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Found this article today, just thought I'd share it. Perhaps if you know someone who mistreats their fish or such, and says the fish can't feel pain, well here's a scientific article that proves it here

As fish lovers, we already know this though

i thought that was a given already is it not?

i really didn't think that people didn't know that animals feel anything.

i thought that was a given already is it not?

Ya, me too.

*Kristin*

I would think or hope most people would know that fish feel pain. Like any other living animal they all feel some sort of pain. If they didn't feel pain why would they run when another fish nips at it. they must feel something.

All in all I belive that all animals feel some sort of pain.

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Live life to it's fullest
Who knows what tomorrow holds

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That link doesn't seem to work for me. It looks like a link to a newspaper, and requires subscription to access the article. Do you have the reference to the actual scientific paper, as no scientist would write a newspaper article, unless there was also a peer-reviewed paper coming out in a journal. That reference to the journal article is what I'd like to see.

Also, I think that a scientist would cringe at the 1st poster's word choice. "Prove" is a very strong word, as until the fish can tell us directly, this question will never be proven. "There is strong evidence for..." is the much more accurate representation of was a good scientist would say.

It wasn't the actual article, but a news article talking about it.

I also don't have the actual article from the link, but I found this article from the BBC, a more reliable source. The article is about the same research from the same scientists as the one I posted before.


EDIT: Looked at the BBC's article's date, and it's 2003, maybe its not the same article, or further was built on it, I don't know . Anyone who read the original link I posted remember more about it?

EDIT 2: I'm on an edit roll...here's the article the BBC talks about. It's a .pdf by the way.

http://www.lpda.pt/vegetarianismo/FishesPain.pdf

Taken from http://www.afga.org/Fishing/fishpain.htm.


LONDON - Anglers rest easy. Fish can't feel pain, the largest study into piscine neurology has concluded.

An academic study comparing the nervous systems and responses of fish and mammals has found that their brains are not sufficiently developed to allow them to sense pain or fear.

The study is the work of James D. Rose, a professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wyoming, who has been working on questions of neurology for almost 30 years.

He has examined data concerning animals and their responses to pain and stimulus from scores of studies collected over the last 15 years.

His report, published in the American academic journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, has concluded that awareness of pain depends on functions of specific regions of the cerebral cortex that fish do not possess.

Rose, 60, said that previous studies which had indicated that fish can feel pain had confused "nociception" -- responding to a threatening stimulus -- with feeling pain.

"Pain is predicated on awareness," he said. "The key issue is the distinction between nociception and pain.

"A person who is anaesthetized in an operating theatre will still respond physically to an external stimulus, but he or she will not feel pain. Anyone who has seen a chicken with its head cut off will know that, while its body can respond to stimuli, it cannot be feeling pain."

Rose said he was enormously concerned with the welfare of fish, but that in the wake of his findings, campaigners should concentrate on ensuring that they were able to enjoy clean and well-managed rivers and seas.

Despite the new findings, a spokesman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, which has spent millions on a anti-angling campaign, said: "We believe that fishing is barbaric. Of course animals can feel pain.

"They have sensitivity, if only to avoid predators."

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Not trying to start a heated discussion, and I realize I kinda feel weird posting this which contradicts what I first posted. As much as I would like to believe that fish can't feel pain, I still think they do, and just curious what you guys think about it.

People have a tendancy to anthropomorphize things they're attached to. I don't believe for a second they can feel pain. I love my fish, don't get me wrong, but I can't step past the simplicity of thier brains and nervous-system to believe they do something more than react to a stimulus. A lot of people present anecdotal evidence contrary to my belief, but that's just personal accounts of a non-scientific nature. I think that we always need to be careful when our own opinions seem not to match up with science. However, just because they don't feel pain doesn't make it right to flush a live one down the toilet or something like that.

