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Well how about I take the hit in the wallet and find out for everyone? I'll post my results here so people in the future will know if r/o water is really all it's cracked up to be.

Last edited by john.stone at 26-Nov-2004 11:59

John,

You need to look at all of your water parameters not just pH. It would be good to know your hardness in GH and in KH. It would also be beneficial to know the conductivity of your water in microsiemens.

General Hardness or GH is the measure of calcium (Ca++) and magnesium ions (Mg++) dissolved in water. General Hardness is measured with a GH Test Kit. Carbonate Hardness, also known as KH, refers to the concentration of bicarbonate (HCO3-) and carbonate (CO3--) dissolved in water. Carbonate Hardness is measured with the KH Test Kit.

Calcium and magnesium carry a positive charge and form "ion pairs" with negatively charged ions like bicarbonate, forming calcium bicarbonate and magnesium bicarbonate; Ca(HCO3)2 & Mg(HCO3)2.

Depending upon your level of KH, you may find it extremely difficult to reduce the pH in your aquaria with experiencing "bounce". A high KH will cause your pH to rebound upwards after you force it down. The "bounce" will wreak havoc on your fish.

A better measure for you may be conductivity. Many discus breeders are moving toward conductivity measurement and downplaying pH. A reading of <300ms is great for you and discusaholics look for 150ms or less.


Last edited by Bob Wesolowski at 30-Nov-2004 20:33

__________
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I still think either R/O water , or Peat/Driftwood are in order to lower the PH.
At first I didnt like the yellowy-brown water, but as my plants grow and my fish get more colorful, the tannicy colored water grows on me. In fact after I do a water change, the clearness of the water bothers me now! I like that golden water I guess. Seems more natural somehow.
Aside from peat and driftwood, reverse osmosis would seem the way to go.
Keep us informed on how it works out John Stone, it would be interesting to follow your attempt.


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Because RO water is so devoid of all impurities its pH can be greatly affected by the minute impurities that might be present. So much so, that even repeated tests may not come up with the same answer. By definition the pH of pure water is 7.0, but the tiniest drop of something acidic can cause it drop to 5 quickly, or a drop of some original alkaline water can bring it back to 8 or 9.

It has no buffering capability, so it will fluctuate wildly.

But Cory Addict is right, just mixing it with your tap water, the best you could achieve is 7.0. You cannot jump the acid/base difference unless you add a base/acid respectively. The CO2 is probably the better idea, the acidity of the dissolved CO2 should be enough to lower the pH the point you want.

Last edited by Bignose at 29-Nov-2004 19:40

I've already orderd the r/o unit ...

I would add something like that... if it didn't turn the water brown... I don't dig that one bit.

Bensaf, good point about adding CO2, I didn't even think of that! :%)

Anyway, john. . . most soft water fish (like neons) will appreciate the addition of tannic acid. Just ask my ram:





Ok anyway, the addition of tannic acid by way of peat or driftwood lowers pH and softens water at the same time by reacting with basic compounds in your water. Even if you DO go with an RO unit, I highly reccommend the addition of some sort of tannin-y substance. Your fish will love you for it, for some reason they are just a lot happier with it IME. You'll be looking at brighter colours, more activity, and a more natural looking tank. It's amazing what a chunk of wood can do for you. [/font]

Let's just wait for the great and wise DRO .

I'm gonna have to disagree with natalie on this one, have you ever tested pure r/o water? pH is like 5, if not less.

Since RO water is (basically) pure water, how can it have an acidic pH? Water is the base for the pH scale, so pure water has a pH of 7.

Please explain, Tim.

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John,

If you are willing to take a hit in the wallet (you seem to be going all out with this tank!) and you mentioned in an earlier post you were buying a new light set up that will bring up your WPG substantially, why not consider a Co2 set-up ? I've no idea how much an RO unit goes for and how that would compare to a co2 set up. But getting your Co2 up to 20-30ppm would reduce your pH quite a bit. By how much would depend on your Kh level and some calculating with a Kh/pH chart. But may be worth considering and you can use the new lights and go flat out on a planted tank.

Admittedly this will ramp up the maintenance needed and may not be the way you want to go just now.

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I don't like the idea of adding peat... because adding peat doesn't remove anything... it just adds more acid which I don't think is optimal... I think the fish can tell if you're just adding more and more acid instead of taking minerals out to get a good ph...

[edit]
I've PMed DRO about it, I figure he has one .

Last edited by john.stone at 26-Nov-2004 15:30

Maybe we could ask a salty that actually has an RO unit...

Or you could toss some peat in your filter and forget about it.

My aquarium is full of fish that would appreciate water with a pH of about 6.5-6.8, the problem is my water likes to stay at about 7.6-7.8 and if I want to have any hope of breeding these little darlings, I'm going to need to fix my water. Not only does the ph need to come down, but I suspect some agent in the water thats slightly agitating the fish's skin somewhat.

I've been told it would be bad to do water changed with pure r/o water, but I'm not clear on why, is it mineral deficiency? Or...?

If I can't use pure r/o water on my aquarium, what mix of tap and r/o water should I use to be safe?

Last edited by john.stone at 26-Nov-2004 02:01

Reverse osmosis water and tap water, coming from the same source can have very minimal differences in pH (or so I was told). The semipermeable membrane used in RO allows many things to flow through--namely gases, while it blocks ions from diffusing. Therefore, say, if you have very few dissolved gases (especially C02) in the water coming out of your tap, then there will be little carbonic acid produced, and the pH should stay nearly the same. De Ionized water, on the other hand, is the real pure stuff. All trace elements otherwise found in RO water are totally removed. Thus, you get your pH in at a stable 7.0. That is, until you open the cap.





Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 26-Nov-2004 11:19

That's what I was hoping fallout. I thought I remembered it being acidic and not neutral, because I figure that reverse osmosis would be really good at getting rid of minerals but not so much at getting rid of acid. Anyway... I'm probably completely wrong about that, but still! My fish will have acidic water!...

*evil neon breeder laugh*

Thanks again guys, much appreciated.

fallout, read my post, i said your only suppost to use it every other week with weekly water changes.

that means one week you use RO the other week you use regular water.

sure vict, and what happens when you eventually dilute out all the minerals and electrolytes in the tank?

I'm gonna have to disagree with natalie on this one, have you ever tested pure r/o water? pH is like 5, if not less.

Yeah vict... umm... yeah...

I'm planning to do 10% 50/50 water changes every other day untill the aquarium is how I like it.

Last edited by john.stone at 26-Nov-2004 05:38

i know im going to get yelled at by rude members.. but

your only suppost to do like a WC with R/O water every other week if you do big changes.

Yes, R/O units strip the water of everything ecept 99.9% of water.

If you only do 25% water changes, you can do R/O water anyways (most units make about 10 gallons a day)

That's awesome tryst and Cory Addict thanks a bunch .

Also, because PO water is just water and nothing else, using even pure RO water will only bring down your pH to 7.

If you want it lower than that, you are going to need to introduce an acidic material (driftwood, peat, etc).

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.