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![]() | Affects of Plants on kH (Carbonate Hardness) |
bensaf![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Fish Master Posts: 1978 Kudos: 1315 Registered: 08-Apr-2004 ![]() ![]() | I run a pressurized injection system. Yes the Co2 does rise at night, but nothing major. I'll leave the Co2 running 24/7. Never seen any effect or discomfort with the fish from this. With the Hagen unit which is basically a DIY set up you'll need to retain as much C02 as you can. I'd leave it on. If you are really worried you can run an airstone at night to drive off the additional Co2. Again, don't drive yourself nuts with too many details ![]() It's unlikely you will experience major shift in pH. The fish probably won't notice a thing. No point of having a big list of unneccessary jobs to do , it's fun - enjoy it ![]() Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability. |
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Cory_Di![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Posts: 7953 Kudos: 2917 Votes: 25 Registered: 19-Dec-2002 ![]() ![]() | I have a 40w fixture I can use, once the co2 is up and running. Do you really think with my Penguin 170 splashing around, that Hagen kit will drop the pH that much? How much could I expect it to go down during the night? I'm concerned about that as Bob has brought it up. My tank is slightly overstocked. That is why I have it set to the 5 gallon setting versus the 20 gallon setting to start. Not sure of a practical way to not run the device at night. It doesn't have a shut off valve. [hr width='40%'] pH before lights went out: 7.5 I hope to post an am reading before lights go on. Even if the bubble's start flowing into the ladder overnight, it will be very slow to start from what I have read. Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Feb-2005 22:03 |
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bensaf![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Fish Master Posts: 1978 Kudos: 1315 Registered: 08-Apr-2004 ![]() ![]() | Cory Di, Firstly congrats on doing so much homework before getting into this, it is to be commended. Having said that don't let all the new information you are learning drive you nuts ! Personally I wouldn't bother with the baking soda. It will have to be added constantly to keep the Kh stable and is another piece of maintenance that imo isn't really neccessary in your set up. If your current pH is 7.5 it could actually do with a bit of lowering. I would add the co2 slowly to let it gradually decrease the Ph so as to avoid stressing the fish. With the Hagen unit your Ph probably wont drop below 7 which is a perfect neutral level. With only 1 wpg on the 20 I wouldn't expect the co2 to have much impact on plant growth. Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability. |
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Cory_Di![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Posts: 7953 Kudos: 2917 Votes: 25 Registered: 19-Dec-2002 ![]() ![]() | Thanks for the caution. How about I post some values here in the coming days/weeks as I work through it and you guys can tell me how its doing. Not sure how to unplug it for the night? Just pull the end out of the cannister and let the cannister pipe that co2 out in the air? I don't think plugging it would be wise. I have it set on the 5 gallon level, not the 20 gallon amount. They have notches at different places on the ladder. I have it set half way up, so the bubbles will have less contact with the water than if they traveled the full length of the ladder. This is the only reason I bought it is because I could start out slow. I also plan on leaving my Penguin 170 running at full tilt. Later, I may decide to slow the flow to reduce surface agitation, but figured I would wait until I get morning and evening numbers (before lights and just before lights out). I happen to be on sick leave yet with my asthma, so I can watch it throughout the day. In particular, I'm going to make sure I'm up one morning to catch a reading right before any lights go on. What I have in the tank right now I don't think will add to the co2 by night and I know the plants are not taking it up: Anubias Nana (2) Java Fern (1) Tiger Val (1) and sickly at that - trying to save. Hornwort (only 2 small stems) Banana Plant (3) - 1 robust; 2 rather small Najas Guadalupensis (1 stem) |
