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Moondog

Planaria are little tiny white worms that often live on plants and in the gravel of aquariums. You usually will not see them as they try only to come out at night. This is when you may see them climbing the glass. When there is too much food in the gravel bed, their populations can get explosive. They are harmless and provided they are not a heavy population, make a good food source for some smaller fish that like to eat them. When I put water in the tank a few planaria will fall from the hornwort and float through the water wiggling. This is when a fry will snatch it up.

ah, i think i have some of these in my 10g. i found some really really really tiny wormy things (about 1-2mm tops) in the gravel when i was trying to catch a different bug. (there's an attempt at a pic of it in general fw if you're interested) anyway, when i caught this other bug there were a couple of these tiny white wormy things. could that be planaria?

---

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

Cory there very few planaria (plan=flat aria=worm) that are harmless as most varieties tend to be parasitic in nature. one common non parasitic planaria is the crosseyed flatworm. but planaria are cool we have some in our bio classroom and we just did a lab with them were we cut them and are watching the halves regenerate. the planaria we have at school eat liver .

[span class="edited"][Edited by Megil Tel'valar 2004-03-19 15:28][/span]

My tank had lots of planaria when I added plants (came in on them), and all my fish did was snack on them. I think they can be a threat to smaller fry, but these guys did well with them. They can easily snack on these. I would think they would be more a threat to smaller fry.

i agree you may indeed have non parasitic planaria probably the crosseyed planaria as they are found in ponds and creeks

Most species of flatworms are active carnivores. The protruding pharynx is visible, as the worm feeds on the daphnia abpve. The mouth is at the end of this extension. The pharynx will pin down the prey while enzymes secreted from the mouth soften the tissue. The mouth sucks in the food and digestion is completed inside the cells.

but as it says most are carnivoroes.

anyways thought id give you the heads up that most flat worm (i.e. tapeworms) are parasitic

OK People - Here we go, with a few pics from Week 4; Day 28.

All is well and these two continue to grow. Still no signs of the crazy swimming patterns shown by Fry A in the week before he died. *Phew*

I don't want to jinx my babies, but I am breathing a more optimistic sigh of relief.

Over the next few pics you will notice that one has a clearly defined dorsal fin, and one does not. The one that does is Fry "B", the second biggest, and Fry "C" is the smallest, but closely catching up size wise. I've been wondering if I have a ranchu in the making with no dorsal . I think I'm seeing early signs of it.


This is Fry "C" - no dorsal fin really visible yet.

[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-22 06:07][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
[img]http://www.fishprofiles.net/attachments/312949.jpg"]

Ahhhh - there is a dorsal coming in.

[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-22 06:10][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
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Here's Fry "B"

This one really shows how they are filling out.


[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-22 06:11][/span]
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And another....
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Fry "C" by the weeds....


Cory_Di attached this image:
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Looks like these two are doing really well, keep us posted

Di,

I find myself looking forward to Sundays so I can check out the latest pictures of your fry and see how much they've grown. It's very educational (not to mention fun) watching them develop into little fish!

-- Laura M.

Diane sounds like such a proud Mama!
And well she should be.

I would say I notice a behavioral change - for the good. It appears that these two "frolick" in a way they didn't when younger. They seem to like to dart around the the weeds and "hunt" for food.

I'll be proud when we get to three months. I can't wait until they get big enough for me to run that corner filter tho. It's painful doing daily bottom vacs with that straw. It's the only way I can pick up the old food so they eat new.

This is the first time I've looked back at week 3 pics of Fry "A" that died. It appears that Fry "B" is just now getting to that size. I know they are 29 days today, but I'm wondering just how many days prior fry "A" hatched. The bucket was there for about 4-5 days. I'll bet he hatched early by almost a week.

[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-22 21:18][/span]

It's painful doing daily bottom vacs with that straw.

on the other hand...Free drinks for everyone ...hmmmm yeah not so funny....

Great that things are starting to sound not quite so panicky . You breath a semi-sigh of relief, so do the rest of us.

*Wanders of to find baby name site, and wonders how soon the real names will come into play* ---not to jinx them of course .


