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Okay there is a rule to reading this.. by readng this *blah blah blah* you have hereby sworn to not make me feel bad for my current tank set-ups..

But okay on to the serious matters.. Lets tell a story.. I love fish.. well i love animals to tell you the truth especially pets =) so of course i bought a fish tank.. i then bought a bigger one =) (5 gal and 10gal contents which will be discussed latter) i stocked these.. well incredibly ignorantly.. (i believe its called NTS???) but well here are the contents list..

10 Gal- 2 Blue Rams, 1 Panda Cory, 2 Other cories, 1 CAE (still smallish) 4 or so guppies (remember the rules)

5 Gal- 4 Serpae Tetras, 3 Cherry Barbs (please remember the rules)

And in my ignorance i thought these were wonderful wonderful set-ups.. but then i read.. and read and slapped my self and then read some more.. so i have decided to treat my fish right and buy a 29 Gallon and combine the fishies =)

I have plans for this tank and i want to do this right.. My first plan is to but the tank = 29 Gallon from petco (they are having a wonderful sale where its 1$ per Gallon on ALL tanks) so thats 29$ right there. I will then build a stand (althought not so bright with fish.. a good carpenter at least =p) so thats no biggie in cost. Next purchase was going to be a bio-wheel filter of sorts for probably a 30 gallon or maybe a 40 gallon for extra cleanliness if you think thats a good idea. Then comes the good ole play sand,i read some where that there really is no reason to buy "aquarium sand" as long as i clean play sand. Then i will slowly move all my plastics over and then slowly cycle it using the guppies as "cyclers"

Thats basically my plan, i have decorations picked out and everything so thats not really the advice i wish and liveplants arent for me.. (algae EVERYWHERE) what i wish to know is, could i fill up my cory ranks anymore?? and could i add maybe a family (4 or 5) of Neon Tetras??(this will all be done over the process of a month and a half probbaly)

Basically My Plan-

29g Tank
30gallon Bio-Wheel Filter (or 40 if advised)
3 Lower Power Heaters (for better overall heat)
Plastic Plants
Driftwood

and the fishies (in order they will be moved over)

4 Guppies for cycling (they will be brought to a LFS becaus I dont want any breeding anymore.. i felt bad last time)
3 Cories (panda and 2 others)
4 Serpaes
3 Cherries
1 CAE (only if i see algae he may very well be last)
2 Rams (i here if i put them in first they would think they ran the place =P)
**heres where i need the suggestions**
then 2 more pandas and another of the "other" cories to make a lil family??
4-5 Neons??????
1 more Serpae???

Then i swear to you all i would be done and take pride at watchin my beautiful fishies =)

Well let me hear your suggestions =)

PS REMEMBER THE RULES!!!!

Suggested changes:

[1] Sell the Chinese Algae Eater. It doesn't eat algae efficiently despite the name, and as it grows older actually switches to a more carnivorous diet. Plus, it will grow BIG - 12 inches is within its reach. I've seen one 11 inches long at Chester Zoo, and that's put me off having them forever.

[2] Sell the Serpaes. Serpaes are bad tempered and nippy Characins that will make your Rams' life unpleasant if you build up the shoal. Any other fish with trailing fin extensions is going to be a target for them.

[3] Build up your Cherry Barbs to 8 individuals. Do that and you'll probably see them spawning!

[4] Exchange the two "other Corys", and build up your Panda shoal to 8. Pandas are amongst the most avowedly social of all Corys, and will actually pine if they're not given playmates of their own species. Trust me on this one, I've kept them for nearly 4 years and produced three generations of baby Pandas, so I know intimately what these guys like. Their BIG requirements are regularly cleaned gravel (mine get a gravel vac twice per week) and clean water, decent numbers of their own kind (I now have 14 of them in the one aquarium and their madcap frolicking because they're in numbers is a joy to watch) and peaceful companions (which again is another reason to exchange the Serpaes).