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Bob Wesolowski![]() ![]() Mega Fish Posts: 1379 Kudos: 1462 Registered: 14-Oct-2004 ![]() ![]() | Cory, As you are doing your tests, be aware that your aquariums go through a diurnal fluctuation of respiration and fluctuation throughout the day that affects the level of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the water. When you have a olanted tank, the fluctuations are affected by the relatively high concentration of plants in a small body of water. The strong cautoion for a DYI system like the Hagen is the inability to control the flow of CO2 as pH declines. I would only use CO2 with a solenoid that controls the flow of CO2 ba __________ "To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research." researched from Steven Wright |
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Cory_Di![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Posts: 7953 Kudos: 2917 Votes: 25 Registered: 19-Dec-2002 ![]() ![]() | Thanks _ I'll definiteyl play around with the numbers on that site. I think I will add the baking soda. I like targets, so if I have a target I can go after it. |
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Untitled No. 4![]() ![]() Big Fish Posts: 488 Kudos: 452 Votes: 33 Registered: 07-Nov-2004 ![]() ![]() | I think you would be better with raising your buffering capacity a bit, even if only to be on the safe side. Anything but unpressurised CO2 systems are not very accurate and their CO2 output might change according to temperature, how exhausted is the yeast, etc. It's hard to tell exactly how much baking soda to add. I would start with half teaspoon per 10 gallons and test to see how much the KH has raised and you'll have a clue. Dissolve the baking soda in a cup with aquarium water and then add it to the aquarium. Half teaspoon will probably raise your KH by something like 1 DKH, and it's not too much of a big change, so don't worry about it (I think you'll worry anyway, that's only natural). You should aim to reach a level of 4.5 or 5 DKH. Raising the KH will raise your pH, but not by much. Your test kit will probably not even register the change. If you look at a KH/pH/CO2 chart (or play with that calculator on Bensaf's link) you can roughly predict how much your pH will raise. At the moment, with pH of 7.5 and KH of 3.64 your CO2 level is 3.19ppm. As you're not going to add CO2 yet, your CO2 levels will remain the same. So, if you raise your KH to 4.5, and your CO2 remains the same, then your pH will rise to roughly 7.57. If you raise your KH to 5 DKH, your pH will rise to 7.62. Your fish won't be bothered about such a small change. From Seachem's website: "Flourish Excel is not carbon dioxide and there is no impact on pH using Flourish Excel" (Seachem's Flourish Excell FAQ). Although they don't say it has no impact on the KH, if it would have any impact on the KH it would have an impact on pH as well. |
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Cory_Di![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Posts: 7953 Kudos: 2917 Votes: 25 Registered: 19-Dec-2002 ![]() ![]() | OK - I just checked and the old kit was a Hagen kit, not Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, which is what I have for the new kit. The new kit was the frozen one, so I may need to replace it. Also, the Hagen kit is over a year old. I just remember when I took it months ago (and i use to take many readings), it always took between 6 and 7 drops, so I figured 6.5 drops. Multiply that by 100 and we have 65 mg/L or 65 x 0.056 = 3.64 dkH. Readings with the same kit today: kH: 60 mg/L or 3.36 dkH. gH: 100 mg/L or 5.6 dkH pH: 7.5 Now, these readings were taken in mid day. Since I have so little hornwort or other plants that would really oxygenate by day or put co2 in at night, I'm assuming my pH is not really changing from morning to night. A lamp goes on near the tank before I wake (by an hour or two), so I'll have to try to time it just right. I'll take another pH reading before I turn off all the lights tonite. With readings like this, should I add sodium bicarb? If I do, will it raise my pH or just raise the kH value (not even considering the co2 device). If we didn't have a co2 device in there, what would adding the baking soda do to my readings? Also, if I should add a little to buffer it, how much? I have to do tap readings as I suspect my tap water has changed from what was going on before. My gH and kH matched my tap readings previously, and now the kH seems to have dropped slightly. What effect, if any would my daily addition of Excel do to these readings? Sorry for all the questions - I've got much to learn in this area ![]() ![]() Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Feb-2005 15:42 |
