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This should maybe be posted in the Water Quality forum, but I've got a few issues linked in to this that I would appreciate help and advice on.

I've got a 29G tank, current stocking is:
10 Neons
1 BN
7 Corydoras Sterbai
1 Botia Sidthimunki (would have been moved to a 2nd tank with his friends but has proved uncatchable)
1 DG
2 Kuhli's

I've become interested in Apisto's and would like to add a pair - first question, would they be OK in this stocking?

I was at my LFS today, to try and learn a bit more about Apisto's and I was told that they need a pH of 6.5-7.0, and that I wouldn't be able to keep them in my tapwater which is a pH of 8. They treat the water in the LFS tanks that they're in, so even if I ignored the LFS advice, they would need a fair bit of acclimatising to go into my tank.

I would quite like to bring my pH down to 7, not only to keep Apisto's, but I think my current fish would prefer the lower pH (certainly according to all of the profiles, anyway). I'm still interested in doing this, even if the answer to the first question is "No room for more fish".

My next question (and the more important one), is there an easy way to do it? I did read an article on this site all about monitoring your buffer capacity and lots more besides which I didn't really understand, and I thought if I go through that, then I'll just be asking for trouble. I did find this product from Seachem:

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/neytralRegulator.html

Which seems very straightforward. This is the kind of level of tampering that I think I should be trusted with. If we start talking about CO2 injectors etc then we are getting a bit beyond my current capabilities (and my wallets capabilities!). I'm quite happy to try and find a level of RO water, or chemical to add at water change, but beyond that, to be honest I think I'm just going to cause unnecessary stress / deaths to my fish.

Any thoughts? Or am I best to just live with my pH of 8 and accept that I can't keep certain fish and breeding is going to be difficult?

p.s. I know I'll need some info on my gH and kH, but I haven't got tests for those at the moment (will get them this week), any advice you can give me I'll take but realise that it is dependant on my hardness.

Hi,
Good questions and a good posting.

First, a few questions...
Is your water from the tap, after 24 hours of standing
in a clean glass (no kitty spit, or dog drool added)
truly at 8.0? Or, is the water in the tank that high
in pH? If the tank is at 8.0 and the water is somewhat
lower, what do you have in the tank that is affecting the
pH? Rocks, or the "wrong" type of gravel would be doing
that.

My concern is that LFS's rarely spend the money to adjust
their tank water. What they get out of the tap is what
they usually use. Are you that far removed from
your LFS that you are on different water systems?

More help can be had once you have your other test results
this week.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi

My tank doesn't alter the pH. I've measured it straight from the tap, and also from the tank - and there is no difference.

I appreciate the concern over the LFS, but I am tempted to believe them (maybe I'm too trusting though) - they are often voted as one of the best fish stores in the country by PFK magazine over here. Their exact words were that they "just take the edge off it to bring it down to around 7.2". I'm not sure what they do to bring it down (didn't ask), but we are on the same tap water.

I'll post kH and gH as soon as I can get the test kits.

Right, back from the LFS with the Nutrafin GH/KH test kit. As I thought, we have very hard water here, although my tank does do something to reduce the readings (driftwood???).

Anyway the readings are:
Tap water - GH 380ppm, KH 280
Tank water - GH 340, KH 200

Do those readings seem sensible? The KH seems very high compared to when I've paid attention to other peoples readings (the instruction book with the kit says above 125 is very high).

I've also had a little look at RO systems, I found one for £60, would that be a useful investment? Do they need to be constantly attached to the tank/water mains, or can I just attach them to my taps to treat water during my water changes and store them in a cupboard inbetween?

I was looking at my 2nd tank yesterday, which contains my Galaxy Rasboras, and they seemed to be displaying mating behaviour, one of the males was definitely 'dancing' around one of the females. If I can get my pH down, I'd love to give those guys a chance to breed (I presume my current pH is not really conducive to their breeding).

Any help gratefully received.

Hi,
Last things first. If the Male is acting like that then
the water as it is, is just fine. Messing with it now
could knock the edge off so to speak.

As far as the water is concerned - Yeah, your fish are
swimming in "liquid rock" so to speak. Essentially,
untreated, your water is ideal for Rift Lake Cichlids,
and goldfish. You can dilute the water with an RO
system. The "trick" is to do it a bit at a time. You
will be making some very large changes to the water
chemistry and you should do it slowly so the fish can
gradually acclimate. I'd do a 10% water change and use
the RO water as the replacement water. Wait 24 hours
to allow for through mixing, and then test the water again.
If it is a small change, then wait a week and do another
10% change. If it is a large change, then I'd wait two
weeks for the next RO water change.

To figure out how much RO water you would need, I would get
a 10 gallon bucket or tank and fill it with tap water and
add an air stone or filter to circulate the water.
Wait 24 hours and test. Remove 10% (1 gallon) and replace
that gallon with one of RO water. Wait 24 hrs & test.
See how much of a difference a 10% change makes. Then use
that information on your larger tank.

RO systems work on osmosis and require that you connect
the unit to a pressurized water source (the tap) and run
the water through the unit. As the water passes through
the filter the membrane will let some of the raw water
through it (filtered) and it will come out the filter
output. You can use different membranes (different size
pore openings) to filter out different compounds or
elements. Generally it takes several gallons of tap water
to produce ONE gallon of RO water. The membranes have to
be cleaned regularly (follow the directions that come with
the RO unit) and periodically replaced.

Hope this helps...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks for the reply Frank, it does help, but I just want to check that I'm understanding this correctly before I go ahead with anything. Am I right in thinking:

If I buy an RO unit (or RO water from the LFS) that with a little experimentation, I can work out what ratio RO water/tap water I should use in my weekly water change to bring my pH down gradually and then keep it steady at the desired pH? That nothing more would be needed? That sounds like it is within my capabilities. I appreciate what you're saying about several gallons of tap water being required to make 1 gallon of RO water, but is it fair to say that my (relatively) small tank wouldn't be too big an issue, it's not like I have one of the larger tanks that many of you have?

Finally, is the Seachem product in the OP redundant if I go the RO route? Would you recommend trying this product? From what you've said, the RO seems the most straightforward way, and I prefer the idea of not adding chemicals to my tank.

Thanks for your help, it has been very useful .

p.s. I plan on not touching my 2nd tank containing the Galaxy's until I've succesfully managed the pH in my tank posted above (if at all), so if they're going to breed in there, they'll have every chance. If not, then hopefully I'll be in a position to manage the water quality more to their liking in the future.

Hi,
Well with the KH of 200 it is going to take quite a bit
of RO water to dilute it down to where you want to wind up.
Carbonate Hardness (KH) is the measure of the buffering
ability of your water. With yours being so high it could
take a lot of RO to make a dent in that big a tank.
However, once you establish the ratio, then you can adapt
that to your water change. Once you know, you will be
able to say change out 20 gallons and add 16 tap and 4 RO
(for instance) to get a overall tank pH of 7.0.

Once you do the initial work, you should be able to keep
the tank with in a couple of decimal points of what you
want from week to week.

Honestly, I am not a fan of using chemicals to keep a tank
at some given point. I firmly believe in doing things the
natural way. Once you start buying chemicals, you can buy
a car with what could be spent over a period of years.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks for all the help Frank.

I'm going to go the RO route - I definitely prefer the natural solution to any chemical solution. Just need to do a bit of research on which RO unit now (I'll be putting a post in the technical board).

Again, thanks for the help - I feel a lot more confident in improving my tank parameters.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--