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I have renafilter xp2 and 1 when is time to clean under it

edith

Hi Edith,
My current 30G tank has been running with a UGF for
13 years.
I have never cleaned the filter. I do vacuum the non
planted portions of my tank with a Python siphon and when
I do, I push the head of the siphon all the way down into
the gravel to the filter plates. I clean a section at a
time, and because of the light bioload (5 black skirt
tetras and one cherry barb), I only do it once every
other week.

Unless you are tearing down the tank completely there is
rarely a reason to clean that filter.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

If an undergravel filter is subject to regular gravel vacs to remove excess solid particulate matter, you should never need to strip it down unless some catastrophe strikes the tank (e.g., incurable microsporidian infection wipes out all the fish, and you have to sterilise the aquarium and begin again).

My aquarium receives its water changes and gravel vacs twice per week because the bioload is pretty heavy. If you don't want to splash out large sums of money on a purpose built gravel vac unit, you can make a pretty effective one from the top of a soft drinks bottle and a length of siphon hose - that's how I made mine. Cost me about 50p and has performed beautifully ever since I made it.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Ok thank you. LOL Frank you no how new I am just didn't no if I needed to do it or not so I all ways ask here first. Oh and frank I have a question. We have three fish cleaning off a nother pip to the under ground filter don't no if 2 female and male or the other way around is it posibel 2 mails or females to one of the opsite sex will do this? It isn't my platnums there on there own as you no.

edith

Hi Edith,
Many fish love to dig in the gravel and not just for
breeding purposes. Needless to say, they stop when they
reach the glass bottom of the tank or the top of the UGF
filter plate. If they are allowed to dig down to the
plate then the bulk of the water if not all of it will
flow through the hole and out the risers. That will leave
the remainder of the gravel bed with no water flow through
it. That, could turn the gravel bed into a toxic waste
dump over time. The whole idea of the UGF is to have water
flow through the bed and up the risers back into the tank.
Bypassing the gravel will allow the gravel to become
anaerobic and will produce a foul black area that has
Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smelling) gas that can be
toxic to the fish and plants.

I would not use a UGF in tanks that have "diggers."
They will dig all over the tank creating pits, uprooting
plants, and toppling ornaments. It's their thing, and
what they love to do. This is how they get to worms
and other tasty morsels that live in the substrates in the
wild.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

No Frank I didn't word that right. I mean they are cleaning the pip as if to lay eggs on it like the platnums did but there is three of them. What I was asking is would it be posible for one male two females to be laying eggs to gether. or to males to be ready to fertalize one females eggs.

edith

UGFS, yuck.
My suggestion is get rid of it.
These things are like ticking time bombs.
I had one in my 25g tank when I first set it up.
It was a really bad situation. The tank started to get
this really bad smell, so I started doing more gravel vacs. The smell never went away, then I noticed black crud starting to come up from the uplift pipes.
I promptly stripped the tank and removed the UGF.
The disgustingness of it. It was like a whole pile of
liquid poo under it. Smelled awful.

My sister had the same thing with hers,but she wasnt vacc'ing the gravel 2x weekly like I was, so instead
her UGF caused Mold to grow on the gravel surface.
She ended up having to throw away her gravel with the UGF.

They really only are effective when used with a reverse flow powerhead, that can be reversed and allow the crud to be sucked out.
In my opinion, UGFS are outdated technology that we have no surpassed greatly with canister and HOB filters.
Mine went into the trash, and thats where I think they all should go.

If I were you, I would remove the uplift pipe,
stuff your gravel vac tube right in there, and
see what you suck out.
You may decided to chuck the sucker out when You
see what you get.


Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
http://games.atari.com
Http://www.myleague.com/yahtgames

Well So_Very_Sneaky I don't agree. I love it and I have no prublem with it. But thank's for your thought

edith

My UGF haqs been running for 12 years. I have NEVER encountered anything like that Sneaky. Of course doing gravel vacs twice weekly probably helps, but even so, there's a fairly lively fish population in that aquarium.

