FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Hi all ,

I am new to this forum and have few question . Please answer straight forward , i'm very confused already :0)

I was thinking to start a saltwater tank ( a have an fresh water tank in the living room ) . I've been reading this forum and it;s getting more and more confussing . Here is what im thinkg to get : aprox 60 gal. hexagon shape , live rocks ( general opions is that they help ) fish only , no more then 4 or 5 .

Can you tell me exactly what equipment i need to get ? filters , lights... everything A to Z .

In one post in this forum a member posted this link http://www.oceansmotions.com/ <-- what is this plumbing system? would i need it ?

THank you

Hello Camy and Welcome to FishProfiles---the Dark Side

Okay. First off- keeping marine fish is a big change from keeping FW fish. Most of the fish aren't more difficult to keep, but rather, the water conditions aren't as easy to maintain. You need to test for more elements, and there isn't a big range, either you're levels are good or bad, which can be kind of frusturating sometimes. :%)

Taking the plunge into the marine hobby means several things. It means research, dedication, patience, $$$ and the desire to keep all these things up for many, many years to come.

It sounds like you have already started to research a little bit. To help you a little bit more, I'll explain the tank types to you.

Fish Only tanks:
FO tanks are saltwater tanks that just have usually fake corals and normal aquarium decor. And just like the title says, usually only fish are kept in them. Doh. The lighting for this tank is just based on what YOU like to see, whether you add blue with actinic bulbs, or have regular flourescents. You should probably have a HOB filter and a cannister filter for this kind of set up.

Fish Only with Live Rock tanks:
FOWLR tanks are saltwater tanks that have live rock as the basis of their biological filtration. This mimics the natural habitat of most marine fishes and will benefit your set up greatly! It is very important to pick out good quality live rock. Healthy live rock should be porous and contain healthy hitchhikers. The most common LR that will work well for most if not all tanks, is Fiji. For effective filtration, you should have at least a pound of LR per gallon of water, and then add more to fill out the tank as needed or preferred. This sounds like the type of set up you are most interested in. The best part about FOWLR tanks is that often enough they can be upgraded to reef (see below) tanks, the most beatiful of the saltwater world. To have a healthy FOWLR set up, I wouldn't have less than 3wpg.

Reef tanks:
Reef tanks are our way of having mini slices of the ocean right in our own homes. These saltwater tanks are home to much live rock and live sand, pods, inverts, fish, and corals of course!! There are three basic types of corals, softies, LPS, and SPS. Without the right lighting, corals cannot survive. For example, SPS corals like the acropora need intense lighting, which should almost always be metal halide. To keep lower light corals, I'd have probably at least 5wpg, although some can be successfully kept with less. The type of lighting you go with depends on the type of corals you choose to keep, the depth of your tank, etc.

Okay. *sigh of relief* Now that that's over with, I'll talk about your tank a little more.

I would not recommend a 65 hex for a FOWLR set up like you want to do. Because hex tanks are abnormally high, there is not a lot of surface area, and thus not a whole lot of room for gas exchange. In addition, it's hard to have a nice rock work set up in a tall tank. You want to go with something longer, and wide. 55 gallon tanks are great because they are 4' long, but being only 13" wide, they make sucky FOWLR and terribly reef tanks. I suggest a 75 gallon. They have a nice layout. A 90 has a good layout too, but it's deeper, which may effect your lighting a bit more. And if you're still craving bigger than that, go with a 125. With saltwater tanks, or actually probably any tank for that matter, bigger is better! People claim they "Just want to start small" but in reality, a bigger tank is easier to maintain, to some extent. There is not nearly as much room for error. The larger water volume helps keep levels safe and steady. The littler problems aren't as e to wiping out a whole tank. Small traces of toxic elements can be dealt with easier in a big tank than in a small one. Get the gist? The only downside to a bigger tank is it's gunna suck in more money initially, but then again, what doesn't suck in money in this hobby?

*plants another money tree in her backyard*

So thats tank size. Now, I guess the next thing would probably be substrate, which of course, you will probably want to use sand. When choosing a sand, make sure it's white aragonite (not silicate!) based. The sand bed is very important. It helps with NNR and buffering. It also provides a home for things like sand sifting stars, and other cool critters. Southdown playsand from HomeDepot works fine in marine tanks, as will almost any other brand you find at your LFS or that satisfies the above qualities.