So your stocking after those changes would look like this:

8 Cherry Barbs
2 Rams
8 Pandas

At this point, I'd say you have space for up to 10 Neons, or 8 Cardinals, or 8 Lemons (which would make a nice colour contrast!). Final stocking would therefore be:

8 Cherry Barbs
2 Rams
8 Pandas
10 Neons OR 8 Cardinals OR 8 Lemons

If you think four species of fish is too limiting, then I shall direct you to my little editorial piece here, which should go some way toward convincing you that the approach I've taken with your stocking is the way to go, ESPECIALLY with the Panda Corys. In fact, if I were in your shoes, I'd forget having the Neons etc., and go for 16 Pandas, whereupon you will be rewarded with non stop madcap entertainment and the very real possibility that your Pandas, delighted as they will be to be given a big group of their own kind, will do what mine do and spawn at a rate of knots. My Pandas are legendary on this Board for their spawning antics by the way

Believe me, if you haven't seen Pandas spawning, you haven't lived. It's like the Keystone Kops, only at quadruple speed.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I love the ideas but ive grown fond of my 2 "other" cories =( sure i couldnt go like 4 and 4??? or 6 and my 2 others??? I really like them and actually im making it a sand aquarium too mainly for the enjoyment of the pandas and others =P And while yea i have heard about the serpaes being nippy im not too fond of them anyway, they seem to be mean to my cherries in thier but then again they are jammed in there =p

But humm ive just got an idea, how does this sound for the "master plan"???

6 Cherry Barbs
2 Rams
6 Pandas
3 Others
6 Neons
6 Black Phatoms or Harlequins??
2 Ottos (after lots algae growth)

Or is that pushing it??? I do like your idea but i must say imma sucker for seeing all kinds of perty fish swim around in a lil enviroment =) O and about the CAE's!!! who named these fishies??????????? thanks again and maybe ill see some panda "play" of my own sooner or later =p

Thanks a million (im actually going to go buy the tank later today =D)

EDIT: I re read my master plan and i guess the Others could go but really i have grown fond of them =( but please let me know what you think of that please =)

My alteration suggestion to that master plan is:

[1] Make it 8 Pandas and your other Corys;

[2] Drop the Harlequins/Black Phantoms and go with 12 Neons;

[3] Make it 4 Otocinclus.

Otherwise, leave as is.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

=) Thanks so much =)

So (i like restating things for somereason) the whole sha bang would be *dramatic drum-roll* plz..

6 Cherry Barbs
2 Rams
8 Pandas
2 Others
12 Neons
4 Ottos

Evryone else liking that plan?? Seems pretty good to me =) got a nice variation of swim lvl and color =)

Got my Cherries for Red, Rams for like every beautiful color there is, White and Black on my pandas, Mettalic Grey/green and white on my "Other" cories, The neons with nice bright blue/red and silverish, and then the ottos to make sure i can always see my beautiful tank =)

Anyone else got any other ideas they think i would like that would Keep.. well most of the original fish from my other tanks???

hmm...very interesting stocking...
u'r gonna have quite a bit of every thing in a lil place, as u mentioned
good luck with the fishies

So far, so good.

Now, the next question to address is filtration.

I would run with a combination of two filters as the basic setup, an undergravel filter driven by a powerhead, plus an internal canister filter (e.g., Fluval type). With this combination, your fishes should be fine. Before moving on however, two caveats need to be issued, and both of them are centred upon the propensity of Otocinclus to disappear! The first caveat is that your internal canister filter should have some sort of protective mesh or grille over the intake to prevent your Otocinclus from being sucked in. Good quality canister filters already have such a mesh or grille as part of the design: however, you can make a DIY version out of some pieces of perspex and an old medium mesh aquarium net if need be. Second, whenever you remove the powerhead from the undergravel filter uplift tube for maintenance, cap the uplift tube, because I have known Otocinclus to go exploring by swimming down the uplift tube!

Next, substrate. I would choose a rounded particle non-calcareous gravel - one that has NO sharp particles in it. As an example, this thread contains a photo I put up of a sample of my own gravel from the Panda Fun Palace, which gives you an idea of what I use, and which would be eminently suitable for your setup. Bear in mind also that I am fortunate enough to have an LFS who can supply a multplicity of gravel sizes to order, and you may have to scout around to find gravel that matches mine! Scroll down that thread to find my photo (complete with handy ruler for scale).

Third, furnishings. If you go with bogwood pieces (to which you attach Java Ferns and Java Moss), and a few reedy plants such as Vallisneria or an Amazon Sword, this combination (which happens to be the combination deployed in the Panda Fun Palace!) should provide a nice combination of ease of maintenance (because the bogwood can be lifted out temporarily during a gravel vac) and naturalistic appearance. I don't notice my Pandas complaining about the fact that their favourite bogwood boot gets moved for a gravel vac - not given the rate at which they spawn!

