FishProfiles.com Message Forums

The tanks looking pretty good, certainly nothing to be ashamed of

Plants look healthy, although a few look like they've just been planted ?

Get see any major algae apart from some green spot on the crypts.

2ppm means your DIY Co2 is doing nothing. @ppm is what you'd expect from a non injected tank.

Even for DIY that's bad. Obviously something off in the mixture or it's not being diffused at all.

Having said that the blackwater extract will be throwing off your calculation using the KH/pH chart.

Try testing using the 24 hr method I describe above and see if you get the same result.

If I leave some tank water sitting for 24 hrs I get a reading of 7.8pH, the tank is measuring at 6.7pH. So I'm certain I'm above the 30ppm mark even without measuring KH or worrying if something in the tank is messing with the KH. A lot of time the KH/pH table can give a false reading. pH kits can be wrong at least with this method if the kit is wrong it'll be wrong by the same amount for both samples, so I still get an accurate Co2 reading. It's not the level of pH that's important it's the size of the drop from the Co2 injection.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ooh a compliment, thanks, I never thought I'd get one from you bensaf! I think it's starting to look pretty good, yes some of the plants have been planted recently and some may be moving still, either to another locale in the tank or out of the tank altogether. There are a couplke of spots where I want to add more plants that are similar yet not exactly the same, within the same family at least. I love the ludwigia arcuata with it's tiny leaves, and the reineckii, I hope it does well, and the same with the ludwigia repens (I think that's what it is, that or a hygro of some sort, the tall red one in the back). I put the names here when I put them in but I haven't got them in my book yet. I keep a gardening diary for my land plants outside and decided to do the same thing for my aquatic ones as well.

That batch is only a week old too. I think that says something about that system. The tank is only 5 gallons bigger than what it's made for and the CO2 mix is supposed to last up to 4 weeks, I thought I'd get at least 2 weeks in between new batches. Tomorrow I'll get the bigger canister (2L) up and running and then I'll try your way of testing to see how I've done. I have decided to keep a log (hand written) of the testing results to keep track of them. I especially want to track the CO2 progress. I really don't want to have to go pressurized just yet, but if I have to...

The Hagen system IS working fine in my 10 gallon tank though. So I think it is just too small for the 25 gallon. Here's hoping the 2L bottle works better!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Indeed, your tank doesn't look bad at all

This is one of these cases where the owner of a tank is its worst critic, I suffer from the same disease. The closer one gets the less one is satisfied with the results.

Anyway, I would suggest that for now you keep on trying to get your CO2 up and leave the plants where they are. Once this is done you can get started on giving the tank more structure, if needed.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Luv,

Lets talk about your mix a little.

How much sugar?
How much yeast?
How much water?
Water temp?
Order of adding in.


This is what I used to do:
~2 Cups of sugar mixed with screaming hot 3-4 cups of water. This disolves the suger really well and super fast.
~2 cups of cool water mixed with about a tps of yeast. Let that disolve. I stired my up to speed this up.
~ Once the yeast mix is good and milky looking I add that in to the 2L too.
~ Put on a non-drilled cap and shake the crap out of it.
~ Lossen the cap so it doesn't blow and let it sit for a couple of hours.
~ Add to the system.

When I was running two 2L's on the same system I wouldn't let it sit for very long. Just hook it up and go. I was figuring that the other bottle would help even out any problems with temp and sucking water from the tank.

Something else I just thought of. How warm is your house? My appartment stays pretty tosty. Maybe upper 70's to lower 80's. I guess thats what happens when you have 170G of water flowing around in a cracker jack box. Anyways if your house temp is too low the yeast will not work as well.

I think a double 2L system is going to be your best bet to get your CO2 up. I was running 3 2L's on my 40G. I never tested it but I am sure I could have hooked up an other one without any damage.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I have been using 1 cup of sugar in the Hagen bottle, the yeast that came with it seemed to be old so I have been using my baker's yeast, about a quarter of a teaspoon, it's a much smaller container, then I fill it up with warm water to the top mark. My house is now kept steady at 19C during the day and 17C at night. I find 20C too warm for me, unless I'm not feeling well, then I turn it up a bit. In the 2L bottle(s) I will try your method and see how it goes, you think I need 2 bottles rather than one? The Hagen bottle is about 500-650 ml.