^_^

I've thought about that too. They must be japanese names.

Mom and Dad's names are as follows:

Mom: Naomi (means, above all beautiful)

Dad1: Hisoki (means, Flame Tips)

Dad2: Yoshi (means....oops! can't remember)

I'll post pics of them later.

I thought I would attach pics of mom and dads.

Fry are doing well and getting bigger; filling out well.

This is Mom - all 2.5 inches of her. I think she is stunted from previously high nitrates in her last home.

Fry pics will follow either Sunday or Monday. I may not be able to get onto the net after switching to a new computer. I'll see how smoothly things go, but I have to dismantle what I have and go to a new system. The modem bothers me and internet hook up as it has been touchy. We'll see.

[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-26 17:35][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
[img]http://www.fishprofiles.net/attachments/317091.jpg"]

This is daddy ryukin. The bowl was my idea of a real fishbowl


[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-26 17:32][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
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Here is daddy oranda:


Cory_Di attached this image:
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Gorgeous fish and even better pics..

I thought it would be interesting to add that I read somewhere that goldies release a growth restriction hormone that can only be removed with water changes. There was an experiment with two identical fish from the same place, fed the same food, in the same sized pond in the same area etc, only one pond had regular water changes while the other constantly had a fresh supply of water pumped through it. The one that was constantly in the fresh water grew much bigger, faster.

Now of course that could be chalked up to nitrates, as obviously they wouldn't be the same in each pond, and there are some other variables that aren't controlled in that experiment. But apparently there is a hormone.

Maybe that's why Naomi is stunted. Just a sidebar

I believe it was nitrates as high nitrates are believed to be involved in stunting and overall poor health (we're talking 200+)

Ok more Mom and Dad pics. I hope y'all don't mind. I saw the opportunity tonite. I had just shut the light on the tank off about an hour eariler and had a dim room light on. All were totally relaxed and suspended, almost limp-like. They were apparently "sleeping" or in a semi-sleep state.

Here is one of Naomi - the mom:


Cory_Di attached this image:
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Here is another of Naomi, totally relaxed.


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This is Yoshi and he is just chilling out


Cory_Di attached this image:
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And, of course Hisoki. He was further in the tank so the pic is not as clear.

This pic clearly reveals the tubercles on the gill plate, which all mature males get. They are sometimes mistaken as ick. These are white or creamy white bumps, probably about the size of ich, but they are confined to the gill plates.



[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-27 22:08][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
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This is the full 36 gal bowfront tank so you can see their relative size. It is 30 inches wide and 21 inches tall. The width at the center is 15 inches.


Cory_Di attached this image:
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And, the last pic of today, the three together

Tomorrow fry pics.


Cory_Di attached this image:
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I'm not a goldie fan but seeing that tank is really something else. They look great in there!!

Goldies have beautiful personalities. They are smarter than most fish and are more like pets, imho. I know many people pooh-poohed my decision to go with goldies when I pondered my options. I'm really glad I went with my own decision, rather than make another community tank full of fish that don't know me from anyone else who comes in the room. I just love these guys.

Here are some new pics from Week 5. My babies are now 35 days old .

Here is the full 5.5 US gal tank and I have added a smallworld type filter on the right. You can see one of the fry at the bottom of the tank.

The water was just getting too full of particulate matter. This filter cleared up the water like crystal clear in a matter of an hour or so and isn't too strong for them. In another two weeks, I'll probably go up to a corner filter (triple sided).



[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-28 13:59][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
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Here is Fry A the bigger of the two, but not by much. He has a more clearly defined dorsal fin that his sibling.


Cory_Di attached this image:
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Fry B is in this picture. Note the lack of dorsal fin.
Cory_Di attached this image:
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Another pic of Fry A next to the small world filter.


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And a pic of the two together:


Cory_Di attached this image:
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I'm having an interesting problem and don't know what to make of it. The fry go after a piece of food (spec in the water) and then try to eat it, and miss. They do this repeatedly all day today. They are going after bigger objects in the water that aren't food and can't eat them, so I crushed goldfish flakes so that they were small, but a little bigger than their regular food. They managed to eat a few, but not much. I even tried bbs and that didn't work. The only thing I can figure is that with algae growing on the tank walls they are filling up. I hope this is the case as this has me just a little concerned. Water quality is still very good.

