FishProfiles.com Message Forums

I over filter all the time, I have the 55g rated aquaclear on a 29 i have a 150 on a 27 which is a little small. for my tastes and two on my 20 the fluval3 which is a 33g rated and this silly kit one thats supposed to work for a 30. I am trying to descide wether to buy some biowheels for the 20 and 35 or aquaclears i like the aquaclears so far, and i have heard that its possible to add biowheels to the aquaclears with minimal altering. i am not sure if this is in addition to the biomatter or not but aparently some like to do it this way because the aquaclear aparently moves more water using less power but they want the biowheel to aid in the biofiltration. This is a little off topic i guess, but I think my point is, over filter always more is better imho.

Thanks guys for this info, I am left with a very difficult decision. It would have been easier to take them back when i first got them, not after 6 months... I can sense a new and much bigger tank coming my way in the not so distant future...

connie

Wow, BIG THREAD!

CONNIE: Welcome to FP
Hmm, the ever-popular stunting myth
The LFS is right in a way, but irresponsible for suggesting that this is a good way of going about things. The thing is, they probably do not know any better as this is a very common myth.

The bala/silver sharks are pre-programmed to grow a certain size, its just part and parcel of being that type of fish. The reason fish may grow "to the size of the tank" is because the waste matter the fish put out essentially poisons them, and causes energies to be put into survival and not growth. more often though, they just up and die when the toxins start building up.

So basically yes, you can stunt them, but it will make them sickly and dramatically shorten their lifespan, and you run the risk of them just kicking the proverbial bucket, which really isn't the kindest thing you can do to a fish.
Big animal welfare concerns here. Its much like keeping a horse in a small stable 24/7, you can change its bedding and feed it all you like, but it will grow weak and develop problems.

With balas in perticular the tank size is important as they are very skittish fish and as they get bigger and nervier they will jump around the tank and if it is not big enough they can cause damage to themselves and other tankmates. I've even heard of a few that have lept up and managed to get through lids onto the floor! Ideally these fish would have a tank that was about 6x2x2', but a standard 5' would probably be the minimum size. If you feel you can judge when they are starting to stunt then you can play "musical tanks" and swap them out to a larger tank at a later point in time, but the rate at which those things grow, you are probably best off taking them back to the pet shop and swapping them for something more suitable for your size tank (if you can)

Its a really common thing, plenty of people here have been caught out by this one. The lure of the silver shark is pretty strong!


PATTMYN: Well, welcome to FP to you too What sort of tank/filter is it? can you see a brand or numbers on it?

The grinding noise may well be a dirty impeller and all that would need is for you to disassemble it a little and clean it off (generally dead simple to do). It could be that you have small snails that are getting stuck in there and the shells are causing damage and adding to the grindy noise.
Very important that you get rid of the noise as A) you might be tempted to turn the filter off to sleep, and thats a big no-no as it cuts the available oxygen in the water, and B) any noise like that with mechanical equipment means wear, and thats not a good thing, it'll make it less efficient.

You *may* just scrape by for now with the angel in the 20, I have seen 4 adults in a 30 recently, and although they were cramped and didn't have much swimming room, they were full sized (yes they did grow up in there). I am not suggesting you do this as the aggression levels weren't as low as they could be and the maintenance was just mind-blowing, but actual physical size-wise, you may just scrape through for a while longer (wouldn'd be much longer though, judging by the size of him, maybe 6 months?)

The thing with angels is that they are often taller than they are long, so the height of a tank is just as important (if not moreso) than the length. If it has to trail its fins along the gravel, that is just asking for scrapes and infections.

In the photo, the tank seems to be a bit unclear, possibly a bit greenish? are you able to run the tank light for about 10 hours a day? If so, maybe you might want to consider a few live plants to help deal with the waste. (a good idea if you reduce stocking anyway) If you had less fish in there, the tank would likely be clearer than it is now because the stuff that clouds the water would have less nutrients to work with

How often do you change water?

And to the original question, can't you just use your thumb over the end of the syphon to stop the flow? Or are you using a Python?




Last edited by Callatya at 30-Nov-2005 21:14

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

would not outgrow the tank they would only grow in relation to the tank size

Sweets. I think it is reasonable for you to believe the lfs because they are working with these creature right? So I start by saying that right off.

