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Mofish , Hi , I wound't be worried about the Oto's . It seems to me they will be fine with what you have planned . By the way do you plan to have any plants around your "river " of rocks in the foreground ?

Thanks lioness for the reply and the information on the ottos. I think I will do that and just get more ottos if I think I would need them. And thank you for complementing my stocking choice, I have always wanted to do that but all of my friends keep throwing fish at me to take care of because they are to lazy to, but I said 'ENOUGH! I want this tank to be what I want it to be.' (and then the log started )

Also thank you country fish. The future planting should end up being that the sand bed (on the right) will be FULL of crypts and the left side (gravel) will be somewhat sparse with mainly wisteria bordering the rocks, but the actutal black/rust(because of the diatoms) river rocks will not have anything planted in them.

Thanks again for the replies and I hope you will follow my thread!

EDIT: here is my future vision using copy-paste in 'Paint'
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/future.jpg


~Morgan~

Morgan,

Your future vision, and your copy paste skills, are very good

I cannot ignore the notion of only 2 Otos. I would advise against that. Here are a few reasons:

- Otos are schoalers and more happy in a group setting, and 2 is not quite a group
- Otos are shipped from Asia and it happens sadly enough rather often that not all of them make it.
- Otos are such "non-offensive" fish that you barely will notice them in the tank, from a visual and a bio-load perspective. You definately can handle 4.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes thank you Ingo. I have decided to get four of them but that darn LFS still haven't gotten them!

not too much happened this week but I did a little trimming. enjoy!

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-21.jpg


~Morgan~

MoFish, I'm not sure where you're at, but do you have a Petsmart within driving distance? They carry otos on a regular basis and at a pretty decent price.

I do have another question, just out of curiousity - why do you have your plants planted right up against the edges of the tank (the big crypt in particular)?

Listen! Do you smell that?

I don't want to get into the old debate over buying fish at a Pet-this or Pet-that, but I for sure would like to raise a warning:

There are huge quality differences between all kinds of stores, including the large chains and the LFSs. Not only when comparing one chain with another, but even within the same chain but a different location, does one find major differences in fish and other critter quality. There are many factors attributing to this behavior, one of which is "the person in charge" of the fish section.

Anyway, I would advise to carefully peruse the isles of fish in no-matter what store to get a feeling for how well the tanks are maintained. Lots of dead fish - not a good sign. Tanks with Ich but not under quarantine - not a good sign. And so forth.

And if all seems good, and if the store then has Otos as well, for sure go ahead and buy them.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

thanks lysaer and ingo for the reply,

yes I do have a petsmart near me and they do not carry ottos at all. i do have a LFS kind of close to me but they carry mostly cichlids and goldfish/koi.

and the reason why I have all my plants on the right side of the tank butted against the glass is because the whole sand bed is going to be planted with plants so it will be easier to plant the plants that way.

also thank you ingo for the warning about chain stores. I always pick out my fish miticulusly (sp).


~Morgan~

ARG! Must do a small rant on chain stores! We have a "Pet-this" (I love that term!) here in town and I do not think they are capable of maintaining any tank without ick. Their poor gouramis are particularly bad. To make it worse, they put the fish on sale increadibly cheap so some poor person is going to buy that sick fish and get all of their old fish sick too. Then back to the pet store to buy MORE sick fish.... Last time I was in the store they had orange and yellow "glofish" which were so obviously innocent zebra danios full of flourescent dye. Horrible! Anyway, I just prefer to support my LFS in every case possible. Their prices may be a few cents more but their quality and staff are excellent and unsurpassed in this area. I want them to stick around, my money isn't going to that big chain store!

Sorry about that... Keep in mind too, when checking out a fish dealer, that just because you don't see dead fish doesn't mean that they aren't dropping like flies. Maybe the staff are just very good about removing dead ones! Try to visit a store often, if possible, to get a better idea of how the fish are maintained. It can be tough to find a quality store sometimes!

Wherever you may choose to get them, good luck with your fish!

haha don't worry about you rant lioness, we ALL do it.

I have a small issue:
I had trimmed my wisteria (the one in the back) and it doesn't look like it would grow back. I cut it right where the "sections" met.
could some one help me?
thanks!