This shot is a bit dark but gives you an idea what my setup looks like ...

This shot is somewhat better lighting wise and also illustrates my underwater rainforest quite well ... oh, the string you see at the right hand side is my freeze dried tubifex feeding gizmo - has a lead weight on the end to keep the cubes on the bottom where the Pandas and the Otocinclus can get at them!

Oh, just for reference, I'll also include this shot I took during a water change, illustrating my DIY gravel vac that cost me 50p to make

If you wanted to, by the way, and the budget ran to it, you could also attach a HOB filter to the setup ... with three filters, you should have few problems maintaining water cleanliness in that setup (note, make sure your pipework on the HOB has guard grilles/meshes to prevent fish ingestion!) and your Pandas in particular will enjoy surfing the powerhead bubbles and frolicking like mad in the nice clean water you'll have.

Oh yes, by the way, keep a 'parts bin' full of odds and ends, because you never know when you can press them into service DIY wise for some new gadget to make your aquarium hum even more sweetly!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Wow im likin this website =) so much help aboot it =)

I like your ideas for the filtration but im gonna be honest and say that i dont know much about those types of filters all that well so i'm going to throw this one out there because i have used these types before =p http://www.petco.com/Shop/petco_Product_R_3953_PC_productlist_Nav_222_N_24+112+30+5791_dva_true_sku_989762_familyID_2402.aspx Then again thats only my suggestion and i was thinking 2 20 Gallon filters or maybe one of the 50 Gallon ones because i figured the more the merrier =)

On the substrate thiers some gravel and rock stores around (i live near the cement capital of prolly usa..) so ill see what i can find =)

Thanks again =)

O and im going plastic plants but dont worry im gonna be very creative and use them like thier real and connect them to the logs and such =)

i live near the cement capital of prolly usa

Be VERY careful about using rocks from a source that is used to mine calcium oxide for cement manufacture! Calcium oxide will result in a pretty big upward pH climb in no time ... that's why concrete pools need pre-treatment or sealing before you can put fish in them, the compounds that leach from the concrete are corrosively alkaline ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Hummmm never thought of that =( ill have to ask next time i go (not like i go everyday but still..) and thiers not a mine around here or a quarry or anything its just they fire it all up down the highway a bit (horrible horrible pollution but yea ill have to ask them, but what do you think about those type of filters that were on that link, think they would be worth my while???

I've heard about this piece of equipment before, but never fully researched it until now. It seems like a good idea in principle - culture the bacteria on a rotating spool of culture medium which is exposed to atmospheric oxygen during part of the rotation cycle to increase the efficiency of the bacteria. It looks on the face of it as if it would be a good piece of equipment, but I'd need to know more in depth before committing myself to an unequivocal recommendation.

If I was using one of these, I'd still use an undergravel filter in tandem - belt and braces and all that. That way, if the Bio-Wheel ever malfunctioned, I'd still have a functioning biological filter running while it was being serviced. Then of course, once it was serviced, I'd have a big bed of bacteria to kick start the Bio-Wheel afresh.

By the way, with regard to rocks, the test to perform is as follows. Find a clean glass container large enough to contain the rock, and slowly add battery acid until the rock is completely submerged. The first indication that your rock is, shall we say, 'interesting' is if an effervescent reaction takes place (in other words, it looks like lemonade after you've shaken the bottle then opened the cap). If effervescence appears, this is carbon dioxide being liberated, and means that the acid is reacting with carbonate compounds in the rock. If this happens, then your rock is at best suitable only for Rift Lake aquaria and other aquaria that require hard, alkaline water - do NOT put this rock in a soft, acidic water aquarium!

From this point on, things can get interesting. Even if there is no effervescence, the acid could be reacting with other compounds in the rock - oxides and hydroxides for example. If some of those compounds are compounds of assorted heavy metals (transition metals such as copper and nickel, or heavy metals such as lead) then this will manifest itself in some cases by the liquid in the container becoming increasingly tainted as the reaction proceeds and more of these elements are liberated into solution as metal ions. However, not all of these metals produce coloured solutions - zinc, for example, produces colourless salts in solution. You detect the presence of those by making a separate solution of sodium bicarbonate, and mixing a quantity of the acid reaction solution to a quantity of the sodium bicarbonate solution. If there are heavy metal ions (many of which are toxic to your fishes) in the solution (which is a dead cert if the acid reaction solution is tainted), then these will further react to form carbonates, which are insoluble and form a precipitate on the bottom of the reaction vessel. The moment you see a precipitate settle out, then you know the rock is NOT aquarium safe!