The fundamental problem with analysis of pain in species unrelated to us is that there is no accurate typification of what constitues pain in relation to the tactile sensation of the animal. We cannot be sure whether pain of "intense nervous signals" is interpreted by the animal as pain because there are both learned, interpretive, and instinctive intelligence prerequisites that are not fully understood. We are basically limited to monitoring electrical activity and theorising about it.There is no definitive proof except except that we know almost all animals including even microscopic creatures exhibit reactions to external stimuli. Even with additional research most scientists are unable to break a level of interpretive science that would give us a true empathic sense of what it is to be a certain animal experiencing a certain nerve response. On average the most intense signals are probably interpreted as pain, in one form or another. If animals experience such intense signals it is not for us to ascertain or state what we believe they can feel when the readings are juxtaposed against our own readings, which may be completely different. I think it is sufficient to say that most creatures either consciously or subconsciously avoid the damagethat causes such signals and despite the fact that we can metaphysically experience pain of a different level to many less sentient or self aware creatures than ourselves, it is not for us to say accurately that we experience "more" pain. We dwell on the theory of pain, and we tie it to our personal experience often in an emotional context.Most mammals will do this too, but equally determined individuals, including humans can conquer pain with force of will. Some people actually enjoy pain.

I think what we see in such documentary evidence as previously contributed says less about the science of pain and more about the personal proclivities for decision making in the eye of the beholder, or in this case the scientist. We are not in a position technologically to be able to state categorically on the exact nature of how any given nerve signal is recieved and interpreted to any given individual even in our own species. I think it is suffice to say that intense nervous reactions to pain are ritually avoided by about 99% of all creatures from protozoa up, and that is good enough for me to help my pets avoid damage and the experience that goes with it. I cant tell if its pain like I fell pain, but that doesnt matter. We try to give the animals what they want , and if thats the avoidance of intense nerve signals than I say we give it to them.

Fish have shown us that they can learn tasks, retain memory, many of them even change colour to show an emotional state, so when someone tells me that they cant feel pain I tend to think that they overestimate the evolutionary level of advancement required to feel pain, and underestimate the intelligence of said fish.

Frankly id rather err on the side of cation, because no-one knows for sure, and probability is with me on this one, even if science hasnt caught up. Id rather be thought of as a cautious person than someone who underestimates the needs of another or the empathy required to give them what they desire. For me to underestimate the suffering of another would be arrogant, and positively evil. Humans have a tendancy to think they are superior , and while we are well advanced, to underestimate the complexity of creatures that have often a much bigger evolutionary history than we do, would be a mistake.

Over recent years there have been some simply astounding discoveries about reptilian intelligence, with almost every species now rating a higher iq than thought possible, and I wouldnt be surprised if as science advances a similar renaissance about fish intelligence was to happen as well. As with many things its our perception of others that is the problem. Its the ever present condition of human arrogance.

Personally I think just about any animal much over a few millimetres long can experience pain in a sense tangible enough to be convincing for my purposes,the minimul size requirement to having a full nervous system and a decent sized brain being the only limitation, but I couldnt say I have any empirical evidence either for or to the contrary, but all the same im pretty sure. We still cant logically prove our own true sentience outside of a personal perspective to anyone else, and yet we still know it to be true. Basically I wouldnt rush to be convinced by any given hack scientist that comes along.Were not talking true science in this field. Too much of it is still only theory.

Classic catholicism would say that animals dont have souls, and complete agnostics like myself would say either everything or nothing does, but thats the level of fatuity a lot of scientists carry with them in their studies. The study of pain is entirely interpretive.Until we have more conclusive results we just have to roll with the odds, and the odds are, most things feel tangible pain and have at least a limited ability to pput the experience into the correct context. Just remember a huge amount of research scientists have a great deal of trouble with objectivity and networking their discoveries against other factors from other fields, and thusly take em all with a pinch of salt until such time as you can get a bigger overview of events.

Hi,
IMO, The sensation of pain is something that I think every living organizm has. I think it is a feeling or sensation
that every living organism developes as a form of self
protection. What constitutes pain is probably
different across the animal kingdom but I believe it
"tells" the creature that it is in danger.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

There is some research in the literature that has been suggesting more and more that fish do have the anatomy and psychology to feel pain, mainly in direct opposition to Prof. Rose's opinions.

Oidtmann B, and Hoffman RW. "Pain and suffering in fish" BERLINER UND MUNCHENER TIERARZTLICHE WOCHENSCHRIFT, vol 114, issue 7-8, jul-aug 2001. pages 277-282.

Here is the abstract of that article "The question on the capability of fish to feel pain and of suffering are still subject of discussion nowadays. In the article presented, the information available in the literature to date is summarised. based on this knowledge, the conclusion is drawn that fish are capable of feeling pain and that they are able to suffer in the sense of the word as used in the German animal welfare law."