~Morgan~

Is it the top or bottom half that doesn't want to grow? You trimmed it on the 21st? Likely this is just a patience issue. It will take the plant a while to recover from the trimming. If it is the top half that doesn't grow...pinch off the lowest leaves when you plant it, this will encourage new roots to form and those low leaves could probably rot anyway. The new plant has to expend energy making new roots so it won't make new leaves for a while. If it is the bottom half that isn't growing...I don't know what to tell you other than wait longer. If it looks otherwise healthy you just need to give it more time...it doesn't hurt to make sure it isn't being shadowed or anything too.

EDIT: Sorry, I should have checked your trim picture before posting...bad bad me! You are refering to the tall wisteria in the back left? I don't see any reason why the leaves shouldn't come back. I just recently chopped up my first wisteria so can't offer experience on how long it will take, but with all my other stem plants a little bud group of new leaves will start off the edge of the cut and then take off from there. It will take some time though...have faith.

thanks for the reply lioness
and yes it is the bottom half.

so i guess that means i have to be patient now, doesn't it?


~Morgan~

In my experience, a trimmed bottom part of a wisteria stem is not always coming back. Sometimes, the only reason the stem did not die before the trimming was the fact that the top part was healthy and supplied the plant with enough "juice" to keep on growing. Once that part is trimmed off then there is not enough energy producing matter left to keep it up. On some of these occasions, the stem withers away rather quickly, on others, the balance between getting enough to grow and not having any new energy producing engine is tilted slightly one or the other way - this can conclude in minimal growth of the old part of the plant, or static appearance, or slow disintegration.

But in general, it is rather normal that one does not see new growth one day after trimming (as lioness said).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo for the input. Now that you mention it, it looks like to me that it could be a possibility that the wisteria doesn't grow back because the other leaves are the "above water" type and are getting old and falling off so I may just have to get some more wisteria but I will wait a while to make sure that it goes one way or another before I do anything.

I also noticed something that could be good news! I think that the diatoms are "toping out" because a lot of the old stuff that I don't scrape off (like the river rocks and gravel) are starting to turn a grey-ish color and it appears to be dying off. Could this be happening? but the diatoms on the plants is still going strong. What could it be?


~Morgan~

Hm,

that is an intriguing observation on the Diatoms, boggeling my mind

You know probably that they are actually tiny critters and not algae, right? They thrive on silica that is often found in new tanks and in particular in certain sands. Once you run out of excess silica then the population dies, but I don't remember if they change color (may well be though). Why they are still going on the leaves, I can only guess: As they are usually not the type of critter that floats, they prefer to stay put . The ones on the plants may be feeding on the silica in the water column that floats by. But somehow that does make not much sense, as water flows by the substrate as well . So - in what areas are the Diatoms turning gray?

In this phase of the tanks life one can never have enough fast growers. If you have easy access to Wisteria and other fast growers and if you can afford it then adding more of them for the time being is never a bad idea, as long as they are healthy. And give your wisteria stem some time, maybe move it into the brightest spot of the tank. If the stem is all mush then remove it as it would be already dead and only pollute the water.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here's a link with the circled parts that are turning grey.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-23.jpg

I think I might just go today and get some more plants . Now when my mom has to take me to the petstore I can tell her that "I can never have enought fast-growers. Geez mom!"

and the wisteria stem isn't mushy so I'll watch for that.
thanks!


~Morgan~

Hi,
Diatoms are a microscopic single cell plant. They secrete
walls of Silica (Si) as they grow. They get the Silica from
the silica (SiO2) dust found in our quartz based gravel.
New tanks, especially ones with regular gravel that
has not been throughly washed, and rewashed are
especially vulnerable to an outbreak of diatoms.
Occasionally too, our water supplies can contain SiO2
and in enough density cause outbreaks.

Once the source of Silica is used up or depleted the
diatoms will die off. You can either purchase Otto's to
eat the diatoms (they love it) or regular water changes
and gravel vacuuming will eventually remove most of the
Silica and the outbreak will cease.