Cycling- I'm sure you already know about this since you said you have an established freshwater tank. It works basically the same in marine tanks, except it may take a little bit longer. You can cycle with LR () or hardy fish if you chose...

Next I guess I'll talk about water circulation. This is one big difference between fresh and salt water tanks. It's important to stay away from "dead" areas in marine tanks, which is why we have the lovely inventions of powerheads and wavemakers! The person you heard talking about the Oceans Motions unit was probably me, as they are my favorite form of water circulation. There are other systems similar to it, like the Tunze system for example. These are VERY pricey, and not *probably* not necessary unless you're going to keep corals and have a reef tank. The way you provide circulation in your tank in going to depend on what size tank you decide on, but if you go with a 75 gallon, the 4-way OM unit would be my vote. I will say the plumbing is a little tricky though, so I hope you are or know a DIY person who is good with PVC pipe.

The most obvious thing after this would probably be the salt. There are many types of brands, and you should be very scrupulous when choosing one. You need to make sure that the salt you choose will keep your pH and trace elements at safe levels. You need to be consistent with the brand you choose, so make sure you get one you like. The most common brands include Kent, Instant Ocean, Red Sea... My personal choice would be AquaMedic. Again, a bit pricey, but well worth it, in the long run.

Test kits will be your new best friend. Choosing a test kit is very important, mostly during the cycling stage. After that, you will really only need to test when something seems wrong, or when you're adding new specimens to the tank. Salifert is the best kit on the market IMO. Saliferts tests are lab quality, and are expensive (and complicated looking!) for this reason. I know my Calcium test has 3 bottles to it...just for one test! You dont really need to get such high quality tests for all your levels. The more common ones (saltwater pH, ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte) should be fine with Tetra or Red Sea's master kits.

Here is a list of what the levels in a marine/reef tank should probably look like:

Temperature- 78*F-82*F
Salinity- 34-36ppm
SG- 1.023ish
pH- 8.2-8.3
Alkalinity- 6-11dKH
Ammonia- zero
NitrIte- zero
NitrAte- <20mg/L
Phosphate- <0.05mg/L
Calcium- 375-475mg/L
Dissolved Oxygen- >6.90mg/L

To keep your temperature correct, you're obviously going to need heaters. Get ones with exact temperature dials, like Ebo-Jagers (Eheim) or Tronics. Tronics are my favorite but only go up to 200 watts, so I got Ebo's instead, which are also known for their reliability and accuracy. You're going to need accurate thermometers too. Depending on the type of set up/lighting and temperature of your house, you may also need a chiller, which I'm not going to get into right now since I know next to nothing about them.

To keep your water quality in tip top shape I strongly recommend a protein skimmer. You know how when you visit the ocean, you see the foam crashing up against the shore? Well a PS is kind of like an artificial foam maker. It will purify over 90% of the contaminants in your water if you get a good one. A good brand again would be AquaMedic but there are a ton of nice ones on the market. It all depends again on tank size and how much money you're willing to spend.

Along with filration comes tank sumps and refugiums, something commonly not seen in freshwater tanks. A reef ready fish tank is known as one that is predrilled, meaning it has an overflow box with holes (2 of them per overflow I think) in it. Benefits of having a fuge? Hides equipment, increases water volume, can be used to culture live natural foods like copepods and mysid shrimp, and benefits filtration. RR tanks are the best type of tanks for a saltwater set up. Most LFS' will not have these in stock, but should be able to order one of your choice easily as they are very common and known to the marine world. I know we can get most RR tanks in within a week at the store I work at. My tank is a RR 72 gallon bowfront, which is a great size for a reef or fowlr set up, but is a pain in the butt to find a good sump tank for b/c of the dimensions...

Other random things you will may need are a stand and canopy, timers, a rubbermaid tub or garbage pail for premixing/heating your saltwater in for water changes, power strips (lots of plugs involved in this project! lol) algae magnets, siphons, oh the list goes on and on, I think I could sit here and think of more things for ever.