I suspect that the Amazon Sword's humungous root system is having some effect upon this, though. My Amazon Sword, for those who have not seen recent pics, is staging a campaign for world domination. It looks like a Giant Kelp, and it seems hell bent on becoming as big as one in time. Someday, I'll count the leaves on it again, but even after a LOT of pruning during a recent water change, there were still enough leaves on the plant to provide my aquarium with its own one-piece rainforest.

Oh, and I think the Pandas are about to spawn again. Watch this space.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I've seen a lot of people complain about UGFs but I ran a remarkably overstocked tank (not something I'm proud of) for a couple of years with no issues. I still don't really understand why it worked so well for so long.

I've since upgraded to a larger tank, and when I finally stripped everything out of the original tank there was nothing anywhere near as awful underneath as what was described. And I only ever did once a week, 10% water changes, with a thorough gravel vac of half the tank each time.

I can't say I agree with a blanket statement of 'UGF are awful'. But I guess it just comes down to individual experiences.

They are great devices IF you look after them. Also, some tanks/stocking are just really unsuited to them.

I think most of the problems with them stem from people not adequately cleaning them regularly. If you look after them there is no reason that they should turn ugly on you.


About the only hassle I had was when I had one overstocked and the inhabitants ended up with velvet. because of the height of the tank the syphon wasn't very powerful so there was much organic matter left under the plates. When I tried medicating the organic matter deactivated the drug and I ended up with absolutely chronic velvet

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

I just honestly dont see why we are even still
using them at all. They are outdated technology.
Why leave all that crud in your tank sitting under
a plastic (that wont degrade for 100 years) peice of grating.
A Canister or HOB would be much better, and there is no
need for a UGF with either of these.


Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
http://games.atari.com
Http://www.myleague.com/yahtgames

Well So_Very_Sneaky I am glad that is just opinion. I have a canaster with mine and I love it. If it is so out dated why did they just come out with the new rena xp4?

edith

Well I used one because it came as part of a package I bought when I was first getting into the hobby. I didn't know much about what I was buying, but I had seen them used in other tanks before. I didn't know what other options existed.

As I said, I haven't had a negative experience with mine. Even with a (too) high bioload. But I wouldn't recommend them to others on the basis of the number of negative stories I've heard from people. Better to go with safer options IMO.

UGFs were all the rage when they first came out, and for years and years afterwards. Nothing in current technology has bween able to take its place. Sure there are filters that remove every last scrap of muck and require less maintenance, but the UGF offers things that the modern filters just can't do. There is no other filter that can utilise the gravel bed for that level of biofiltration, no other filter that has the entire tank footprint for its intake. They may sound a bit trivial, but there are some cases where its just ideal.

They are super dooper for bettas, fancy guppies, wild-caught fish from still areas, delicate fish that can't tolerate any ammonia, and some breeding tanks. Apparently (and it seems according to Frank also) that they are pretty great for planted tanks with small stock too.

Modern technology has made some changes that can improve the UGF, like powerheads that can reverse the flow which allows you to utilise the gravel bed for biofiltration while using a secondary filter to clear the water of debris. You can also hook the UGF plates up to an external filter and use that to collect what is under the plates, although that one is a home jobbie and it does *cough* increase the tank gravity somewhat .


Its an old piece of kit, and it does have its downsides, but there are places it fits perfectly.
I would hate to see them disappear from the market as I find them a wonderful tool given the right situation.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Thank you Callatya and frank I feel the same way. Yes they might not be liked by all but I wouldn't be with out it. I had truble at first with my tank but that was my doing. Being new I didn't clean it right but with my friend Frank and other's help I am learning. And you never stop learning that is the fun of it. But I love the underground filter.

edith

Hi,
I remember when the UGF was "invented" and I recall the
ads that said something to the effect that "you never
need do filter maintenance again" with this new filter.
In those days, the only filters we had were HOB style
filters of various sizes that we filled with (at first)
a glass wool layer about an inch or two thick, and then
poured 2 - 3 inch thick layer of "activated charcoal" on
top of it. Depending upon your bio load, you had to change
this stuff every week, throwing the filter floss away, and
rinsing out the charcoal. Then you had to replace the
charcoal regularly, as it lost it's "activation" and be
came just another form of mechanical filtration.
I remember reading that you could reactivate the
charcoal by baking it in the oven on a cookie sheet.
You can imagine what that smelled like, and my parents
quickly nixed any further baking sessions.