However, no unfortunately there is no truth to what they say. Although I am sure they are not trying to be misleading. I am sure they just don't know any better. someone told them and they pass it on in good faith.

You will have to upgrade your tank at some stage or trade the fish in and replace with ones more appropriate to the size tank. Don't panic yet though. You can cross that bridge when you come to it. But long term those little guys will have to have more room.

Welcome and hope to see more of you around here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Hi, i am new here, just joined FP yesterday.

With regards to the fish outgrowing the tank, 2 of my lfs told me that my bala/silver sharks would not outgrow the tank they would only grow in relation to the tank size. They can grow up to 35cm and my tank is only 95cm long (30G). I am a bit confused now, is there any truth in what the LFS said???

If you haven't already check out keith's profile and the tank he put together, it is awesome.

From what has been said the angel needs a deeper tank, it doesn't necessarily have to be longer. The gouramis also get bigger and will quickly outgrow the 20g. Obviously the angel is a special fish, but you don't want to cause it to suffer being cramped in a tank too short for it. Having lived in a 2g (poor thing) it is already probably suffering some problems with stunting.

As to the fog, my tank is also a little cloudy after a water change, but this usually settles down. The longer the tank has been set up the quicker this goes away, it is now a matter of minutes as opposed to days in the beginning. Definitely new filter if it is making noises, in the meantime take the pump off and pop out the impeller and clean with a fine bottle brush all the gunk that accumulates in side around the impeller. This helps the filter pump work better and should reduce that grinding sound.

Last edited by luvmykrib at 29-Nov-2005 14:35

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

I know that this is not somethign that people should do on a regular basis, but is there any way you could take some of your fish to your LFS (Local Fish Store) and return them for credit? This would probably be best for all of your fish since you said you weren't sure that you could deal with a bigger tank right now. You shoul ddecide which fish will be suited to the 20 gallon tank that you have and take the rest in for credit.

You should think about this option. I know no one else brought it up so I figured I would atleast bring this option to your attention...


Christina

Slightly off-topic:

I hear a lot of conflicting info on angels and their social needs. Some say they need a buddy to be truly happy, while others contend that they are fine alone. Any thoughts?

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

yes, even that is overstocked.
If you want blackskirts, 6-10 of those alone would be more than enough to fill your tank.
Angels will need more space regardless of tankmates.

I have heard on here that angelfish need atleast an 18" tall tank. Otherwise they get so tall that they will be stunted, and eventually die early. A 20g tall or 29g may be ok for the one angelfish. You could put 1 school of tetras in a 20g tall with the angel, or 2 in the 29. I wouldn't put white or black skirts with the angel though. You may not have problems now, but could eventually as they are a bit nippy.

*Kristin*

For the 20 gal:

6 black skirts
1 rubberlip pleco
The male betta

Your two gouramis get pretty big. The blue one will hit about 6" and the kisser will hit 12". The angel alone needs a tall tank that holds at least 20 gallons.


I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

Gwaha!! Thats alot of info to suck in at once. Let me get this straight: Bigger tank, better filter. The filter I have came with the tank (Hurrah for combo kits) but not only has it been acting up (Strange grinding noise linked something inside the pump deeper than I can get into) but it just generally sucks (baaaaaaaaaaaaaad pun right there...). As for the bigger tank, that might be a bit more effort. The 20gal is sitting on my dresser (which is made of VERY solid wood, its supported 3 people sitting on it before for a picture and didnt flinch in the least. Aprox weight: 300-350lbs, give or take) but I dont know of a place I could put a bigger tank. I might resort to a DIY project for a bigger tank, I'm feeling creative these days.

Would this be over stocking? Angelfish + 6 blackskirts > 20gal. Bearing in mind that that angelfish grew to just about the size it is now in a 2gal.

Mental note: Get picture of Minou lying on BJ. It's really cute.

Very true katieb, I think that's how the advice to me was meant. Those fish will get way to big for that tank. The only real solution would be to get an appropriate sized tank or only buy fish that will fit the tank.

I can understand rescuing the poor angel, but it still needs a deeper tank. Try looking in a bargain type paper. We have The Bargain Finder and you can often find good deals on tanks.

