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Hi all,
I am getting ready to set up a new tank that I think is about 77 gal, the dimensions are 36"W X 16"D X 33"H.

My question is about stocking the tank with fish. I am interested in having a few larger fish as the main subjects in the tank (6" when fully grown) along with other tank mates that would not necessarily get lost in the large tank.

I know there are many Cichlids that fit that size profile, but I have read that most Cichlids are more territorial and may be aggressive - not nice community members.

If anyone has suggestions for me I would appreciate it.

Alec

they're my favorite so maybe i'm biased, but i think a large group (6, possibly 8) of angelfish would look really impressive in a tank that size. they're definitely less territorial when you keep them in groups and in my experience they can coexist peacefully with many types of tetras, so you could finish off your tank with some nice schools of fish.

That's a fairly tall tank; if you go by surface area the capacity isn't even more than a standard 55 gallon aquarium. The angels are a good idea. Larger gourami would also be a good choices. I can't really comment much on cichlids but I'm fairly certain there are some American species that are less aggressive.

--------------------------------------------
The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

Kribs are a cichlid that would work in that sized tank, I've got kribs in our community tank and they get along very well with everyone. When I first got them I had 6 temporarily housed with a dozen or so WCMM in a 20 gal and there was never any aggression even in tight quarters.

Like shini mentioned its a tall tank, and I think you should think of angels as they do like taller tanks. However keep in mind that tall tanks have less surface area and less surface area means less stocking.


^_^

Sorry for the delay in my response. Had some difficulty logging in and getting the response to my email...

Thank you for your ideas. I have had Angels before and loved them. Glad they will work in taller tanks.

I have also wanted to try Kribs. They seem like they would be fun to breed and raise. Any idea if they would work well with the Angels. If I remember correctly the Kribs prefer the bottom more and the Angels more mid and top.

Why is the surface area some determinant of the stocking capacity of the tank. Seems like I used to know this, but can't recall now. Would a bubbler help with the O2 exchange?

Thanks again for the info.

Anything that will agitate the surface will help with the oxygen exchange. If an airstone or bubblewand bothers you with the noise, you can lower the water level a small amount so that the water splashes more.

I've never had angels before so I don't know how they'd react with kribs. Ya the kribs do tend to stick to the bottom, if they have plenty of hiding spots I'm sure they'd be good together.


^_^

Hi,
The tall tanks are also known as "show" tanks. The reason
for taller tanks was twofold.
One was to confine the movement of the fish
inside to swimming vertically instead of horizontally.
In an instance where fish were being judged, one could have
more tanks of fish on a table if the tanks were tall.
In a fish show where they were being judged, a judge would
stand facing the tank and observe the fish. By using only
tall tanks fish movement was restricted to mostly up and
down and the judge could stand in one spot, usually bent
over, and observe the fish. With a regular tank, the
judges would have to step from side to side and "chase" the
fish not only with a swiveling head but also by physically
moving back and forth over the width of the tank.

The second reason for "tall" tanks was to provide more
gallons of water in a smaller space (apartment living)
or to fill an empty corner.
In the "old days" of the one inch of fish per gallon, and
the desire to have a tank full of movement in a restricted
space, the tall tanks became popular. For instance, in
apartments, a tall tank allowed one to have a 50 gallon
tank, in one square foot square of space. Of course the
tank was 5 foot tall but it was "50 gallons."

The thing is, the surface area is the key.
That is the amount of the surface of the inside of
the tank where the water is exposed to the atmosphere.
That area is the area that the tank "breathes" through.
It is where the exchange of oxygen and CO2 occurs.
The surface area is really small in a "tall" tank
because the depth is so great compared to the length
and width.

Now, some fish are built physically, that require tanks
with more depth to them - Angels are the typical example.
However, the ideal angel fish tank would be proportionally
much longer and wider, so that the surface area
supported them, as well as deep, so that they could
swim normally and not drag on the gravel.
Instead, most are housed in tanks that restrict
them laterally and give them some vertical movement.
They barely get up a head of steam, when they hit the
sides of the tank.

Another problem that folks run into with tall tanks,
especially those that are two foot or more tall, is
lighting, and plants. With the light sitting atop of the
tank shining down through the water column, the light is
dispersed, scattered, and absorbed as it travels through
the water. The result is that there is less light energy
arriving at the gravel and plants do not thrive or will
die from the lack of light. One can compensate for this
and still have a lush planted tall tank by shifting the
spectrum of the light from the red end to the blue end
of the spectrum. Red light is absorbed within the first
few inches of the water column, while blue light penetrates
deeper (feet). So, using light with a Kelvin rating of
10,000K for your tank, with sufficient Watts per Gallon
strength, would allow you to have a nicely planted tank.

The oxygen and CO2 exchange in that tank is restricted
by the lack of surface area (as mentioned earlier) and
to overcome that problem, and eliminate "dead" areas within
the tank, you need to turn over the water in the bottom
and corners of the tank. Air stones, bubble wands, or
filter returns would create currents within the tank that
would cycle the water from the bottom to the top and across
the surface and then back down. This would ensure even
oxygen and CO3 saturation throughout the tank and would
also eliminate "dead" areas, in this case areas little or
no currents which would allow detritus to build up and
create a "sump" of foul water.