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Cory_Di![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Posts: 7953 Kudos: 2917 Votes: 25 Registered: 19-Dec-2002 ![]() ![]() | Well, I've got it set up, but I'm being overly cautious, placing it on the 5 gallon setting. Once it runs for 72 hours or so and I can check see what the pH is doing, I'll drop it to the 10 gallon setting and let it run a week before taking it to 20 gallon. I have a fish in a hospital tank that will need to go back, provided he survives his affliction. I don't need too much of a varied pH within these next few days anyway, but wanted to get it bubbling real good. I now understand what the stabilizer likely is - sodium bicarb. I recall reading in the Aquatic Gardner Assoc Magazine that some prefer putting a little baking soda in the container of DIY kits to keep the pH within the cannister from crashing. All it is is yeast and that. Makes sense to me. That I can do on my own by measure the two out of the packets. Could the stabilizer stuff be anything else? |
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Untitled No. 4![]() ![]() Big Fish Posts: 488 Kudos: 452 Votes: 33 Registered: 07-Nov-2004 ![]() ![]() | If your pH is 7.5, it is more likely that your KH is 65ppm/3.64 DKH. This is not 100% sure, but if your tank is well aerated and you add no CO2, then your levels of CO2 should be around the equilibrium, i.e. around 4.5ppm. If you play with the calculator on the link that Bensaf gave, you will see that if your KH was 9 DKH then your CO2 would be 8.5ppm, which is not impossible, but not very likely. Also, there is a slight disagreement between Bensaf and myself regarding the ability of CO2 addition to lower KH. You can read at the krib (under Carbonate Hardness) a better explanation than mine what is KH. You can also read there that the buffering capacity reacts with carbonic acid (H2CO3) and how with time the carbonate ions are used. Water (H20) + Carbon Dioxide (CO2) = carbonic acid (H2CO3). So, adding CO2 creates carbonic acid which lowers the pH in the water. The buffering capacity doesn't stop that but only prevent big changes. So, the bottom line, this is why hagen say that the KH will go down. It will. I will repeat myself: from my experience the process is really slow. I have never actually seen it happening with weekly water changes, so I don't think you have much to worry about. When starting to add CO2, keep an eye on your pH and KH. The pH will change, that's for sure, but I don't expect your KH to change that much. Okay, I hope I explained it clearly. That was exhausting to write, so I hope it was worth it. |
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Cory_Di![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Posts: 7953 Kudos: 2917 Votes: 25 Registered: 19-Dec-2002 ![]() ![]() | Thanks to both of you. untitled, I will tell you that I have reason to doube the credibility of the new test kit I just got because not only was it frozen solid when I got it, but the kH container expanded so much, fluid was all over the box as it did not fully freeze, but did expand. Because bottles need to be shaken well before use, it may have lost more of a particular chemical than the others. I have heard back from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, who makes the kit, that it should be fine, despite freezing. I have found this to be true of the other tests by comparing against existing kits. I still have my old gH/kH test kits and will check those again to see if I have the same reading on that kit. I have only one tiger val that I'm desparately trying to save as it was hard to get. Doses of Excel just aren't cutting it. It is rooted in flourite and I have Flourish Plant Tabs, but it is just very weak. bensaf My pH is about 7.5 in that tank. The hagen unit does have a provision that allows you to put out more or less - it's where you place the end of the tube relative to the bubble ladder. They have it marked. I may start out with the halfway mark, for 10 gallons for a week and check pH levels daily. I may add the sodium bicarb too just to make sure it is stable. I currently have a 20w Flora-Glo bulb on the 20 long, which is shallow at 12 inches. More light can penetrate down. However, on another, larger tank, I have a double strip light capable of 40w, which I would move back to the 20 long. I only got algae when I had it on the tank without co2. The 36 gallon bowfront with two goldies would do fine with only 20 w. There are no plants. |