I'd still increase the filtration though. Better to go over than under when it comes to filtering a tank.

Do a 30% to 50% water change weekly, do not scrub the filter at the same time as the water change, be sure when you clean the filter to not use hot water. Rinse it in old tank water, same with the sponges. The activated carbon only is good for 2-3 weeks, then it should be changed, be sure to rinse it first. When you change the water or clean the filter add the bio-agent (cycle, biospira etc) to the filter where it's needed the most. Try to space water changes and filter cleanings at least three days apart. Always try to have the water going in the same temp and pH as the water in the tank. This should keep fish happy and healthy as long as they are not overcrowded.

Last edited by luvmykrib at 26-Nov-2005 22:21

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

"I was told (not here so don't yell at me) that if you want to push stocking levels then you need to over-filter and use plants. I'd put in some low-light plants and filter like crazy. May help. Then when you could, invest in a smaller tank for the other fish or a larger tank for the angel."

That sometimes works for overstocked tanks that have a few too many appropriately sized fish. Overfiltering won't change the fact that there are fish in there that get way too big for the tank. The kissing gourami gets 12 inches long, the angel grows at least 10 inches tall. There is a very good chance that the catfish will also get big. The tetras need a school of 6 or more each. The stocking needs to be fixed or the fish will not live as long as they could.

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

Hey there, new to the forum. Saw it was number 1 on Aquarank so I figured it would be a better place to ask questions than the other site I was on which seemed a bit quiet.

My question is about cleaning. How often should it be done? Any tips to make the process alot easier? I have a siphon but am quite annoyed with it due to the fact it sucks up alot of gravel and water too fast to clean the tank before it goes bone dry. As well, it's looking like I have to clean the tank almost weekly because of the strange fog that appears. After about a day or two of putting brand new water in the water loses clairity. It's not so cloudy that I cant see to the other side, but it's definately not crystal clear either. Here's the details of the tank:

20gal Tank Kept ~80*F with:
1 - Black Skirt (Ebony)
1 - White Skirt (Ivory)
1 - Blue Gourami (Asher)
1 - Pink Kissing Gourami (Zebulun)
1 - Rubber Lipped Plecostomus? (BJ)
1 - Some kind of Catfish from Petsmart (Minou)
1 - Angel Fish (Fishie)
1 - Male Betta (Beta)

Last edited by Pattmyn at 26-Nov-2005 13:04

The Aqua-Clear mini may not be a strong enough filter for a 20g tank. You may be able to upgrade to the Aqua-Clear 50 which is what I have on my 25. It does a better job of filtering and seems to be keeping the water clean. I have the mini on my 10g, where it is working great. I also use biomax inserts in both filters, this adds more biological filtering to the tank and is much nicer than an undergravel filter.

I was told (not here so don't yell at me) that if you want to push stocking levels then you need to over-filter and use plants. I'd put in some low-light plants and filter like crazy. May help. Then when you could, invest in a smaller tank for the other fish(tetras and catfish) or a larger tank for the angel.

Last edited by luvmykrib at 26-Nov-2005 18:23

Last edited by luvmykrib at 26-Nov-2005 22:26

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Yeah I agree there, if you dont have access to another tank get a large rubbermaid bin and a heater and filter and u can move them to that till you can get someone to take them or till you get another tank. Thats all I can think of, anyone else have suggestions?

"All filters are clean as a whistle, its something I checked into."

Water quality is only one aspect of fish health. Fish need room to grow, or they stunt. Stunting is when the skeleton stops growing, but the organs continue. Its painful, but easily prevented by proper tank size. If your fish are in a tank too small for them(and they are), it will kill them. No ammount of water changes or fancy meds will change that.

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

You need to remove most of the fish or else get a much bigger tank. The fish look healthy, but overstocked.


http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/s8xi5heh/my_photos
http://www.geocities.com/s8xi5heh/classic_blue.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/buzaqq/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/corydoras/
Member of the Malta Aquarist Society - 1970.
http://www.maltaaquarist.com

Minou!
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/5507/dscf07324gj.jpg

All filters are clean as a whistle, its something I checked into.

Last edited by Pattmyn at 26-Nov-2005 14:13