Hope this explains the "Surface Area" questions...

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Wow, thanks for the great reply about the surface area. That is some of what I rememebered from a few years ago. So great reminder as well as really cool additions to my limited info. Hopefully the tall tank will work out for the better. Maybe I should go for a larger selection of smaller fish to fill the various levels of the tank.

Decisions, decisions...


Alec

Hi Frank,

You mention lighting being a problem with tall tanks, would increasing the total watts be a fix for that? I was looking at a double T5HO 36" long. I was originally thinking one, but maybe two fixtures would be good, i.e.:
22X39watts) 154 watts total.

Let me know what you, or anyone else thinks,

Thanks,

Alec

Hi Alec,
I'm not a fan of bullying the light into the tank.
That usually results in a huge algae problem rather than
the desired plant growth.

The T-5 bulbs come in various Degrees Kelvin. In this tank
I would probably use bulbs in the 8800K to 10,000K range
to encourage proper plant growth. The higher you go in
Degrees Kelvin, the bluer the light gets till you can
actually loose some of the greens of the plants when viewed.
In saltwater tanks, where they run 20,000K and over, they
usually counteract the blue tinge of everything by also
adding a white light to wash out the blue.

As far as the watts per gallon (wpg) is concerned, it would
be best for you to look at the plants that fall into the
three categories of light demand and then choose your
poison. Low light plants are between 1 and 1.5 wpg.
Medium light plants are between 2 and 3 wpg, and high
light plants require over 3 wpg.

If you are new to plants, it might be wise to stick with
low light plants such as crypts, Anubis, and ferns. The
Anubis and ferns are attached to driftwood and thrive in
low light. Crypts come in all sizes and shapes. All of
the low light plants are slow growers, and rarely need
supplemental CO2 added to the tank. The driftwood with
plants attached might just set off your fish and look
really good.

Medium and high light plants will require a bigger hood,
and obviously more wpg which translates into more $$$.
The choice of plants is infinitely larger, but with
them you would need to add carbon to the tank for
plants to feed on.
Generally speaking once you hit 3 wpg the plants grow so
fast that they have to have the carbon. Think of light
as the engine of plant growth, and carbon as the fuel for
that engine. In low light tanks, the plants grow much
slower and are able to break down the organic compounds
in the tank to obtain the carbon they need. Usually, as
long as there are enough fish in the tank, being fed a
nice variety of foods, there is plenty of organics for the
plants to feast on. Therefore, additional carbon is rarely
needed, in a low light tank. With the higher light plants,
they grow so fast that they outstrip the tank of carbon
and frequently fail to grow or thrive.
That big a tank would require a bottled gas system,
consisting of at least a 5 pound bottle of gas, a two stage
regulator, bubble counter, and a CO2 reactor. Initially it
is a large outlay of $$$ but the only continuing cost would
be refilling the CO2 tank. Mine costs me about 9$ and some
change once every 6 months or so, at one bubble per second
injection rate.

To directly answer your question, Choose your family of
plants, and then look at the two bulb hoods then choose
the Degrees Kelvin you would like, and see how
big (watts) the bulbs are that will fit in that hood.
Choose the combination of Degrees Kelvin and watts for each
bulb to come up with the wpg needed for your plants, you
may be able to get away with two 96 watt bulbs (192 watts)
instead of a 4 bulb hood using lower wattage bulbs but more
money.
The T-5 hoods come with a single bulb all the way up to
5 or more bulbs in one hood.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hi Frank,
One more question about this light thing, as I am ready now to actually get one for my birthday.

The light I am looking at comes with 2 39 watt 10K "Daylight" bulbs and also two 39 watt 460 nm Actinic bulbs. If I understand this correctly, which I most likely don't, is better for a reef/saltwater tank. Or would I be better served subbing a "Freshwater" T5HO bulb for the Actinic bulbs?

FYI, I am looking at the NovaExtreme T5HO light systems by Current USA.

Thanks so much for your help with this,
Alec

Hi Alec,
Yes, the hood, with it's two actinic blue bulbs is set up
for a saltwater system. You can try/do one of two things.
First, talk to the folks from where you are purchasing the
hood and see if you can't get them to swap out the two
actinic blue bulbs for two more 10K Daylight bulbs.
Or, second, and more expensive, simply order the hood and
at the same time order the two additional 10K Daylight
bulbs, and when they all come, you replace the actinic
blue bulbs.

The actinic blue bulbs are mainly for saltwater, reef
tanks or tanks with saltwater invertebrates. Because the
light has so very high a Kelvin rating the light is
actually blue, and the two 10K Daylight bulbs over power
the "blue" light making the overall appearance of the
light from the hood, white.

When I ordered my hood ( different brand, different
supplier) I wound up having to order the extra bulbs as
for some reason they could not change them out.


Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thank you very much for your time Frank, I appreciate the info. I have contacted the supplier and am waiting for a reply.

Thanks again,

Alec

as for fish, you could try a tanginyaki (spell it right?) aquarium. all of them are pretty timid ans wont fight.

UPDATE:
I just purchased 6 angels today. They are all on the small side right now, about 1 - 1 1/2 inches each. I hope to post a picture of them soon. I may be adding some others later, but the bank account and fish both need to settle down for a while now.

thanks for all the advice,

amackattack