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bensaf![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Fish Master Posts: 1978 Kudos: 1315 Registered: 08-Apr-2004 ![]() ![]() | Di, I think I understand where you are confused and will try to explain without confusing you more.I think you mis-understood the literature. Kh being carbonate hardness acts as a buffer between the co2 and pH. Adding Co2 will not alter your kH but depending on your pH level before you added Co2 you may want to alter the Kh. I think this is what the literature was trying to explain to you. As you know adding Co2 will reduce your pH. If your pH is already low the Co2 could reduce it to a level that is too low.The way to avoid this is too increase your kH to buffer the Co2 and keep the Ph at a safe level. Idealy what you need to do is check your pH before Co2 , decide what level of Ph you wish to maintain and still have a co2 level of 15-30 ppm.Then using a co2 calculater see what level of kH will give the desired effect. You can increase kH by adding baking soda. You can find a table for calculating your levels at the link below and a much better explanation then mine. http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm Of course you could just leave everything be. Unless your current pH level is already very low the co2 shouldn't reduce it to problem levels. Unless you are keeping African cichlids most trops prefer the water on the acidic side.I always feel it's best to keep messing with the water chemistry to a minimum and shouldn't be done unless absolutely neccessary. BTW, how much light do you have? Co2 greatly aids photosynthesis without sufficient light the co2 is pretty meaningless. Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability. |
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Untitled No. 4![]() ![]() Big Fish Posts: 488 Kudos: 452 Votes: 33 Registered: 07-Nov-2004 ![]() ![]() | 65ppm KH equals 3.64 DKH. 9 DKH equals 161ppm KH. KH(ppm)/17.857 = DKH. KH measures bicarbonates and carbonates and not calcium (which is what GH measures, alongside magnesium). It is not very likely that your KH levels have changed so much, so fast without you doing something about it (adding CO2 doesn't count). Something must be wrong with one or both of your test kits. Can you find someone with a KH test to take a third test and find out your real value? If your KH is really 3.64 DKH, then it means you need to raise it a little. A third of a spoon of baking soda per 10 gallons would probably take your KH to 4.5 DKH, which is good for you if you start adding CO2. I'm not a chemist, so I can't tell you exactly how CO2 alters KH. My understanding of it is that it's a combination of plants using more carbonates on one hand and the addition of CO2 exhausting KH levels and bringing them down. What I can tell you from my experience is that it's a very slow process. This should only really worry you if you don't perform water changes on a regular basis, which I kinda guess you personally do. Once a week is enough, no need for more frequent changes. If your KH is really 3.64 DKH then you will have to adjust your top up water up to 4.5 DKH, which you will have to experiment or calculate how much baking soda it means, depends on how much water you change. Hagen CO2 systems work in the same way that DIY systems do, which means they are not very accurate as you cannot really adjust how much CO2 goes into your tank. This means you should aim for at least 4.5 DKH, as it there are less chances of pH swings when the yeast exhausts. If you look for some posts of people who actually use that Hagen system, you'll see that many of them decided it was best to run it on DIY yeast solution rather than using Hagen's refills, but I personally don't have any experience with that. As for your plants, they're all going to be fine with the CO2, but to be honest, CO2 addition is a bit wasted on what you've got. Okay, the vals will grow faster, and maybe the hornwort too (never had it without CO2, so I can't compare). The anubias will still be a slow grower, it might grow slightly faster than it has before, but not much faster. The java fern won't grow faster either, but will produce small baby plants on the leaves (some, me included, think it's not very sightly. I got rid of mine). It will also produce a lot of small oxygen bubbles, but that's great. I'm don't know about the banana plant. If you lighting allows you, think of some more difficult and beautiful plants. My personal favourite at the moment is the Limnophilla aromatica, which becomes really beautiful with the addition of CO2. I would advise you to avoid cabomba altogether. Mine kept dying regardless of my lights levels and CO2 levels. They are very unsightly when they die and they foul the water, both visually (lots of annoying dying leaves floating around) and chemically (higher nitrate levels and probably phosphates too). I hope this answers your questions and doesn't confuse you even more. Last edited by untitled at 06-Feb-2005 06:38 |
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