The biggest mistake people make when setting up a saltwater tank is not doing their research. I can't stress this enough. The people here on the forums can be very helpful, as I have learned, but no matter what, you need to be willing to invest the time to read and do some things on your own. Head over to your local library and see what books you can find. Check the copyright dates, as new discoveries in marine technology and critters is always developing. Personal favorite reads of mine are Reef Invertebrates by Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner, and the Pocket Guide to Marine Fishes by Scott W. Michaels. Reef Inverts covers everything you need to know. It's much more elaborate than the info I posted here, but Calfos sense of humor makes it a fun read. It talks all about set up, and I highly recommend it. Marine Fishes will lead you through the 500 most common species in this hobby, and tell you the care requirements and whatnot for each. It will become your Bible when it comes to ID'ing new shishies, I promise.

Some websites to check out, for articles, products, forums and more:

[link=http://www.oceansmotions.com]http://www.oceansmotions.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(Which I think you already visited)

[link=http://www.reefcentral.com]http://www.reefcentral.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(Which has free sign up, a huge message board, and some very informative articles on the left hand side which you should def. read)

[link=http://www.marinedepot.com]http://www.marinedepot.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(Best site for marine products on the net]

[link=http://www.drsfosterandsmith.com]http://www.drsfosterandsmith.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(another good site for equipment)

[link=http://www.bigalsonline.com]http://www.bigalsonline.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(yet another good site for equipment)

[link=http://www.phishybusiness.com]http://www.phishybusiness.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(check out the tank cleaner packages here)

[link=http://www.marinedepotlive.com]http://www.marinedepotlive.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(see corals and fish here)

[link=http://www.liveaquaria.com]http://www.liveaquaria.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(see more corals and fish here)

[link=http://www.aquabid.com]http://www.aquabid.com" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(the eBay for aquarists!)

[link=http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/begin-cycling.asp]http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/begin-cycling.asp" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]
(FP article on cycling)

And I think that's all I have to say for now.

Just keep in mind, no matter what type of tank you want to set up, that nothing in a marine tank happens quickly. Take your time, it's well worth it! Dont rush things, and have patience. Do your research, your fish will thank you! Be willing to spend money, and be willing to dedicate your time to this. Fish tanks aren't just a hobby, they're an investment.

If you'd like, I'll add another post later on beginners fish, and what to stay away from. But right now I've gotta head to the gym. I think I spend way too much time online. :%)

I hope this information helped a little bit. Please check out the links I provided you with, they will help a lot. In addition, here's a couple more on recent threads on new saltwater tanks that have been posted here, reading through these may help you a little bit as well.

[link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/General%20Marine/55324.html]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/General%20Marine/55324.html" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]

[link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/General%20Marine/54608.html]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/General%20Marine/54608.html" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]

[link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Marine%20Setup/56071.html]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Marine%20Setup/56071.html" style="COLOR: #3c4e82[/link]

Okay. I'm really done now. Hopefully some of the other experienced salties will help a little more than I can, as my tank is sitting filled with dustbunnies instead of fish at this moment.

Best of luck. And I'm way too lazy to proof-read this, so excuse any typos or terrible sentences please.

-Ferret



[hr width='40%'][font color="#000080"]I want to stand with you on a mountain,
I want to bathe with you in the sea,
I want to live like this forever,
Until the sky falls down on me…[/font]

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

I just wanted to say thanks for that posting...it was really informative...

Very well put together reply. I love the helpfull members on this forum. By the way, welcome to fishprofiles.com!!! You will learn much here. Being a successful marine aquarist is like being a marine bioligist without a degree. There is so much information out there.

I'll first tell you that this hobby is very $$$. There is no cheap way to do it, you'll end up paying for it in the long run. I agree with Ferretfish about the hex, try and get something more traditional if you can. I have a 35 gallon freshwater tank that is extremely hard to clean.

Go with the Live Rock, its the only way to go. Expensive, but well worth it. Try and get a tank that has an overflow pre-drilled. Remember about going the cheap road, NOT the way to go. The only cheap suggestion I have is to try and by a used, good quality tank. New tanks are so expensive. You can usually find really good steals in the classifieds in the papers or ebay. 60 gallons is a good size starting out. The bigger the system, the easier (re-phrased: more mistakes you can make).