In your case, as they die off, I would be cleaning the
now grayish coatings off everything and siphoning it out
of the tank.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

UH OH!!!

I have just discovered what I think is BBA - it's a deep/bright green that is on my small crypt and partly on some of the rocks. Can some one help me? I am going to remove the affected areas from the tank except the big rocks.

A quick over view of the tank:
the trimed wisteria stem is growing back. it has 2 tiny leaves that are about half a cenimeter. The top half has sprouted roots and is starting to grow again. The big crypt is not doing so well. The leaves are slowly dying off and no new growth. No new fish have been added (still no sign of the ottos )

EDIT: i think i just ID this as blue-green algea.


~Morgan~

Morgan,

There is a big difference between BBA and BGA, it should be easy for you to identify it:

BBA - grows in bushels and is hard to remove from its spot, you have to rip it off. What helps is the removal of the leaf on which it grows, or - if the leaf is healthy (as this could be a slow grower like anubias) then spot treatment with Excel will do the trick. The latter also is good for irremovable (as in cleaning outside the tank and placing it back in) hardware, like sticks, rocks, and equipment.

BGA is growing in a film that can easily be wiped off. It is often caused by the presents of nutrients in the water column with a lack of Nitrates at the same time, or by stagnant areas in the tank (as in no water flow). It can be treated by correction of the issues mentioned above, an immediate remedy (but not fixing the problem in the long run) would the addition of half dosages of Maracyn Freshwater from Mardel for about 4 to 5 days.

Otherwise, glad to hear your plants are growing, crypts often tend to melt when replanted, but they may come back.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo, i believe it is BGA.

I don't think it is caused (in my case) from stagnant water - I have 2 filters in there and the areas that are affected have enough water disturbance.

I am about to go on vacation so I wont be able to treat it with the chemicals.
I will test for nitrates (to see how low they are) and post the results later.
Thanks!


~Morgan~

Well, I got back from my vacation and I came home to find a tank with a lot of algea in it!

There is a lot of bright green "fern" looking algea that is attached to the glass. i tried rubbing it off with my algea magnet glass cleaner thing but it is on there very well. could this be beard algea after all? It is growing in small tufts - to get one little "tuft" off, I had to scrape it with my finger nail... I can't post a picture of it because my camera won't focus on stuff that close (and yes, i've tried everything)

the tank other wise seems to be doing fine, a lot of growth and no dead leaves or anything; the diatoms have died down although they still rage on the glass.

I won't be posting a full tank pic. until i get this algae stuff off. can anyone help me?




~Morgan~

Morgan,

BBA, which can be green, will grow as you described, in small tufts that are hard to remove from a solid structure.

What helps to get rid of it is Flourish Excel, but not permanently as it will come back if conditions for it are right.

Do you usually clean your glass when doing tank maintenance?

From my experience and the words of others, it appears that BBA is caused by high water flow. Is it the worst for you in areas where the filter splashes the water onto the glass, or a narrower area between plants/scape and glass? That would make sense to me.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

PS: Remember, guessing someones true issues is harder than seeing a picture of it. No shame in that, actually there is guts in it.

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks ingo, The water that is hiting the glass is right in the front - it doesn't have anything blocking it so it must be the high flow.

What is the cost in your area of the smallest container of excel? So to help prevent it in the future, should I turn both my filters on low?

And I guess I will post a picture after all:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/6-8.jpg
the algea is the stuff at the very top. From this angle, it doesn't look like beard algea but from the top angle (which is the one that doesn't focus) it looks a lot like it.


~Morgan~

Morgan,

I forgot what your filters are, if you ever told me (us), sorry about that.

I assume both are HOBs, right? With HOBs you would like to have a turn-around of somewhere between 7 to 10 times the tank volume total. The worse your tank conditions are (in a sense of large fish load or lots of decaying matter) the higher you want that turn around.

Given that your tank has a low fish load, and all plants look healthy (although I of course think you need way more plants to help the tank settle), I think you could go on the low end of that turn around.

Excel is not cheap, so you may get away with just cleaning that area of the glass with an algae pad during all water changes. Excel for sure would help, but I always buy the 2 liter bottle from Big Als.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club