and lost. Breeding truly viable lines of them will need to be carefully managed considering the comparatively few remaining specimens. The market will demand them as a luxury fish, so expect to wait some time, and pay high prices.

Id be more worried about the species being saved than actually trying to acquire one. Its probably irresponsible collecting them on a private basis as yet, and most of the remaining fish should go to a few major sources and large breeders to preserve the genetic variation of the species.

Every fish that ends up in a private tank with no option to breed is a hugely important piece of genetic variation lost.This fish might not survive in the wild, chances are , that most living specimens are already in the hands of private keepers, and most doomed to die without ever breeding.

Most specimens may die if put into community, this is a species that came from a very limited habitat, didnt co-exist with many species of fish, and so probably has little or no immunity to many common aquarium diseases.

Its a great shame.

I think they ought to be made cites appendix one, and the habitat basically sealed off from human interference. If that means the species is saved, Im happy, even if it means I never get to own one. If the species and its habitat are saved now, it could mean that in the years to come limited numbers of wild specimens may become available again.

Id rather wait.Id never exploit a species because of its exclusivity value. What kind of galactic dunghead would you have to be to do that? Its a common reaction in people to want the rare, the fragile and the endangered, but it takes maturity to say "I personally havent got what it takes to save the species, and I want no part in the exploitation of this species".

All but the most gifted, scientific, and well heeled and equipped keepers will have neither the knowledge or the ability to manage breeding specimens to retain their genetic strength. You have to be very well connected even to find specimens with which to "breed out" and preserve the vigour of your own generations of fish. It would be a great shame if the species was ruined by bad breeding. Just look in your LFS , there are fish in the hobby that drop dead as soon as looked at, basically because they are overbred, selectively bred, and came from genepools that were too limited.

Id rather not see these special and beautiful little fish go the same way.

Quash your desire people!

They are available here already Goby. You can get them on Aquabid or order them Online Fish Stock. I got 14 of them about 3 weeks ago paid a nice bit of money too.. I'm tyring to breed them but nothing hopefully this article will help me haven't been able to read it all but I will. For the purpose of saving. They have their own little 26 gal tank just them no other fish except for 3 Micro Cories and a lot of snails. Got Java moss water sprite duck weed and a few others plants.

Djrichie
"Don't Panic"

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Apparently some other people have had considerable luck breeding them, and say they're actually among the easier of the Rasboras to breed (although, as we now know, they aren't Rasboras...) Given this fact, maybe getting a large captive breeding population is actually the best thing for their future survival.

Yes obviously, but a well managed one as opposed, to just maxing out numbers and selling them off. We could ruin the species by not governing the genetic variability correctly. We wont know how much damage is done until we get 4 or 5 generations down the line. High numbers of stock is not the same as genetically viable stock. If captive stocks get breeding depression- thats it for the galaxies. Sometimes things look rosy for a few years, and then the species starts to crash, wiped out by disease and infertility. With most species its not a big problem because we can keep collecting wild specimens to top up the breeders ranks,reinvigorating genetic lines, with these guys that probably wont be possible.

Longhair
Just so you know. My plan is after I get them to start a good breeding base. I will trade,purchase additional fish so to keep the genie pool wide. I have no intention of selective breeding. I have a 55 sitting here just for them.

Djrichie
"Don't Panic"

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Its not so much that is "selective breeding" thats the problem (although selective breeding these guys for colour would be a mega- stupid idea),its more subtle than that, its interbreeding thats the problem. To maintain reasonable genetic health at least every three generations you have to introduce unrelated breeding stock, and if you can introduce new breeding stock every generation, all documented, so much for the better. Youve got the right idea though. As long as you can verify the parentage of new galaxies, otherwise you might be just crossing you line with another sibling from the same breeder. Generally with fish a perpetual breeding colony needs 30 unrelated specimens and even then every few years you might want to interject some new blood. Its not unusual for the first few breeders who crack breeding commercially to saturate the market, thus meaning all of the specimens you can buy locally tend to be too similar genetically.

A lot of the management of genetic lines is the sort of thing you find in zoo breeding programmes, and thats why when numbers of any given species are low, they dont just go for any animal to breed from. They choose the lines for variation and strength, because generally speaking its easy for one genetic line to predominate and then be wiped out later on, just as many fish get weaker, cows become infertile, pandas have low fertility, etc etc. A lot of it applies to fish.

Good for you for heading in the right direction though ., a lot of people wouldnt know and wouldnt care. You know the type, just want a pretty fish , dont care about the cost, just like people who have to go marlin fishing or want tigerskin rugs on the wall. To me when a fish's habitat gets wiped out , raging collecting is about the same level. I think everyone who has galaxies should make an effort to stay networked.

Think of times past when the neon tetra was critically endangered, we saved it sure, but look how long the average lifespan of a neon tetra has dropped.From 15 years odd to an average of three or four? If you wanted to repopulate tetras to the wild if they had got completely wiped out, youd be hard pressed to get one ready for release that could last a single season they are now so weak. Thankfully neon tetra recovery was organised early on , and reintroductions and preservation of habitat largely successful, we probably couldnt do it again from captive stocks now!

One thing I will say though, with a species like this and a nicely organised breeding project, just make sure you do your quarantines. Be a damn shame to lose some good specimens from disease.

Sincerely good luck with it!

I have already started looking for other breeders and suppliers I have found them in Fl, England. My hope is that because they have not been mass marketed that i will be able to find a mixed gene pool. I think what I need to do is get some more now and mix the stock.
My original ideal was to send back 20% to 30% of my stock but was told because of international laws and the fact that i couldn't be sure they would arrive. this would not be possible.