This test isn't foolproof, but it should catch most unsafe rocks out at first base. Take note that for a decent amount of metal ions to enter solution, sufficient for a precipitate to form, the rock should be marinated in the acid for several hours. If the reaction liquid is highly tainted after that, or yields a noticeable precipitate when mixed with sodium bicarbonate solution, discard the rock!

If you have reasonably easy access to the seashore, and that seashore has a shingle beach (basically a beach with large round pebbles instead of sand - some of these pebbles are bigger than your clenched fist) then this is a source of free aquarium safe rocks. Rocks that have been tumbled about in seawater for millennia then washed up are going to be safe, because any minerals that could have been liberated into solution will have been liberated long ago, and the remaining rock surface is effectively inert. You can make a bit of money by loading up a pickup truck with about 200 lbs of shingle pebbles, then selling the surplus as fish tank rocks by the way - at ten cents per rock, you'll soom make quite a bit of loot!



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Hehe i think i might just go a few towns over and go to the only real (non chain) LFS around here (its really not that far but annoying non the less) because doing that test seems trivial when i can just get the right rocks at probably the same price (since i have a feeling the contractors would charge me more if i asked for a lil bit only) and yea i think i'm gonna go with an undergravel filter as well because i'm getting extremly lucky and my friend is wanting to get rid of his tank (been in his garage for a while but has a working hood so works for me because now all i gotta do is the "leak test" and now all that money can be put into the filter and the the undergravel filter as well =)

Thanks for all your help and i have a feeling someone made a lil somethin selling those rocks before =)

YAH!!!! I GOT THE TANK TONIGHT!!!! YAH!!!!

I got a tank and a working hood for FREE!!! (my best friend got it for his gramps 5 years ago but he passed away and it was just sitting in his garage) but now to get the substrate, and start construction of the stand =)

Man im so happy =)

Anyone else got any cool ideas before i start stockin?? (on the simplier side but still i wanna hear it all)

I never saw a use for an undergravel filter. Anything it does can be preformed just as well by a power(hob) filter and with less annoying maintenance requirements. Plus if setting up a reverse flow ugf your going to spend more than just getting 2 power filters. I also dislike internal filters unless using them for a specific purpose since again a power filter will do just as good of job without taking up space in the tank and not requiring you to stick your hand in the tank to get the filter out. Plus alot of the internal filters I've used required some dexterity to remove and refit the media. It's also easier to customize your choice of media in a power filter than an internal and definitely than a ugf. So if you decide say you want to run purigen instead of carbon all it requires is dropping a bag in front of the media cartridge and your good to go. Personally I'd stick 2 power filters on there. I have a penguin 200 and whisper filter rated for a 20g on mine.

Biowheels sound good in theory but aren't all that useful. Unless your really overstocking a tank or keeping very messy fish there is more than enough room in the gravel and on decorations for your bacteria and you shouldn't have any problems with low oxygen levels. They also require frequent rinsing to keep them running. Not to say I dislike them since all of my best filters are penguin but I the biowheel is not the reason I like them. Aquaclears are also very popular good quality power filters with no biowheel maintenance and more media options than the marineland filters.

Okay well i went to petco and the Penguin 200 was on sale for 30 bucks so i went ahead and got that and now im still considering and undergravel filter.. I will probbably get one but theres time to decide that later =)I built the stand and painted it and all and its just great =) it passed the wieght test (me and my dad sat on it)(175 + 240 = more than the tank will)but I think i am probably gonna go with thise set-up right here..

6 Cherry Barbs
2 Rams
8 Pandas
2 Others
12 Neons
4 Ottos

and I think thats all folks =)

Anyone got any ideas the fish that HAVE to be in any ideas you give me are 2 Rams..6Pandas 3 Cherries and 2 Other Corries.. the rest you can inspire me =)

I think you mentioned sand earlier and that noone so far has mentioned you can't use an undergravel filter with sand. Otherwise you just have to make sure you add it before the gravel and be certain to clean it frequently to avoid nitrate build up.