They are looking good Diane, how big are they now? As long as they are eating some of the crushed food I'm sure they are getting enough.

I hope so Lyn. I could see them grabbing one spec after another. I've been wondering about reflections from the bottom of the tank confusing them, but they have been living with it for some time. I wanted to add gravel in there, but it will be more difficult to get the gunk out. When I get a corner filter in there, I'll put gravel in and start vacuuming less.

It's hard to say how long they are. I have to guess they are almost half an inch or 12.5 mm, with the tail. They are not getting longer, as much as they are filling out so they may even only be about 10mm.

I can see my runt will not have the beautiful finnage that his sibling has. Note the difference in tails, as well as the dorsal. I still love them both anyway. They have a place in my home as long as they are living. My mother even offered to let me put a tank in her room for them .

[span class="edited"][Edited by cory_di 2004-03-28 20:41][/span]

My mother even offered to let me put a tank in her room for them

I see you've got her hooked now.
They sure are looking good, it'll be interesting to see what they look like once they mature.

There's a recipe for homemade fry food in the following link:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/thread.asp?id=33063

I made some for my platy fry a few weeks ago, and theylove it -- because it's ground to a silky powder in the food processor, they seem better able to eat it. And they've been growing really well since I started feeding it.

Lovely pics of the parents , I hadn't gotten a chance to say so before....
and those fry are big now

Would less light on the tank help with the reflections problems, hornwort doesn't need all that much right?

I know there's no way to stop them eating what they want to eat, but is that much algae good for their growth I suppose they wouldn't eat it if it wasnt.... hmmm

^_^

I dunno. I'm spacing it out every four hours or so today to see if I can make them hungry . I saw them taking in food and one pooped really well this morning, so they are eating .

Interesting recipe Laura. I'll consider it.

Wow Cory, they are both looking really well, I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to get gravel in there, keep it as is, it will go a long way to wards helping with the water quality Lots of Goldie keepers don't have gravel and prefer to keep a bare bottomed tank to help with keeping everything clean, I am at the moment reducing the amount of gravel in my Goldie's tank, by a handful every other water change, and I can honestly say it makes siphoning the poop off a lot easier.

I agree TeeBee. My goldie tank has 1/2 inch sized gravel (12.5 mm roughly) which was recommended by Doc Johnson to prevent "rockitis" since goldies like to sift through them. Inevitably they will get one stuck in their throat and it will need to come out. I made mine just over a single layer, just enough to cover the bottom. I feel this works the best.

I am going to keep a bare tank for a while. But, I can't wait to put my 3-sided corner filter in there with some floss and activated carbon. I'm going to wait until Easter weekend when I expect to be home alot for several days to make the switch. I worry the smaller one will wander too close and won't be able to get away. It needs filtration tho, that's for sure.

Seeing as how they grow so quick, so this plan wouldn't be for too long any way...

Maybe you could find a container, that you could use for a temporary home for the smaller fry. Putting the sponge filter and some of the water from the main tank in to it,(which you would be getting rid of in a water change any way) until the little fella is bigger, which isn't going to be too long

Put the corner filter in the main tank as you wanted to, and then when junior is big enough, pop him back in with his mate.

I don't know how goldie fry compare size-wise to platy fry. But I had a HOB filter on the tank that my platies were born in -- I'd quarantined the mother because I thought she was sick (duh!) and I had to go away for five days; I didn't want her dying in the main tank while I was gone. Instead, when I came back, I was rather stunned to find that she was not only alive and kicking, but the "quarantine" tank was full of platy fry.

At that point, I panicked, thinking they were going to get torn apart in the filter intake. But none of them had trouble avoiding it -- I even checked inside it to see whether any had gotten sucked in, but they hadn't.

So the smaller goldie might do fine ...