LF- I will leave the plants alone for now, then I can tweak it later. I keep forgetting I have to re-plant again anyway when the new gravel goes in. I found Eco-Complete at Big Al's in Edmonton, I'm thinking a 1" layer of that under the natural river gravel will be good. 2-3" of river gravel and I should have lots of substrate. They have the florite too but it's all the wrong colour, it would have to be under the eco I would think. Maybe a 1" layer across the back, then it would be sloped and the nutrients would be where the plants need it, I don't plant all the way to the glass, so I wasn't sure about putting the eco to the glass either. I've got an article about setting up an amano tank and I'm going to try for the same type of substrate system he uses, I can't do the whole set-up he does 'cause the fish and plants have to go in on the same day! If I could set-up another tank from scratch I would do it right and follow it step by step.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Ugh! My connection went down. I wanted to ask you Wingsdlc how long you let it sit for? Not too long doesn't tell me much, in my house it takes about 2 hrs to see any bubbles in the bottle. I now have two bottles started, and another cap drilled, sealed and curing. I have also cranked the heat up a bit to get things going. It seemed to have improved the bubble rate for the bottle already on the tank.
Now to work out where the bottles will go when they are connected to the tank. There's no room or shelf in behind the tank, the table beside the tank is very low. I may need some more time to work this out.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Sorry about not giving you a time on how long I let the bottle sit. Most of they time it would only be a couple of hours at most. After letting it sit I would shake the junk out of it again just to make sure its good and mixed. When I was running 3 bottles I would be changing my mix every week in a different bottle so the bottles were only running 3 weeks each.

I think your house temp might be part of the problem. 62F at night and 66F in the day is kind of cool The yeast might not like it as much. My little studio apt stay well I am guess close to 80F most of the time. It helps that its pretty high humidity being I have 175G of water floating around from my 5 tanks.

Best of luck! Let us know how things go!

About tearing down your tank... best of luck with that too! If you go with Florite put small amounts of it in a large net and rinse it in there. Works great! Way better than a 5G bucket.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings! I will remember that about the florite, I may be able to do the changeover sooner than expected, but I want to get the CO2 down before making any more major changes in the tank. Though that gravel is the last thing driving me crazy, except I didn't find it as bad in the last set of pics. Anyone else find it not as noticeble or am I just blocking really well?
I have a mesh bag with the CO2 bottle in it hanging beside the tank. I'm letting it sit overnight again, no bubbles yet, could be bad yeast, the guy did say they were expired and he gave them to me for free. I have turned up the heat in the house a bit and have the second bottle sitting over a heat vent in a bathroom cabinet. I have 2 cats and a dog see and I don't want them knocking things over thus things must be placed with that foremost in mind.
I was trying to figure out how to keep the bottles with the shortest distance between them and the tank and was thinking about adding a shelf under the tank, on top of the tank stand, the shelf would stick out about 6 inches in back of the tank. The tank would still be square on the stand and I would then have a place to hide the CO2 bottles. Obviously I can't do this with the water in the tank, so it would have to wait for the breakdown and re-plant. Then while talking to my brother we came up with the hanging mesh bags. The bag is hanging off a picture hook beside and behind the tank, this way it is at the right height and not as visible. It may be I won't need the shelf after all.

Wings what yeast did you use? Baker's yeast or did you try brewer's yeast? I am having little luck with any yeast except the stuff that came with my second hagen unit.

Bensaf, I need to make this 100% clear as day before I go ahead with it. You've been saying I can add water from my tap with nothing but prime in it, no peat extracts to adjust KH, GH and pH, just prime and it will be fine and my CO2 will be fine and the tank will be fine and the fish will be fine? I am really not sure about this as I have spent so much time trying to soften the water and condition it so it will be best for the fish and plants that I am feeling like I am standing on a cliff without a parasail or a chute and am about to jump. We're talking fear here, I'm afraid to let go of the peat, I like the peat but you say I don't need the peat. The fish have adjusted to the peat, but new fish haven't been doing so well in that tank lately, which is why I'm thinking about making this change. Then the water at the store and the water here would be a better match. Same as the water from the tap and the water in the tank. Please assure me this will be fine. We're talking KH 300, pH 7.8, and I'm still not 100% clear on the pH/KH/CO2 thing but I'm trusting you. I'm adding 2 2L bottles of CO2 to the tank as soon as tomorrow, I need to know it will be ok to do so and let the pH and KH sort itself out in the tank.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

You've been saying I can add water from my tap with nothing but prime in it,

People been quoting me on things I don'r remember saying. Prime ? I've never used Prime or mentioned it to anyone

Basically the only lem with your tap water is the Kh. It'll take a lot of Co2 to make a dent in it. DIY may not cut it.