Djrichie
"Don't Panic"

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

I've got to agree with LHG's points. I've got 10 of the Galaxy Rasbora's (or Celestial Pearl Danio), and I bought them before it came to light that they were being over-collected. My reason for buying them was that they were a newly discovered species and I found them a truly beautiful fish. However, if I'd known what we now know about the threat to the wild population, I would never have bought them.

I still consider myself new to the hobby - only a couple of years which compared to some members here is barely cycled and I'm really not the person to begin a breeding programme for an endangered species. However, at least I feel as though I'm ahead of many people that I over hear in my LFS. I've done the research before I bought them, they only share a tank with Oto's, and I would like to start breeding fish (although maybe something a little easier and with a little less pressure than this). At least I'm keeping an eye on the internet for any tips on how to breed them. How many people are buying them without knowing anything about them? How many people go into their LFS without ever looking on the internet for help or the latest information?

It would be nice if the retailers could take some action over this. Without mentioning names (as I believe that even the most ethical retailers are all behaving in this manner), a fish retail chain in the UK still has these fish for sale to anyone willing to pay the price. They should be taken off of general sale and if they must be sold, then only to their trusted customers who they've got a history with and know a bit about them (i.e. not me). Unfortunately I suspect that this isn't going to happen.

At this point, I guess all we can hope for is that the various private keepers, ranging from those who know what they're doing to the likes of me who are inexperienced in breeding fish, are able to succesfully breed them, and that the fishkeeping community becomes knowledgeable about their plight so that people who aren't suitable to keep these fish don't.

A "heads up" on this issue ...

My LFS showed me his wholesaler's list. Under the entry for "Galaxy Rasbora" is read as follows:

This fish is being withdrawn from sale, to take effect IMMEDIATELY stocks are exhausted, as we are informed that the species is endangered in the wild, and due to be placed upon the CITES list in the very near future. We advise all our retailers NOT to take orders for this species.

So it looks as though at least one wholesaler here in the UK has decided to make some moves in this direction.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

It had to happen really, thanks to pfh and others the plight of this species has been well publicised. I just hope cites get moving in time. Most of the captive specimens outside of zoos will never legally fulfil the quarantine requirement for rerelease, so all but a few of the taken fish will not be going back. Effectively as far as a contribution to wild populations goes, captive breeding efforts by the public might as well not happen. I guess what we are talking about here is the preservation of the fish in the hobby now.

Shoal sizes in their natural habitat will be way down, and many of the remaining fish will be picked off. The primary parental generation for the next 3 years will be reduced to effectively nothing. This is going to be a very hard won victory for the conservation of this species. One thing is for certain though, for there to be any chance , market demand for wild specimens has to be immediately and completely squashed.

I hope to god the habitat will be managed successfully. To see weak inbred specimens in the hobby become the only populations left in the world would be a truly terrible thing. I still think most remaining specimens in shops should go to specialists and aquatic zoos. At least that way the specimens will have decent genetic variability, and at least some chance of either they or their progeny being vetted, licensed, and released back to the wild should the need arise. For those specimens in private hands, this will never happen.

The thing to do is get the zoos and aquatic parks involved now. Actually I just drafted and sent out a few letters to that effect. Might be a good idea if you have a zoological park near you witha good aquatic department to run the idea past them, after all, all they have to do is send someone out to an LFS and pick themselves up a potential cites one species . It'll make sense to them , I guarantee it.

ergo:

"Im not sure if you are aware of the plight of the tropical fish species Celestichthys margaritatus , this little fish has had much of its habitat destroyed, and is still available in shops in your area. Many specimens of these fish represent first generation specimens of a fish about to become critically endangered, and shortly in all likelihood about to be made CITES appendix 1, it might be worth your while expending a little of the budget on purchasing some before they all end up in the hands of private keepers, for a conservation and breeding effort. For little money, you could acquire many specimens from which a viable breeding project could be formed. They would make a decent display fish too, even though they are tiny, and they are quite the topic of the moment .

Never has there been such a chance to do so much good by literally buying up a few specimens from a petshop. Please, please, do something to help preserve the genetic variability of this species while it is still easy to do so, and before a lot of kids and amateurs get their hands on them. If I had the money and tankspace id do it myself, and that in a way is what worries me, many specimens may be lost to amateur keepers meaning well and in effect removing fish from any possibility of rerelease should the wild populations fail.

Thanks for taking the time to read this."


Maybe some of the parks are already aware, but it would be a shame if they missed these few weeks to do the right thing, especially when it is so cheap and easy to do so.Its as easy as finding their website, hitting the contact address and pasting that in.Its the only way I can think of that some specimens might be held ready for rerelease should the worst happen.

Ok, you guys are doing a great job. a friend of mine just came by a drop off 12 galaxies because he's scare he will kill them. I paid him what he paid for them. So was this wrong I already had some and he knows what my plans are and really he would have killed them. has a big love for the hobby but he doesn't have the time for all the work you need to put in. Works a couple of jobs and likes to go out when he's not working. I gone over a couple of times to do the maintenance but hey I got my own tanks and I'm a capitalist you need to pay me to work.

DjRichie
"Don't Panic"

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

No its not wrong, theyre better off in the hands of those who will look after them well.Better you than him by the sounds of it. Its the best option for those particular fish, so Ive no problem with it at all. More specimens will mean that breeding and courtship will involve more competition, and that means healthier offspring should you manage to breed them.

Longhair, you or Cali would be better at this than myself, but I'm paging through azgardens.com and I see that they have these fish for sale. Thought I'd let you guys know so you could email/call/write them and ask them to not!

Listed under Dwarf Rasboras: http://www.azgardens.com/schooling_fish.php

ETA: ALthough, they may not still be selling them as I look more, those were added January of '06, and it doesn't look like anything's been updated on that site since mid-2006 anyway.

Listen! Do you smell that?