The stock is fine. I don't really like neons and would use black neons but that's just personally preference. I find the black neons with their slightly larger size a bit more entertaining when across the room instead of sitting right next to the tank and they tend to be hardier.

Ah, this brings me back to provenance again.

GOOD Neons are pretty hardy fishes. Neons that have been inbred to the point of near self destruction, on the other hand, are anything but.

If you can find some wild caught ones, chances are that although they'll require more care in acclimatisation than stock that's been bred in an outdoor pond in Singapore, they're more robust genetically.

So far I'm fortunate in that the stock available to me in the UK is relatively good stock.

However, I prefer Cardinals. They hold their colour better under stress, are generally hardier as a species, and in a decent sized group they make a stunning display. I've discovered incidentally that if your aquarium is thickly planted, you might have trouble seeing them unless you have at least one good open water region in the aquarium, because if you put them in an aquarium like mine that's an underwater rainforest, they have a habit of disappearing behind the foliage!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Hi,
Just a couple of comments...
First, your term "sand"...
If you are indeed speaking of sand as most use the term
describing beach sand or sand box sand, where the grain
size is small (0.074-4.75mm), then you cannot use an
under gravel filter (UGF) because the openings (slats)
are too large. The sand would fall through the spaces
to the glass bottom and clog the filter.

If you are just referring to the substrate in a general
term, then the number 2 gravel that is sold in every
Local Fish Store (LFS) is perfect and the UGF will work

Second, the filter that uses "Bio Wheels".
These are excellent filters and work very well.

Virtually every aquarium filter is modeled after your
city sewage treatment plant, or, at least, part of it.
City's have settling or holding areas where the water
passes through gravel consisting of layers of various
size gravel. They all pass water through various types
of media, and they all have tanks where they force air
through the water to oxygenate the water and expose it
to beneficial bacteria. I don't think any filter contains
all the elements of the treatment plant but they do try.

With the Bio-Wheel type filter, the water is pumped into a
chamber where the large "stuff" (fish poop, leaf material,
etc.,) is trapped atop media that could be (your choice)
Carbon, Sponge, or filter floss. Then it passes through
another media, generally smaller in size (trapping even
smaller dirt) and so on (generally three stages of size
entrapment is provided) and lastly it is returned to the
tank by passing over the felt lined plastic paddles of the
bio wheel. The water pressure causes the wheels to turn
and as they turn each paddle is exposed to the air,
briefly, and even more bacteria colonize the felt.

THE main source of bacteria that support the Nitrogen
Cycle is the gravel in the tank. Each grain supports the
colonies and the rougher the grain surface, the more
bacteria it will support. Aquarium filters, do not contain
the bulk of the colonies, and are mainly used for the entrapment
of solids. Aquarium filters need to be cleaned
when they begin to clog. Some of them actually have gages
attached with dials that show their internal pressure so
you know when they need maintenance.

Because the primary source of the bacteria colonies is the
gravel (substrate) and to emulate a part of a city
treatment plant, the UGF was invented. By forcing fresh,
oxygen bearing water through the gravel more of the gravel
gets the oxygen that the bacteria needs and more of the
gravel becomes host to the bacteria. Without water flow
through the gravel, around each grain, only the top few
grains deep support the cycle. Just like with any other
filter, the gravel bed can become clogged. The problem
with the UGF is you have no way of knowing when that
happens as the returns are generally below the surface
and there are no gages to read. So, the gravel must be
vacuumed at some interval (determined by the number of
fish or bio load of the tank). The easiest way is to use
a gravel vacuum, such as the Python brand, each time you
do your regular, weekly, aquarium maintenance. Look at
your tank and mentally divide the unplanted tank into four
sections. Then, each week, vacuum a different section.
That way, in a month, you have vacuumed the entire,
unplanted, tank. By sectioning the tank, you give the
bacteria in the newly vacuumed section time to recover
and regrow. Your maintenance interval should be determined
by the number of fish in the tank, the bio load. The more
fish, or how messy they are when they eat, and how much
waste product they produce should be the governing factors.
If you have a light bio load you could do the vacuuming
once a month, if a heavy bio load, weekly could be
necessary.

Many, depending upon their tanks, will use both the UGF
and an external filter either the Hang on Back (HOB) style
or the Canister style that sits on the floor behind the
tank. In the end the choice is yours and should depend
upon the bio load, but in actuality depends upon how much
money you have to devote to the hobby.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--