Then along came this filter and I bet it would not be far
off to say that "we all" jumped on it. Only years later
when a move required tearing down the tank, or folks lost
interest in their tanks and gave them away, did we discover
the "crud" that was trapped under those plates.
At first, they (the filters) were powered by air stones,
and there was much written about the determining the proper
length of the riser tubes and allot of experimentation about
the proper size bubbles and the "right" type of air stone
to create them. All geared to making the filter more
efficient. Now they are powered by power heads and the
noise of the bubbling risers has been replaced with the
gentle, quiet hum, of the power head.

You really cannot simply install a UGF and forget it.
It will, eventually, cause problems with the water.
It is not the be all, end all, of aquarium filters.

Being out of sight, it should not be out of mind.

With todays siphons, you can clean the non planted sections
of the tank right down to the filter plates.
Churning the gravel within the siphon head will
really clean that gravel. How thick the gravel bed is
will also affect the flow and the siphon will not
only clean it, it will also replace it, so that it
is loosely packed thus allowing more water
movement through the gravel.

Attaching a filter to the risers, such as a canister,
might help removing the "crud" from under the plates,
but you would have to pay very close attention to the
system. You would have to use a minimum amount of gravel
for the substrate, and monitor the gage on the filter
suction side to be sure that you are not starving the
filter for water. The result would be an overheated
filter, and possibly an anaerobic bacteria cluster in the
filter.

If you have just a UGF in the tank, you would need to have
a light bio load in the tank. All todays other style
filters allow you to "cheat" and increase the bio load of
the tank by more than was thought prudent.
They all provide, sometimes literally, thousands of square
inches of surface area for beneficial, nitrogen cycle
bacteria, live on. All of our filters are based on one, or
sometimes a couple of sections of a typical, municipal,
water treatment plant. They all use forms of UGF,
others use a form of fluidized bed, some pass the
water through charcoal filters, others also use a form
of RO, etc. A glance at todays water treatment plants
will show you huge aquarium filters. We have simply
taken the water purification processes, and boxed them
to fit our tanks.

Todays UGF requires no moving parts, that have to
be replaced, and no filter medium that needs to
be replaced and no tubing that needs to be cleaned
or clamped.
You simply need to install it, and clean it, a section
at a time, once a week or so, along with your regular
aquarium maintenance.

As for noise, the gentle hum of the power head simply
blends in with the three computers, and the transmitter
cooling fans, and that combined with nearly 20 years on the
flight deck of an aircraft carrier, is something I don't
even notice.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Ultimately, the lesson that has to be learned by all fishkeepers is that there is NO such thing as a 'zero maintenance aquarium'. Which takes us right back to my sermon about an aquarium not being a TV.

However, given proper care and attention, an undergravel filter can keep an aquarium habitable for years. Mine's been in place for 12 years, and I do not feel a compelling need to change that situation in the foreseeable future. Given proper care and attention, an undergravel filter can deliver creditable performance for year on end at a relatively low cost. The principal costs of an undergravel filter are measured in terms of the aquarist's labour in performing gravel vacs - no filter media to be changed or thrown away, and no activated carbon that needs recycling or disposal. The undergravel filter harnesses Nature's own processes, and was the first to do so, and in doing so was an important step along the long path of introducing aquarists to ecological awareness, by introducing aquarists to the idea that there existed in Nature organisms that could perform the tasks needed in our aquaria to keep our fishes alive, and that when those organisms are cultured, they perform their task in a relatively fuss free manner.