Yue, Moccia and Duncan, Applied Animal Behavior Science 2004, talks about training trout, and their response to fear.
From Yue et al. 2004:

Although the term ?fear? is used in everyday vernacular to describe the negative affect that
most animals are assumed to feel during, or in anticipation of, some frightening stimulus,
this term is more cautiously used today when referring to fish. This is partly due to the disbelief,
by some, that fish have the capability to experience conscious feelings. Rose (2002)
believes that conscious experiences like fear and pain are neurological impossibilities, due
to the lack of a neocortex in fish?the presumed place where consciousness dwells in higher
vertebrates. He therefore proposed that behavioural responses to noxious stimuli are separate
from psychological experiences (of fear for example)?behavioural responses to frightening
or aversive stimuli are merely reflexive responses and are not accompanied by a negative
feeling. Nonetheless, the term ?fear? has been widely used to describe fish behaviour for
some time (Pinckney, 1967; Gallon, 1972; Huntingford, 1990; Ledoux, 1990; Noakes and
Baylis, 1990). Others have put forth the idea that fish derive conscious experiences through
some mechanism other than the neocortically based consciousness of humans and other
highly evolved mammals (Verheijen and Flight, 1997). Recent anatomical, physiological,
neuropharmacological and behavioural data suggest that fish are likely to feel subjective
experiences, like fear, in much the same manner as tetrapods. A full review of
this evidence is beyond the scope of this paper, but briefly, the major argument lies in
the fact that the neuroanatomical structure and function between fish and higher vertebrates
are more similar than previously thought (Rakic and Kornack, 2001; Chandroo et al.,
2004).

Here is the reference to the Chandroo et al. article:
Title: Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress
Author(s): Chandroo KP, Duncan IJH, Moccia RD
Source: APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE 86 (3-4): 225-250 JUN 2004


One of the more interesting points is that Rose wrote his articles for the fish farming industry (and is often cited by sport fishermen websites, too) and the conclousions he draws supports their pratices. Is there a chance that the funding is driving the results of the research? Or, is it a question that the research agreed, and then got the funding? The former is far too often the case on issues like gun control or the affects of global warming.

Either way, it is fair to say that this is a very open debate, and even the most recent articles (that I have, 2004) say that there is much more experimentation that will need to be done to more definitively answer this question.

Anything with pain receptors and nervous system will process the stimuli of pain.

But if the pain receptors and the nervous system is not the same as ours, and the fish cannot tell us directly what it is feeling, you cannot say for sure what is occurring. You can infer, and make educated guesses, but I really don't think it is fair to say it as cut-and-dried as "Anything with pain receptors and nervous system will process the stimuli of pain."

I would really like to see some brain scans of fish put through various stimuli, but I know that this is probably a long way off. The fish either has to agree to wear a helmet or stay really, really still, neither are very easy tasks. Plus, you are dealing with somewhat smaller creatures than humans, so that's additional complications. Finally, the brain structure of fish cannot have been as extensively studied as humans', so the results are going to require lengthy and possibly ambiguous interpretation.

I only say it will process the stimuli of pain.
But in what form, and what will be the result of process I did not mention.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3673

I think some kind of experiment has been done.
Have a read.

Yes, some kind experiments have been done. 1) that article you linked is again, not a scientific one, it is released to the press. It doesn't talk about what kind of experiments were done 2) the articles I cited above were more recent than that link (2003 yours, 2004 mine). and 3) I was talking about future experiments because I have read the literature up to date and no one had done those kind of experiments (brain scan) that I know of to date.

Some of the experiments that have been done include shocking or poking or frightening the fish (like by showing a silhouette of a predator) and observing the reaction. This includes putting sensors in the muscles, but not the brain. Also, dissections of dead fish have been done for comparative anatomy studies. I'd like to see something done where monitoring of an active brain could be done, but there are some great difficulties that I mentioned in my above post.

Um....now I begin to wonder if the brain of fish even does anything in response.
It could be just a relex arc.

Receptor picks up something, signal sent up to the spinal cord, then comes back to the effector by passing the brain completely.

Too bad I major in medical microbiology instead of nervous system.