It's true that livebearer fry can usually handle small power filters. I would say the corner filter with a tiny pump running it will be even less powerful than the smallest of power filters. Both may do fine.

I considered separating them, but this would be even more work and I'm spread really thin and exhausted with two classes. I'm in class until nearly 10 pm each each day and I get up at 4:30, sometimes 5. I usually don't fall asleep until 11 or 12. I try to do a water change daily at night.

Maybe with the long weekend coming up I can do it. I want to be home to monitor them. I may go out and buy a 10 gallon for them sometime soon. It will be their next temporary home . I need a 10 gal anyway for a goldie hospital tank. My plan after school lets out is to start gutting another corner of my very full basement (with a lot of junk I can really get rid of ). I'm planning on a 29 gal for them. I'm hoping to someday reunite all of my goldies in a 125 gal. That would be 25 gallons each and hopefully enough. I'm praying that these will be females. Somewhere I read that hatch temp governs the sex of goldie fry. I can't find it any place since i read it that once

Unfortunately, both of my orandas have swim bladder disorder that comes and goes intermittently. I will probably have two tanks - one with swim bladder goldies an one with non-swim bladder goldies. The less I feed the better, but even that doesn't help 100%. After noticing white feces, I hit the tank up with an internal dewormer (very safe) and found long white threads (2), on some plants. These were like 30 and 50 mm long. I didn't think to pull them out and take them somewhere for analysis. There was an immediate improvement in both orandas and the female made about a 90% recovery all the way around. The male, however, got better for a while then went backwards and narrow feces started up again. I dosed the tank again and a second time saw a long white thread coming from him and he had some improvement, but not as much as the first time. I have since contacted a vet who is willing to do fecal analysis if I can get a sample to him that is less than 12 hours old.

I am hoping and praying that my two babies are the product of the Ryukin dad, not the oranda. The Ryukin, surprisingly has absolutely no sign whatsoever of swim bladder disorder. If the oranda is the dad, I'm apt to end up with one big tank full of mostly bobbing goldies.

Week 6 Pics

I had midterms this week and a group project that got left for yesterday as a result . I took many pics, but only had time to format these.

Fry B biggest of the 2 left (of 4 originals). He is causing me some concern over a bump under his chin. I'm not sure whether it is just "him" or if it is something else. He seems to chew, chew and chew. Unfortunately, I did not check this out before putting food in the tank this morning .

Fry C is of the greatest concern. He is the runt and is showing signs of emaciation. I've stepped up feeding of bbs to try to turn him onto food, but his brain seems wired for live food. He wrestles with an occassional planaria he pulls of the side or bottom glass, or the sponge, but there are fewer and fewer of them. I've ordered a microworm culture, but I don't know if it will get here in time.

As Forrest Gump would say, "Nature is, as Nature does...and that's all I have to say about that."

EDIT: Problems with the "Attach Picture" page. The window is only partially loading. I'll try to reattach later.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-04-05 05:59][/span]

OK - lets try this again. Read above on the difficulties I'm having with the fry.

Here is Fry B - the bigger of the two (I hope)

Note the bulge under and behind the throat area. This has me a little concerned. He is very lively, energetic and feeding actively so I have to just hope and pray it is nothing serious.



[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-04-05 17:31][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
[img]http://www.fishprofiles.net/attachments/324960.jpg"]

Well, I tried twice to upload another pic of Fry B, but it's not happening. For some reason that one pic is much larger so its not taking.

Here's a grainy pic of the two together. You can see apparent emaciation in the Fry C.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-04-05 17:41][/span]
Cory_Di attached this image:
[img]http://www.fishprofiles.net/attachments/324978.jpg"]

Oh Dear Diane!! It's sounding a bit dicey for Fry C. He definately appears to be quite thin.
I'm crossing my fingers for you.

I may have found something that works for now. I have some of that Tetra Nature's Delica (a paste food in a packet with daphnia). I put a small blob on the tank floor and it was disappearing. He looked a little more up yesterday evening, but I don't know for a fact that he was snacking on it or if it was the other. The bigger one will eat anything that is in front of him - big contrast. THe little guy goes right up to it and if it doesn't move, he moves on.