Continue to use the blackwater extract to reduce it if easy.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I was only using bakers yeast.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Sorry bensaf, Prime is the water conditioner I'm using now, I should have said dechlorinator instead of Prime, but basically my question was should I stop worrying about the KH or continue to adjust it using the blackwater extract? The extract does bring the KH to a more manageble level, cuts it in half actually, but it is still above 5 dKH. If I keep it at that level then I can be assured that when the CO2 starts making bubbles I will actually be getting CO2 in the water, and the KH will prevent a major drop in pH. This is what I want to be sure of. Yes the blackwater is easy to use. And I have it on hand and it's no more expensive than the fertilizers I am using.

Thank you very much for your patience with me, I am still trying to figure all this out, the tank is only a year old and it has gone through so many changes in such a short time, but I think I'm getting closer to understanding everything. I took your dosing schedule for the tanks and printed out a Maintenance schedule for them, that goes into my diary and is posted beside the small tank here above my desk. This way I'm reminded when to do things like add ferts and stuff.

Wings, I had to make a new batch of yeast as the brewers yeast was dead, no bubbles at all. So I'm back to baker's yeast and I followed your instructions. My poor tank is without CO2 as the old bottle is almost completely spent now and the new one won't be ready for at least a couple of hours. Yikes, it almost makes me want to go pressurized! But such expense and hassle for a 25 gallon tank, at least the tank is looking better than ever.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

The real deal is cool but I am starting to have algae issues with my tank. Not really sure on the cause yet. Didn't happen until I switched over though.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

As long as you are using the DIY co2, probably best to use the extract to drop the KH. 5 dgh is absolutely fine.

You will probably not get an accurate reading of Co2 using the blackwater so use the method I describe above to test.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The 2 2L bottles are up and running! I have 1 bubble/second I think, they're really coming through now. So to be sure on this if the tank is at 6.8 and the water that sits overnight is at 7.8 then I've got 30ppm right? Or is that wrong? As long as the fish aren't gasping at the surface before bed tonight I think I won't worry, there's never been this many CO2 bubbles in the tank. I have the filter on high at night and during the day I turn the filter down to mid-low. Thus maximizing the CO2 level. The ladder is right beside the heater which is placed at a really low angle horizontally, in the middle of the back of the tank as close to the gravel as I can get it. Thus I have good water flow past the ladder I hope. As the warmer water moves up it is drawn over towards the filter return and the CO2 bubbles that reach the surface can be seen to be drawn towards the flow and pushed back down into the tank. I hope it's a good set-up as I find it the best visually, all the hardware will soon be camoflaged by the plants.

I find it a nice tank to look at and spent hours today just tank watching from my Ikea bentwood chair, which doesn't face the TV but has it's back to the TV and faces the tank, who needs TV anyway?

Thanks to everyone for getting me this far. Of course this isn't the end of this log, I still have the substrate change and replant to do, which I am eager for and yet reluctant as I am finally happy with the tank. Maybe when things start to grow and get crowded I won't feel the same way. Then there's always new fish. Soon I think the danios will have had their day, I am down to 3 and two look like they are fading, the last I'm sure is one of the original 6 that I cycled the tank with and will be sad to se him go. I think though in their place will be brilliant rasboras, they are quietly flashy and are compatible with the barbs. On the other hand they are not considered compatible with the krib. I can't find any fish other than danios that are top-dwellers and compatible with both the barbs and the krib, but I am still looking. I have time after all. I won't be adding any fish until after the change I think, that will give the tank time to adjust and settle back down. And the current fish won't be stressing over new tank mates while fighting off the worms or whatever is in there.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

So to be sure on this if the tank is at 6.8 and the water that sits overnight is at 7.8 then I've got 30ppm right?

Correct. If the drop in pH is less then 1 you have less then 30ppm if it's more then a 1 point drop you have more then 30ppm. I've got a chart somewhere I'll dig out for you.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Nothing new really going on in the 25, except that after 2 days of good bubble rate for CO2, the rate has really dropped, 2 bottles isn't enough! If I did 3 and changed one every week would that be excessive? Pressurized is starting to look really good, except for the expense involved, my Hubby may decide not to come home ever! The temp in the house may have something to do with it, but I find anything over 20C and I am not comfortable, nor is my wallet when the gas bill comes. I should get great CO2 in the summer when it is too hot for me in the house.