Do some research before you decide to buy a single thing. Plan out your system and budget beforehand. This forum can help you with a lot, but it can't take your wallet away from you. If you live in a big city there are usually 1 or 2 good pet stores or fish shops. Find those places and make them do the job they get paid to do. Shopping for a fish tank can be like shopping for a car. There are some shady people out there. You took the first step in the right direction by joining this site.

Last peice of advice I have for you and probably the most important. Its only 1 word: PATIENCE!!!!! Don't waste your money and time by jumping into it. Its the hardest thing to do as well. All the work on my tank is nothing compared to the struggle to be patient. Your already spending a grip for your stuff, you don't want to lose all of it because you were too impatient.

This is the stuff that I started out with for my system which has been running for 6 months. I went for the "cheap" road and had to redue most of my stuff. Total cost for all of this was about $2500:

70 gallon via aqua with matching stand
60 lbs Live Rock (bio filter) Added 10 lbs
50 lbs catalina dry sand
10 lbs agagonite
10 lbs live sand
AquaClear 110 (Mechanical, chemical filter) Not used
Aqua C. Remora Pro hang on skimmer (Must have)
Rio 1100 pump (Circulation) Upgraded to wavemaker
90 watts Flor. lights Upgraded to Coralife p.c.'s
Marineland 220 watt heater Still using.

Thats just the main stuff. Theres so much more money to be spent on all the other stuff. A really good book to buy is "The New Marine Aquarium" by Michael Palleta. To me its the best book for beginners. You could spend just as much money on books as your fish tank.

I hope this helps. Good luck and have fun spending money!!!

Thanks alot for the advises .
Here is waht ive accomplished already : got a tank bowl front 46 gal , , bought play sand from home depot ( altough i did rinse the sand 6 times , the water is marron like a pot of tea ... i have not added the salt since i am not sure if the sand is ok??? .. Please advise ) also got a dry/wet filter and protein skimmer by AMIRACLE ( is it good ? ) for up to 75 gal tanks ..... Now am i on the right track ?? please say yes lol

What kind of sand did you get? It almost sounds like you have the wrong sand. It should be southdown sand and will make your tank white like milk.

Dan


Dan

I got play sand from home depot , the only kind of play sand they had , th color of it is brown ... and the water looks dirty brown ..... what color is the southdown sand?

Last edited by camy10 at 16-Mar-2005 07:22

Camy, South Down is white. The thing is, you want a calcium based sand. And actually, South Down no longer goes under that name though. But Home Depot, does carry the brand that it goes under now. Look for sand marked as Calcium based, or it will say "pure Caribean beach sand". The reason for this, is the calcium will help to buffer the water hardness up, and keep it up there. As well, it will help to buffer the ph in the same way. The brown sand, is most likely silicate sand, and is innert. In other words, it will not affect the water in any way. If you cannot find another sand that states it is Caribean sand, or calcium based, then I would suggest you get Aragonite sand from your lfs. Yes it will cost you more, but it too is Caribean sand, and you will be much more satisfied in the end.

HTH....

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

I found at my local petland Ultra Reef Marine Sand , is that a calcium based sand ?

That's what I thought, you have the wrong sand. You could ask them when they plan to order some. Planing season is coming up so the garden shop should start to get it's stock.

Dan


Dan

I am almost sure it is Camy, just ask the manager, if it does not say on the bag. It may just say something like, "Natural Ocean Sand", or "Natural Beach Sand". Something that says it is authentic sand from the ocean.

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

I went to my local pet shop and bought Live Sand aragonite 40 lb , i want to use this sand and add live rocks , is it ok ? Also i put water in the tank then salt added the live sand but haven't yet got the filter going because of the below issue :

I just got my new wet/dry filter wit a swap and now i need a water pump , how big would be enough for a 46 gal tank ? with this set up i also need a power head to move the water ? Also the output tube end of it , how deep it has to be in the tank ??

I posted this wuestion in general marine forum but got no response so far ...
THank you all for help

Last edited by camy10 at 17-Mar-2005 11:23