I'm not sure that the smaller of the fry has something wrong with it...I will keep my fingers crossed for you that one is of the pot bellied varieties and the smaller one is not.

I hope so. That microworm culture should be here any day and the guy said I should be able to take a few microworms from it when I get it. He said four days to get it fully up to speed. I plan on getting two or three cultures going at once after it is established.

Well Fry C does know how to hold out for the good stuff ....

^_^

I was hoping to raise these fry almost exclusively on Hikari First Bites. Just look at that big fella. He is in really good shape and he just eats and eats all that Hikari. It's chock full of vitamins and minerals critical to development. Too bad the little one doesn't eat the stuff.

Some babies are just plain fussy!!!!

I hope his fussiness doesn't kill him

Maybe his early fussiness didn't result in problems, but I think his tiny little body (and head) are trying to grow faster than he wants to eat.

That's what makes him look emaciated - larger head, abdomen sunken in. Yet, he wants to eat.

cute, cute pictures cory

See my profile (link below) for fish and setup.

Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.

How's Charlie doing today? Has he had any worms yet?

Hard to tell. Got the microworm culture today. http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/thread.asp?id=35655

These critters are much tinier than I ever anticipated. Now I see why they can feed them when bbs are being fed. I don't know if "Charlie" sees them. But the fish do pick off the bottom and that is where they drop. Hopefully, they are sucking them up. A few days will tell. I'm very satisified with the culture I received from the Bug Farm. A lot less work than bbs and you can steal from new cultures you make several times daily and the microworms don't outgrow the fry .

More pics coming tomorrow.

Also, Fry C - aka "Charlie" appears to be checking out. I was going to euthanize, but decided to just wait and see. He doesn't appear to be suffering, but just parking himself in the java moss and heading into "deep" sleeps. He appears exhausted. I'm just leaving him be and have shut the tank light to keep things dim. If I hadn't disturbed him once or twice, he would have passed. I think it is for the better. The little guy is looking more and more malnourished and very underdeveloped. Maybe he had his mothers curse - that crazy mouth. All I know is he couldn't even seem to find the microworms. I often wondered if he was able to see that well.

I fully expect him to be expired by tomorrow morning. But, I'm leaving it up to him. If he is still alive and too weak to move about, I may have to help him along.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-04-10 18:21][/span]

Awwwww, I'm really sorry Diane

At least Charlie had it good for a while. He'll go to a better place, I'm sure.

---

They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

Oh Diane, I'm really sorry to hear that. I know you've been trying so hard.

That little bugger is hanging on. I came home from an Easter vigil and found him foraging for food in the open area.

Part of me feels obligated to euthanize since his development is so poor. The other half of me wants to allow him to follow his instincts and fight back - he may surprise all of us.

He packs himself tightly into the weeds as if he senses his vulnerability - a last ditch attempt at self preservation, as futile as it may be.

If at any point I sense he is suffering, I will have to help him along. However, I may not see him eat, yet I see him poop - so he is getting food.

This is tough now I wonder if I ever want to raise fry
I do hope the little guy makse it

^_^

Well, he was hiding in the java moss this morning, and came out to feed. The little guy wants to live, there's no doubt. I don't know if I'm prolonging the inevitable, but as long as he is eating I have to let him do his thing. I'll leave it up to him. With some poop coming out, he is obviously eating despite my not seeing him take any in.

I'm going to be delayed with pictures, being easter

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-04-11 11:21][/span]

wow i just spent like an hour reading this thread!!!!! this has to be the longest ongoing thread ever....hahaha
o well good luck with them anyway!
im a common goldfish breeder myself, so if you have any questions feel free to ask and hopefully i can help!