The undergravel filter thus serves to enlighten us to a more general principle - namely that if there exists an organism in Nature that can be harnessed to maintain water quality, doing so will frequently result in a happier aquarium with happier occupants, at considerably less cost to the aquarist than a technological solution, and with a lower consumption of disposables. Which means that an aquarium run by an aquarist harnessing Nature with just the right amount of technology to do the job will also be contributing to the reversal of the 'throwaway society' that has led to humans having a global impact upon climate that could turn around and bite us very badly if we do not act to do something about it. After all, if you're not buying quantities of synthetic wool etc., there's nothing for you to throw away, and thus you're not consuming the resources that are needed to make the synthetic media, package it etc., and so you're reducing your 'carbon footprint' into the bargain. Marine aquarists have latched onto the idea of harnessing natural organisms with a vengeance, which is why we see refugia becoming popular aquarium management tools - for one thing a refugium is a LOT cheaper than what might be termed the "hardcore techological approach" because manufacturing a power filter to withstand constant operation in contact with seawater requires robust engineering, and one of the wallet-wilting realities of this life is that you can build up to a specification or down to a cost, but not both simultaneously.

So, the undergravel filter continues to possess merits even though technology has, theoretically, moved on - it still delivers excellent filtration per unit cost compared to some other systems, and if managed with the requisite care, will perform for as long as the aquarist is physically capable of managing it. Indeed, it will outlast many of the aquarists who own one - chances are one or two of us here could leave an undergravel filter to our descendants and it will still perform as well as it did for us, long after WE have been naturally recycled ourselves.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Well So_Very_Sneaky I am glad that is just opinion. I have a canaster with mine and I love it. If it is so out dated why did they just come out with the new rena xp4?

Edith, what the heck are you even talking about it?
Did you even read my post at all?
I am not talking about the Rena Canister filters,
which are possibly the best canisters on the market,
of which I own 1 and am very content with it.

I am talking about undergravel filters, which is your question "do I clean the under ground filter".
UGFS - undergravel filters are outdated technology,
and with todays Canister filters, theres no
need to use one, is what I said.

Please read the response before you reply
thank you.


Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
http://games.atari.com
Http://www.myleague.com/yahtgames

Sneaky Pete is right. While it is obvious undergravel filters do achieve some minor amount of pseudo-mechanical and chemical filtration, it is wholly inefficient and ineffective compared to nearly every other product out there. The bottom rungs of the tank just doesn’t provide sufficient oxygen (especially under all that gravel) to allow for any good amount of biological filtration unless you have next to no substrate at all, as the decaying matter that falls into the grates consumes what limited oxygen there is down there, often leading to anerobic spots unless, as stated, you've got next to no substrate, in which case, you're really better off with something that doesn't look nearly as gaudy and provides a faster flow rate through a cultured medium. In order to maintain a clean tank, an UGF requires far more dilligent and careful (not to mention more frequent) siphon related care, and thus, a good quality HOB/IT filter, or better yet, a power canister will always be a better bang for your buck. All in all, it is simply outclassed by everything else on the market, and that, while being a straight opinion, is one that is backed by a multitude of aquarists—and I should know. Being a catfish fanatic, I necessarily need my substrate in tip-top condition; something an underground filter just can’t pull off by bubble wand alone. The one and only time I would ever use a UGF would be with a powerhead driven system complete with a pre/post filter mechanism, and even then, it's not quite as good as a well managed HOB.

It also depends greatly on the species of fish kept--burrowing animals, especially preadatory puffers, sand sifting/ambush cats, masties, etc, are okay with UGFs, but again, only with dilligent care, as, if the UGF is not properly cleaned, spending time down there will really cause trouble for said inhabitants. However, such burrowing fish prefer sand, always. Earth movers--large cichlids excluding sifters are always a no-no.