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Am I mistaken, or do Bettas not have both kinds of breathing organs? Aren't they able to take in oxygen from the water as well as surface air? Isn't this why they are considered a "hardier" breed of fish? I'm sure that I read about this --- but now can't seem to find any description of their breathing abilities other than the explanation of the labyrinth.... But if I'm correct, wouldn't this fact account for the fish NOT having to surface so frequently?

To thine own self be true...

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I know how hard it is when a favorite betta passes.

It sounds like a natural death if his fins were just a little shredded. When fish die from violence, in my experience, it's worse than that and someone else in the tank is usually injured as well. When one of my zebra danios went crazy and killed some of his school, he was pretty messed up, almost as much as his victims.

That's just my 2 cents.

I really had to think about this.... but have finally screwed up enough courage to write... knowing that I will hear "I told you so" many, many times along with other unflattering comments.... Yet, I don't feel it right to withhold information that might prevent others from going through the same experience......
Tonight when my husband and I came home from work, we found my beloved Patriot dead... Haven't really figured out exactly what happened... Thinking that maybe either Ghost and Patriot had fought to the death or that Patriot had tangled with one or more of the females --- I quickly checked --- yet all of my surviving Bettas (male and females) have not one ripped fin or body damage of ANY kind! Yet Patriot's fins were shredded and considerably shorter when we found him! It could have been the African Butterfly fish, but although Daniel shares a different opinion, I find that highly unlikely - as he seems to be more frightened around his tank mates than any other fish in the tank, and I would think there would be "chunks" out of Patriot rather than shredded fins!!!! Don't believe it was my cories, otos or platys --- because they're all quite peaceful fish ALL of the time! That only leaves my Angel - but he's never gone after any of the other fish that we've ever seen, and again he has no signs of having been engaged in any kind of battle ---- My husband wondered if Patriot's fins were damaged after death --- but even so, that doesn't explain his death..... All I really know is that I'm deeply saddened tonight and feel the guilt of not having properly cared for him - in WHATEVER way I should have! Lessons are sometimes learned the hard way.... and at the expense of the innocent.....

[span class="edited"][Edited by dreamweaver8891 2004-08-25 23:32][/span]

To thine own self be true...

It could have been many combustable elements that I had tried to point out. I am not trying to say any I told you so's. I am sorry for your loss and understand that everybody makes mistakes. I doubt that it was of natural causes if he had been fine last time you checked unless he was over 3 years old. Just learn from your mistakes and press on. Perk up, you'll be allright.

First off (geez I say that too much) I'm really really sorry for your loss! And now for part 2.

That only leaves my Angel - but he's never gone after any of the other fish that we've ever seen, and again he has no signs of having been engaged in any kind of battle

As a person who owns and has owned many a angel, I would never keep a betta with an angel. While yes the male betta can show a large amount of aggression, he is no match for even a small angel with an attitude.

Angels are VERY territorial. Even if it is not showing signs of nastiness now does not mean that he has not staked out his territory and your boy as mean as he could be might have challenged the angel. I'm sorry angles and bettas IMO are almost as bad as bettas and African cichlids.

Altho the betta is aggressive, thanks to selective breeding we have made him slow and cumbersome. He is not going to stand a chance against any cichlids with an attitude.

[span class="edited"][Edited by phoneshannen 2004-08-27 07:32][/span]

I'm no longer sure what is going on in my tank... This morning I woke up and began my usual routine of fixing a cup of coffee and feeding my fish only to discover another resident had died! This time, it was one of my favorite platys -- white underbelly, with blue almost jewel looking top and sides.... Her fins were NOT damaged, but she was floating at the top of the tank.... While I intend to take some water to my lfs today for testing.... I'm really beginning to wonder what IS going on! In all the time my community has been set up (approximately 8 months), I've lost very few fish --- and previously, have only lost one at a time --- never two this close together - and always before, the fish that died had been purchased just shortly before they died! But Patriot and this BEAUTIFUL platy had been residents of the tank for quite some time! It's also not a case of fish becoming ill and then dying... My tanks are the focal point in my living room, and allow me the privilege of indulging in the pleasure of monitoring the tank daily... And I can tell you that both of these fish appeared to be quite healthy one minute and then BOOM! we found them dead... With the platy showing absolutely NO body damage, I'm beginning to wonder if my husband was right in thinking our beloved Patriot was picked on after death - and that was the reason for the shredded fins... The only recent change that has occurred is trying out some "custom blend" food that was prepared by my lfs for the flake feeding (and we still maintain the other feedings as usual: pellet, frozen brine shrimp, frozen bloodworms - feeding 3 times daily, alternating food).... We follow a regimine of weekly vac/water change.... and have since the onset of our recent fishkeeping... I believe I will return to the flake food we were originally feeding as well as having the water checked.... But if anyone has any other ideas they would be more than welcome!

To thine own self be true...

IF the angel is of size to do damage..and it wouldn't really take much size..I'd watch it.

