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i would like to read these too.

I almost went out and bought everything today.

After some thought, I've come up with this. A lot of hair algea can have a lot of decay, and this will cause high nitrate. So perhaps it's not high nitrates that cause hair algea, but it's hair algea that causes high nitrate.



Dan

"Bio-wheels cause hair algae blooms? I have never heard that one before, and really can't see where there would be any evidence of it either. And I actually do run two emperors with biowheels on one of my SW tanks."

"I have never heard of a bio wheel causing a algea bloom. Algea generally comes from phosphates caused from water changes from tap water. Bio wheels convert nitrates really fast. Live rock also does this. You can end up with a lot of nitrate in the tank. I still run a bio wheel in my reef tank and I have 125 pounds of live rock, and it causes no problems."

Well maybe it was just a coincidence then. I have my display and my QT and my QT has hair algae all over it and it has a bio-wheel, and just when I started QT'ing things, I read someone on RC had the same problem. I'm sorry I assumed that happened more often.

SW fish may be able to live in water with nitrates as high as 40, but that certainly is not good. Good is <10. Desired is 0 though.

It wouldnt matter about nitrites, because i have read levels up to 40ppm are good for SW fish.

Now, I would do WC's every other week, maby once a week for this tank.

If the nitrate levels went above 40 ppm, that would be pretty bad and i dont think they would ever get that high with those wc's.

Plus, if you take the bio-wheels out, you loose most beneficial bacteria in the tank when you change the filters (since that is the main place they will stay at - other than LR)

I too have seen some recommendations of removing the bio-wheel with a FOWLR system. Basically they stated that you run the HOB filter without the bio-wheel and only put the wheel on intermittenly. I do not remember if it had to do with algae, but seem to recall that it had to do with nitrate levels being lower without the wheel than with, similar to people who state that they have lower levels without a wet/dry drip than with.

John

why would you change the bio-wheel?

It never goes bad, unless like a fish jumped in it, and chewed it up or something.

We have had the bio-wheels on my 55g tank for like 3 years now, and they are fine.

I have never changed out a bio wheel. I agree with acidrain, it's like another chunk of live rock. The only time you should need to change out a bio wheel is if it's damaged.



Dan

Change the bio-wheel? You never change the bio-wheels. I have some that have been running for probably more than 10 years now. As for the aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, they work simotaniously. The aerobic bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrites, and then to nitrates, the anaerobic bacteria break down the nitrates. So they don't compete at all, they work together.

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There is always a bigger fish...

I am digging for the "studies" thread.

What I've gathered is that the biowheel works *too* well with liverock.

The biowheel spouts aerobic bacteria which never gives the anerobic bacteria on the live rock a chance to thrive.

When the bio-wheel is changed 8mos. down the road, your tank runs the risk of a cycle do to a boom in bacteria on the liverock.

Dont get me wrong, biowheels are nice on FO tanks, but theres no need for them on tanks containing liverock.

First off, the bio-wheel was/is not intended to remove the nitrates. But convert ammonia to nitrites, and then the nitrites to nitrates. LR will not remove the nitrates either, unless you have some extremely pourous LR with a bunch of anaerobic bacteria living within it. Or you have a ton of hair algae growing on it. This is why you use a sump, with macro algae or plants in it. As they remove the nitrates from the water. Or the use of a deep sand bed, or an ozonizer. Both of which also remove the nitrates.

JMT, not to be rude, but other "threads" are not of concern. As they are usually just antecdotal evidence or ideas that have no real research behind them. I would like to read scientific studies done about this and their results. Forum threads are not studies. And a sum up of them is not results either. You stated many studies done.

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There is always a bigger fish...

I'll find the threads later.

It basically equated to a difference in nitrate removal. And since the biowheel is exposed to air, a different bacteria occurs.

The biowheel then becomes "loaded" and releases nitrates back into the water.

The excess nitrates cause algae problems, etc.

I think I summed it up about right.

It is gonna be 10 gallons.

I want to cycle the tank with Live Rock, but i only really want 1 small piece.

do you think this will help cycle the tank?

I was thinking of getting either clownfish or domino (or 3 spot) damsels to cycle the tank also.

Will the 3-spot harass the clownfish later on? I have heard they are agressive.

Or, are clownfish good to cycle a tank? Because i would rather put one in there.


Also, my LFS has this salt solution, each bag is good for 5 gallons. How would i go about doing water cahnges? Do I need to use a bucket to dissolve the salt? If so, would i just check the water with the hydrometor and make sure it is SW saltinity, and I can add it to my tank?

Mainly what i want to know, is how much salt really makes a difference that can kill my fish? Im afaraid of adding too much, or not enough.

I can use the penguin/emperor filters in salt.. right?

Thanks for all of the help!

I would also like to see this study. Bio wheels do nothing more then live rock, it's just really good at what it does.



Dan

Hmm, I have yet to read these studies that say that the Bio-wheels + live rock is not optimal. Can you post the links, or give reference to these? As I am really interested in reading them.



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There is always a bigger fish...

Your budget calculates out to $16.

Get a larger budget. If not, I would not attempt.

Bio-wheels + live rock is not optimal. There have been many studies on the idea. All of which prove the bio-wheel a poor choice.

DO NOT CYCLE WITH A FISH.

Drop in some live rock. If it isn't much, you can drop in a chunk of raw shrimp (the kind you eat).

Honestly, with a $15 budget I wouldn't even try.

You should really have a larger budget to start a saltwater aquarium... I wouldn't go into it with anything less then $50 -$75 just incase something comes up that you need... You really can't boot-strap a salt water aquarium...

Last edited by john.stone at 21-Nov-2004 18:25

Ok, thanks.

So you guys are saying i should just put a piece of liverock (Im only planning on getting a pound, since it costs so much money) and wait for it to cycle?

After it cycles, i can add my fish?

Oh yea, i would go big, but im on a $15 budget.

($6 for LR, $4 for salt, $6 for fish)

I have never heard of a bio wheel causing a algea bloom. Algea generally comes from phosphates caused from water changes from tap water. Bio wheels convert nitrates really fast. Live rock also does this. You can end up with a lot of nitrate in the tank. I still run a bio wheel in my reef tank and I have 125 pounds of live rock, and it causes no problems.

A 10 gal tank is a very small tank and will be a lot of work. Bigger is better, os if you can swing a larger tank, then get it.

That tank will only house one very small fish.

It's best to not cycle the tank with fish, live rock will cycle it for you.

You premix your water for water changes. Then remove 10% to 20% of the water, then add the new water after it is the same temp and salinity.

And yes, you can use a emporer HOB filter in salt.



Dan