Not the longest Jim check out this one http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/thread.asp?id=28847&page=36
We are all hanging by a thread waiting for Diane's latest update on the fry and everyday I breathe a big sigh of releif when she says Charlie is still hanging in there. I'm really rooting for the little guy.

even *that* isn't the longest thread ever! there was a thread some years ago called "YEAH!!!!!" that was some 100+ pages by the end (or so the legend goes.... )

---

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

Week 7 + 1 Day

Charlie is gone, and I do mean gone. Searched for over an hour and for a 5.5 gallon tank, that means I double, triple checked everything. Took out every last piece of java moss and hornwort and visually inspected each and every branch. Neither filter was strong enough to suck him in and the grates were too narrow for him to fit through on the one that stuck to the glass. I had a bare tank and no Charlie. I even checked the bucket I had siphoned the water into the night before and hadn't dumped. No Charlie. I then checked the siphon tube. No Charlie. I have to conclude that his tank mate has disposed of him . I think he had a midnight snack one nibble at a time since he was too big to fit in his mouth. Not even so much as a head left in the tank.

R.I.P. Charlie - It wasn't meant to be.

I was planning to euthanize him this morning and it looks like I should have done so sooner. It now makes sense why he was hiding so deeply into the java moss. His tank mate was probably picking on him, unbeknownst to me. I never saw it personally.

With only one fry left out of the original 4, I feel it is appropriate to now name my last little guy (or girl). Regardless of gender, this fish will now be known as "Nemo". I find it very appropriate.

It worked out for the best I must admit, because Charlie wasn't strong enough for anything greater than a sponge filter and the tank was demanding more. It was placing both fry at risk not getting stronger filtration. I have since placed a three-sided corner filter with gravel (to hold it down), activated carbon, and filter floss). It is connected to a very weak pump, but is giving much better flow than what I had before.

EDIT: Here's the new setup starting below. I'm having trouble attaching again (webpage is incomplete so I can't continue). I'll try again later if it doesn't work now.

EDIT 2: Rebooted my computer twice and am having no luck. I left a message in Site Feedback for Adam, but may just need to wait it out. This happened once before and the next day I was able to post pictures again.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-04-12 14:03][/span]

Well, people - Plan B

Goldfish Fry Pics for Weeks 6 and 7

You may want to set the slide show to slow to read the captions if you use it.

Goodbye charlie

The hideing in the java moss has me a bit worried about one of my zebra danios that's been refusing to eat and has been hideing in the hornwort alot...

And don't forget the word association that was well over 100 pages before it was locked and lost forever.


^_^

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Bye Charlie

He was in bad shape. I shouldn't have let it go on for as many days as I did. I now understand firsthand why some breeders euthanize the runts earlier. I hate to say Gary was right, but in this case he was .

I didn't mind a mild deformaty in my beautiful tank. But, I thought I would be dealing with a less beautiful dorsal fin or tail fins, not a fish that was starting to look like a crippled, malnourished little thing.

All I can hope for is that nothing freaky happens with Nemo. Such a young fish has much to conquer and anything can go south very easily. So, I wish Nemo well and hope he will fight his way into longevity

JimG - If you breed goldfish, have you ever fed your fry Microworms? I have a batch going and they are highly convenient. Nemo doesn't quite know how to react to them and almost waits for them to be nearly dead and not moving before he'll snack on them. What is your take? What do you feed?

I know Diane, but it's really tough to make that call when he was fighting so hard. It truly is survival of the fittest I guess. I guess we always hope for miracles

its alrite, out of the 100-1,000 eggs a fish lays, not all can survive.

Theres always next time cory, since the parents are still with you.

Awe Sorry to hear you lost the little one

It's ok. I thought it would have been better for him if I had euthanized him. But if he perished in the night and got picked away by Nemo, then at least he served a useful purpose. Incidentally, I found some unusually colored poopie on the tank bottom today. I would say it pretty much confirms my suspicion. It was fry-colored and there was lots of it.

My only concern now is the bump I see on the bottom of Nemo's chin. I'm really hoping this is just part of his head structure coming in, maybe ahead of the rest. He doesn't seem bothered by it and appears quite normal.

wow, raising egg layer fry is sure a lot more work than with the livebearers eh?
I am really moved by your touching shared experience! My boyfriend once said "Anything that is shared, is Spiritual"! Sure is true! Good luck with the remaining fry!
I will be following his journey to adulthood!
Cheers,
Koran.

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