Suffered another loss today.... My husband came home to find Ghost had died.... Ghost was the white male Betta that I'd gotten by placing a special order at the my lfs and I'd found him to be the most peaceful male Splendens that I'd ever seen.... He was truly magnificent! Delicately gliding through the water --- Always a loner, even in the 55 gal community tank... Never bothering any other fish mates and never seemingly bothered by them either.... This 3rd death in as many days has effected me greatly... I just don't understand what is going on in my tank..... I did take my water in to Jack's Aquarium and everything was well within the limits.... Why all of a sudden are my fish dying? Now, both Patriot and Ghost had shredded fins when they were found - but the platy didn't have a mark on her!!!!! ??????? All fish appeared quite healthy just prior to their deaths... ?????? Water is fine.... What could this be?????


To thine own self be true...

I am really sorry about your fish.it is pretty grim. i have had a similar thing with my 35G, over the last six months nearly all of my fish died. i have just recently set up the tank again.

in the last month my fish bloated and one especially nasty death invovled blood from the nose and mouth.

although when the fish first died(march/april time) they showed no outward signs of being ill. at all.

a few fish died in the space of a week i did a change seemed ok for a while and then a few more would die the symptoms began to show up, sticky out scales, fin rot, swimming "funny". i tested the water frequently and found no problem there.

also when I kept fancy Goldfish if one of them died their fins disintegrated(sp)very quickly so maybe its the same with Bettas.

the guy my LFS store wondered if whatever disease i had in my tank changed or adapted to attack the fish's immune system, i had neons in my tank and he thought it was neon tetra disease?

its hard when you don't know why they die.evert one told me it was water Quality and wore myself testing and re testing at the shop and at home.

i hope no one else dies.

all the best
GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

I've had a female absolutly destroy a male when they were breeding, and she got out without a scratch.

My bettas were fairly good sized..the biggest (female) being 3" w/out fins. The size issue does make alot of sense..as they'd have a bigger "labrynth" to hold more air in.
From all I have read, the do breathe some through gills, but cannot be without a way to also gulp in air..and take it into their special labrynth organ.

Regarding bettas breathing habits, I've noticed my boys go several minutes without surfacing- and they're are in unfiltered tanks with no surface agitation to speak of. The only time they come to the surface every few seconds is when they're building nests. My biggest, healthiest boy, Arashi, has just now surfaced for air after being under for about 5 minutes. One thing I've noticed is that larger bettas surface less than smaller ones- my small male, Hikari, usually surfaces every couple of minutes, as does Dee, who's just a bit larger. Arashi, Friedrich, and Suzette, all much larger bettas, stay under for longer periods of time. Maybe age/size has something to do with it.

Maybe its time to agree to disagree, take each others opinions and experiences on board, and decide for yourselves how you want to keep your fish.
girlunderrainbow says she has managed to keep the two species in the same tank safely. Is she wrong? Maybe, maybe not. It is up to her how she keeps her fish and i'm sure she wouldnt hesitate to take fish out if there was a problem.
Dont tar everyone with your brush just because they do something different to what you would.

---

Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

All I'm saying is, I've got some experience with A) bettas in bigger tanks and B) Pantodon Buchholzi with bettas.
If you haven't had personal experience..(as in hands on experience with the exact same setups).. it doesn't apply to what I have seen in person. I'm stating fact, you're stating theory.

I never said that I kept them together, but that I had kept both of them respectivley. Also it is possible that your water may be more oxygenated than the average, but I doubt that it is to the extent that they would take 3 minutes without a breath

The profile here is pretty accurate except it says the gender is hard to determine when in fact it is very easy. I posted in here a few days ago, on how to sex, giving links to pix of my male and female.

We are talking about ( or at least I am) ,
Pantodon Buchholzi-"African Butterfly Fish" not the Africann Butterfly Cichlid.

Good info on African Butterfly fish here:
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?&genusname=Pantodon+&speciesname=buchholzi

Are you guys talking about the African Butterfly Cichlid?

Taken from the African Butterfly Cichlid profile on this site:

Temperament: Peaceful though territorial at times.
Diet: Carnivore (So that's probably why they go after the little fish)
Care: Feed frozen bloodworms and flakes. A planted tank is recommended. Hiding places among caves and roots are an advantage.
...
Potential Size: 6.5cm (2.6"

I thought that you said that 2.5" was a juvy size, Daniel. Is this a different species or does someone have the wrong info?

You need to actually spend some time watching bettas in larger tanks then. Watched the girl I have in my 6 ft yesterday just to get some exact numbers..she went 3 minutes w/out surfaciing. And she wasn't bloacked, lol. She was lazily swimming around the bottom..back up to the middle..and back down..looking around rocks/driftwood/plants for food..once, at about 2 minutes..she actually went almost to the surface..only about 2 inches short of it..then stopped..and went back down for one more look..then went up for air and back down again. I can only tell you, she was not stressed.
Also, you contradict yourself..saying you have experience with bettas/ABFs..and now say you won't for the "fear off". I do have experience with them together and they were fine-but I've only done large adult bettas.

Maybe you need to learn about bettas a little more. They must surface, or suffocate. I have not kept bettas with butterflys for the very reason that I have never seen a butterfly that wasn't willing to try to eat anything smaller than it. I have seen it happen before.