The 10 is completely overrun with BBA, staghorn and thread I think, the algae is pearling on the plants! Could it be that there is not enough light/plants to handle the CO2 and the nutrients? If so, then I guess a re-plant is in order, It is currently 15 watts over 10 gallons. I can get the plant grow bulb, it has a better spectrum of light. I can't re-do the light like I did for the 25, that's way over the top. I suppose I could go for my own little crypt, anubias and java fern mound, stick with the low-light plants and take out the CO2 or reduce the fert schedule to accomodate the slower-growing plants? Any advice on this would be appreciated. I could start a new log but I don't want to add to the growing number of folks here with MLS (multiple LOG syndrome). Thus I guess the occasional question and comment about the 10 will go in here as well.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Nothing new really going on in the 25, except that after 2 days of good bubble rate for CO2, the rate has really dropped, 2 bottles isn't enough! If I did 3 and changed one every week would that be excessive? Pressurized is starting to look really good, except for the expense involved, my Hubby may decide not to come home ever! The temp in the house may have something to do with it, but I find anything over 20C and I am not comfortable, nor is my wallet when the gas bill comes. I should get great CO2 in the summer when it is too hot for me in the house.

Tell me again, why your not simply using excel in this tank.

The 10 is completely overrun with BBA, staghorn and thread I think, the algae is pearling on the plants! Could it be that there is not enough light/plants to handle the CO2 and the nutrients? If so, then I guess a re-plant is in order, It is currently 15 watts over 10 gallons.

15w over 10, that's like no light and your making it way to complicated with the co2. You should be using lowlight plants and dosing a smigden here and a smigden there. If you want to add a few drops of excel go right ahead.


My Scapes

I was using Excel in the 25 and the 10, Excel wasn't enough for the 25 when I changed the light, thus DIY CO2, I found part of the problem was a leak, so in luvmykrib fashion after posting for help I found the problem and took steps to fix it. I took off the old sealant around the tube into the bottle, added new sealant to the top of the tube wher it joins the check valve, then pulled the tube all the way down until the check valve tube was visible inside the cap, it swells there enough to cause a natural seal and the sealant will keep it in place. Then I added some old towels from my rag bucket to the bottom of the mesh bag to insulate the bottles from the bottom. Hopefully this will help with the major problem of my DIY CO2 system, a new batch of CO2 will be coming up soon, I will stick with 2 bottles for now, changing them in rotation every 1-2 weeks as needed. That tank does have the lights and plants to need CO2 and will be getting more plants as soon as I can get them.

Tetratech, the 10 will be going low tech, it does have a pitiful amount of light except for the hour each day when my sky-light lets the sun in and some of that strikes the tank, I have a blind in the kitchen window to block as much as I could, then noticed there was the sky-light to contend with as well! The tank will be moving as soon as I can get someplace to set it on out of the line of fire. Co2 may still be of some benefit to that tank once I get the light situation figured out. Dosing macros will be reduced to a smidgeon here and a smidgeon there, mostly after water changes. I will be adding a mound, which means more anubias, fern and crypts, the lone val in that tank has produced a baby, it didn't like the bigger tank at all, but it likes the 10 just fine. I will be looking for ideas for my new mound idea, I've been toying with it for awhile, I just need more larger-sized rocks and a few more small pieces of intersting driftwood, then I can add in more plants and away we go. I'll either wind up with a mound or a reef, I'm not sure yet.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

For the 10 I'd forget about the DIY co2.

I've never tried DIY and never will, just not worth the hassle with bottles and the problems of inconsistent Co2. Unstable Co2 will cause tons more algae problems then anything else.

Injected gas is a bit pricey for a 10gal.

Definately low tech is in the long term way more bang for your buck, just need some patience.

I've got 18watts over a 5 gal and find it hard to grow stuff.

Definately just stick to mosses, Anubias, crypts - just wood and rock to fill in space. A very nice pain free tank. Use excel and little bit of micro fert. Those plants won't make much demand on macros fish should be able to keep up.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The problem with taking the CO2 off the 10 is that I have already bought 2 of the Hagen Systems and have replaced the canister on the 25 with 2 larger canisters. They are non-refundable, I am considering upping the light, maybe going topless?

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

maybe going topless?

Getting a little wild around here at night.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric