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his fish are diring because HE CANT TAKE CARE OF THEM.

i think this guy is kinda dumb...

You're not by any means wrong on the dyed tetra point, but the worth of the fish is another story. Livebearers are in very high supply and low demand; you're lucky he's wiling to take them at all much less pay you some store credit. Yes, fish prices are inflated, but that's because selling fish costs the store so much in overhead. Stores rarely ever make money on the fish themselves; they have to hope to earn a profit with dry goods. The fish prices allow them to come slightly closer to breaking even. The "local fish are bad" thing may be A) his way of shorthanding the issue so he doesn't have to give you the store's receipts to explain the problem, B) probably often true, since lots of people will be bringing in 1cm Platy fry and trying to pass them off as better than the imported fish even though they're not saleable, and C) just because you treat yours well doesn't mean that's normal - livebearers are commonly kept by rank beginners who are probably doing who-knows-what to their water and weakening the fish.


-Molly
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Nice post, Mousling. The LFS owner is more likely to purchase from the wholesaler or commercial breeder than the hobbyist because:
1. He is aware of the fish parameters from the wholesaler/breeder,
2. The wholesaler/breeder will provide credit for a "bad" lot of fish,
3. Consistent supply.

In general retail stores are looking for a "keystone" or 100% mark-up on their overall inventory. Animals, particualrly fish, earn a higher mark-up because:
1. Mortality,
2. Maintenance,
3. Short shelf life.

A hobbyist who approaches the lfs with a limited number of fish and no history should expect:
1. Nominal prices for his product,
2. Store credit.

Would you, as the owner of a store, pay top dollar to a person who offers you a one time sale for a product of unknown quality that has the potential to die within days? If oyu answer that question as yes, reconsider your answer when you realize that you have no recourse to the seller. That is, tough luck, you bought them.

If you had wanted to be considered as a long term supplier, you may want to:
1. bring a sample of the fish to display to the owner to demonstrate the quality of the product,
2. offer the initial fish at a discount to the owner so that he could observe their hardiness and saleability,
3. accept store credit with the understand8ing that it could be converted to cash as you build a relationship with the owner.

Or you could handle it your way and ensure that you will never be able to sell or trade livestock with the owner.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

very well said, LittleMousling.

i believe a motive for you to give your platys away should be based on finding good homes for them rather than making as much money as possible.

and by no means am i trying to imply that your platys aren't healthy, but not everyone treats their fish tanks the same. There are those who do minimal water changes and neglect their tanks, and there are those who make an effort and do EVERYTHING to keep their tanks happy. There's no way of telling who's who, so to deny a high price to anyone who wants to give up their platys to the store owner would be the best option based on his perspective.

Well, the reason I wanted to sell them to this particular store is because they keep their water in their tanks in incredible shape, and "appear" to work hard to keep their fish healthy.
I believe my fish are worth at least 1 dollar each because I can get a buck each for them at any other pet store!! Why he thinks his store should be offering pittance for fish I dont know.
My other store doesnt keep the water quite as good, but they will give me 1 dollar CASH each or store credit.
Another store will give me 2.50 for a pair. So I dont think I am wrong in feeling my fish are worth that.
Now, dont get me wrong, its not about the cash really, its the sheer effort and time I have put into these fish that make them worth more to me. To me, him saying he will only give 15- 30 cents each for them, to me, is him just justifying that if they (the store) kills them, its OK cuz they only paid 15 cents each.


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If it's about the money, take them to the other store. If it's about the health of the fish, choose based on that. But once you sell them it's out of your hands. And he doesn't, again, have to offer anything at all - just because other stores are willing to doesn't mean he has a matching demand or a lacking supply of those fish. His job is to sell you fish; buying them isn't part of what a store is supposed to do, it's a friendly service they provide at their own discretion. Why should he pay for an unknown quantity that could potentially endanger his existing stock (not you, but unknown fish in general) when he has plenty of cheap livebearers coming in from a known source? Livebearers are in extreme supply and surprisingly low demand (after all, people come back and buy more tetras, barbs, cichlids - but you never really need to bump up your livebearer numbers). Sorry, but he's not in the wrong on this one - you're lucky he'll take them at all.

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

[font color="#800080"]Ok, so I went into the LFS yesterday to get a 10 pack of frozen bloodworms packs, and got talking to the guy there to see if he was interested in buying some of my orange sunburst platys off me, so i can make some room for more guppies, and he said and I qoute "well honestly, and no offence, but we dont usually buy locally bred fish because all locally bred fish are crap". Supposedly they buy them, and these fish all die within the week or within a few days time, so they no longer buy local fish. I asked how many local breeders they have purchased fish from, and he said "probably around a dozen or so, none had good fish."
Anyway, so he said he would buy my platies for fifteen to thirty cents each, and wouldnt do cash, only instore credit and not credit for livestock. And I know he sells platys for 4.99 each. So being all offended, I think I had a right, I told him that was pretty funny to hear from a LFS guy who sold dyed white skirt tetras. "Fruit Tetras". I then told him that I couldnt sell him my platys, as I feel each one is worth at the very least 1 dollar trade in credit, and it should be applicable to livestock or whatever I wanted to use it for. (I know a different store which will give me a dollar each).
It just really gets my goat that he thinks locally bred /Hobbyist bred fish are crap. We feed our fish the best foods (he knows we buy them there a lot of times), we vary our fishes diets, we keep them meticulously clean, and the fellow who recently came out and bought some of my platys, remarked that in his 10 years of keeping fish he had never seen platys as large or healthy looking as mine, and that the whole of my fish seemed "absolutely amazingly healthy". I am sure every other person on here who raises quality young fish would agree, most locally/hobbyist bred fish, are well raised and quality fish. Myself, from now on, will perhaps never return to this store, and not just because of the insults but because of the continuation of the sale of dyed fish even after I brought them printed literature on dyed fish.
Anyway, the moral of this story if there is one, would probably be that we as hobbyists should realize that just because we dont produce mass numbers of fish for cheap doesnt mean our fish are worthless. In fact, the effort we spend and time and love that goes into our baby fish shows just how much more they are worth than the mass produced "cheap fish", and we should be proud of it, and stick up for that against people who see these creatures as just a cash flow worth nothing but 500%+ profit to them.
[/font]

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I've seen a price list that one of my LFS's orders from. At the time I had swordtails to sell and they got them for 35 cents. Of course that didn't include the shipping, I have no idea what that would work out to per fish.

I sold them the swords for a quarter each and they got $2.99 a piece. I thought about it and they have to have that kind of markup. If they pay their people $7.50 an hour each one would have to sell 3 swordtails an hour to cover thier wages.

Mike

And hiring people isn't even the biggest expenditure, although it's certainly a big one.

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

I was just told by a lady at another store today, who gets her fish from the same source as the other store, that they pay wholesale prices of 75 cents for a platy. She said she is willing to pay 1 dollar for locally bred ones because they are healthier. She agreed with me that him offering 15 cents a fish was ridiculous and rubbish. I still think you people are missing the point that my fish may be "crap" but the dyed skirt tetras and his belly flop guppies are "not crap".
I realize he has to make a living, but I have also been told by several "fish shop owners" that the only person in the business who doesnt make money is the employees. The owners make massive amounts of money, and that it is often from the markup of fish. Purchase 100 fish for 1 dollar each, sell these fish for 10 dollars each, thats 100 times profit. Thats why he can afford a Lexus, a suit, and 3 other pet stores! Nope they sure dont make money at all.
Besides, maybe us Hobbyists need to make a little money too. We spend so much feeding our fish high quality expensive foods, these fish should at least help a little to feed themselves.
I just wish more local people would buy from me. I really dont want my fish going the pet store route at all. But I only have so much room for fish, and in an already way overstocked tank I need to do something. Unfortunately the public just doesnt provide enough interest. Sure wish there was more local interest.


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oh without a doubt, pretty much anyone who has a business whether its pet stores or not, are mnore than likely going to be making money. And more than likey a lot of it, and i think its pretty much a general all round thing that its only the employees that dnt make money, we only work to make them rich I cant decide which would make more profit the fish or the dry goods... Dnt forget that out of the profit from a sale of one fish has to come all of the living costs of that one fish.

He shouldnt be selling died fish. Full Stop.

Have you thought about setting up a partnership with one of the local fish stores? Or perhaps placing small ads in local papers when you have fish ready for sale? I was walking back from the pub the other night and just happened to notice three fish tanks on the estate down the road from me, (glowing nicely in the front rooms) you might be suprised how many ppl have tanks and want fish, after all by the sounds of it, a number of lfs' are making money!

The owners of my local "small chain" (four stores, three cities) make almost nothing, especially in the last few years. Is there a huge markup on fish? Yes, but there has to be. Think about movie theaters - those concession prices are absurd, but ever notice that movie theaters where no one buys food routinely shut down? One theater in my town has shut down and been bought and reopened about 8 times in the last ten years, because they cater to a student crowd that only buys tickets. In the same way, a fish store really never profits on fish, because maintaining them is so prohibitively expensive. By raising the prices, they sometimes manage to break even on fish so they can focus on the dry goods that do (sometimes, hopefully) make money.
Most small pet stores shut down - how many are around you, and how long have they been in business? My area has gained three and lost five in the last decade or so. If other stores are telling you the one owner is a schmuck, I'm not surprised; they, like he, will do anything to keep that foothold, because aquarium stores so often fail. Seriously - think about it from his point of view. He may be doing something different, but he's not doing anything wrong (except with the dyed fish). Maybe the other stores have a greater demand for platies. Maybe he has a more constant supply. Maybe he's had a few horrible experiences with local fish that infected whatever they were put in with (most stores, good or bad, just can't maintain much in the way or quarantine facilities). Maybe he's had too many people come in with newborn livebearers trying to pass them off as saleable adults. Give the guy a break: it's his business, and that business is selling fish, not buying them at top dollar. As you said, wholesale on platies in around $.75. It's not reasonable to expect that, much less more; it makes perfect sense that on unknown fish he's not willing to pay his normal wholesale price, since he can get all the known, large plates he wants at that price.

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

To be honest IME you're lucky to find an LFS that will even take livebearers. I have good relationships with my LFS's and will occasionally sell them fry when my fish spawn, but for the most part those are stores that have been open for 15 years that I visit at least once a month.

Any time I have sold any fish, generally the rules are:

1. No livebearers. Unless they are the most amazing adult show guppies ever and they can mark them up past $10 a fish, they don't take them. Period. Not even for free.

2. Unless they know you REALLY well you're going to get srore credit, and you're only going to get pennies. That's because they don't know the quality of your fish. Yes, wholesalers and fish farms are evil, I agree, but what tehy do offer is cheap consistent product. Most LFS's would rather take fish from a REPUTABLE (underline reputable) local breeder, but it takes time to build a reputation.

3. If it's really common, chances are they're not gonna buy it. Usually there has to be some selling point that they can market to other (read : newbie) costumers to convince them to buy anything from you at a higher cost. If they do buy anything common, you're going to get peanuts for it.

4. Like LM was saying the fish have to be of marketable size. What I usually do is meet directly with the owner of my LFS (don't even bother talking to employees, most of them are just given a script), I bring the fish I would like to trade with an idea of how much they are worth in private sale and negotiate with the owner.

The most I have managed to get from an LFS for a fish was $25 for a large fancy goldfish, which they then sold for over $100. Markups keep them in business.

If you are negotiating with an LFS owner it's important to dress nicely in sophisticated clothing and make a nice impression. Call to make an appointment with the owner, bring just a few of your healthiest fish and be prepared to explain how you care for them. I have even made deals with LFS's to buy medications, foods and other supplies from them regularly in return for discounts and competitive trade in for fish.

I have managed to sell a few livebearers in the past to LFS's but they were, and have to be, spectacular, and the owner of the shop has to think so. The livebearers I was selling were top notch, and he was able to sell them as such, because of their obvious distinction from the fish farm stock. To be honest I wasn't expecting to make any money off of them, I just used the earnings to buy foods and things to maintain my tanks.

At one point I even made a deal with the LFS to take in juvenile fish at a discounted rate and trade them back in at a more marketable size for store credit. I enjoyed taking care of the fish and the earnings I was making helped, again, to pay for supplies to run my own tanks.

You can't just expect to walk into an LFS with no local reputation and start making deals with them, it takes a lot of time and effort but in the end it really pays off. Different owners will all have different ways of running their businesses, you just have to shop around and find one that you like.

Oh yeah, if you have a local aquarium club, JOIN IT. Sometimes flashing that membership card is like instant reputation because it shows you have more than just a casual interest in fish. Also, clubs are the best place to meet other locals who might already have trade relationships with local shops that can put in a good word for you. And do I have to say . . . Aquarium Club auctions RULE! :88)

I was always under the impression that tank raised specimens, as opposed to shipped, were more sought after.