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Under General Freshwater I have a thread going title like this one discussing gravel and lighting if anyone would like to look in on that. I had asked if it is better to have fewer fish in the tank after you change the gravel and it is doing a mini-cycle or not??? From what I learned about changing gravel, this is what you do: put fish in bucket with heater and filter along with water from tank, change gravel and clean tank, add old water and if you want to add some gravel to help cylce, put the fish back in with plants etc. Is this correct???

Also is it true if you have all real plants in a tank and then add the fish that you dont have to cycle the tank???

How would I go about doing real plants in my tank with fish in it already??? Because I know that most people start out with plants and then add the fish they wish to stock to it once it is planted.

I have a 20 gallon tank that has been running for 3 years with a BIO-Wheel filter and Tronic heater. I also have the fluorescent lights it came with. For my tank I would like to order this light fixture: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=29549;category_id=1875;pcid1=1843;pcid2=. This would give me 3.25 watts/gallons.

Does anybody have any comments for the following plants and would they work for my tank??? I got them out of a book about planting an aquarium. The book said they were all good beginners plants. My tank is also 16-17 inches tall so I would prefer plants that are 16 inches tall or less. Here is the list (the number is the height in inches):
Anubias:
-angustifolia 8
-barteri var. barteri 12
-barteri Coffeefolia 6-10
-barteri var. caladiifolia 1705 12
-barteri var. nana 4.7

Aponogeton:
-boivinianus 16
-crispus 14
-ulvaceus 14-16

Bacopa:
-caroliniana 8-16

Cabomba:
-aquatica 16
-caroliniana 20

Cryptocoryne:
-balansae 14
-beckettii 6
-parva 2
-pontederiifolia 8-10
-undulata 12
-walkeri var. lutea 4.7
-wendtii Brown 14
-wendtii Mi Oya 14
-wendtii Tropica 14
-willisii 2-3.2

Didiplis:
-diandra 10-14

Egeria:
-densa 20+

Eleocharis:
-acicularis 6-8,10

Elodea:
-canadensis 20+

Glossostigma:
-elatinoides 0.4-0.8

Hemianthus:
-callitrichoides 1.2-6
-micranthemoides 6-8

Heteranthera:
-zosterifolia 16-20

Hygrophila:
-corymbosa 20
-corymbosa Siamensis 53B 12

Lilaeopsis:
-mauritiana 2-4

Limnophila:
-aquatica 20
-sessiliflora 12-20

Lobelia:
-cardinalis 12

Ludwigia:
-repens 20

Micranthemum:
-umbrosum 12

Rotala:
-rotundifolia 20

Sagittaria:
-platyphylla 6-8
-subulata 12

Vallisneria:
-americana 8
-asiatica var. biwaensis 14
-tortifolia 10

Echinodorus:
-angustifolius 12
-barthii 8-10
-cordifolius 16
-cordifolius Tropica Marble Queen 8
-osiris 16-20
-palaefolius var. latifolius 16
-parviflorus 10
-quadricostatus var. xinguensis 3.2-6
-schlueteri 10-12
-tenellus 3.2
-uruguayensis 12
-Gabrielii
-Oriental 8-12
-Ozelot Green 16
-Red Flame 16
-Red Special 16
-Rose
-Rubin
-Tricolor

You can opy and paste list to make comments about each plant if you would like to make it easier. That is all I can think of as of now.

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Kayla,

I have to say that your list is a little overwhelming. You pretty much list all plants that are common in the trade and giving you info on all of them would mean that someone has to write a book about them here. For sure this is way too much work for me , so I will make a few general statements instead.

- Before any critic of over 3wpg of light on this tank is writing something, I have this unit on a 29G which is roughly the same height, no CO2 injection required, and healthy growth with little to no algae.
- You are right when saying that the plants should fit in height, as plants that grow taller would eventually shade all other plants and cause them to develop problems. Also, plants should not be too wide as you would not have enough space for them either and the tank would look tiny.
- You want to select plants in the beginning that grow fast. This will help you getting the tank settled quicker, and also helps with the fish that you would like to add from the get-go. Some of these could be Wisteria and Water Sprite, but stem plants are good as well, like Ludwigia Repens.
- Once the tank is settled you can slowly go ahead and slowly replace fast growers with plants that you would like to maintain in the tank in the long run.
- Large water changes during the first few weeks after setup will help avoiding any mini-cycle, or at least minimize it. What would the initial fish load be?

Again, with regards to all these plants that you list, go ahead and read more about them. Find the ones that you really like and let's discuss them. This process is good for you as you will learn more about plants then if we would go ahead and simpl throw some info your way.

Hope this helps a little,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is the new list of plants:
Anubias:
-angustifolia Afzelii 8
-barteri var. nana 4.7

Aponogeton:
-crispus 14
-ulvaceus 14-16

Bacopa:
-caroliniana 8-16

Cabomba:
-caroliniana 20

Cryptocoryne:
-beckettii 6
-parva 2
-undulata 12
-walkeri var. lutea 4.7
-willisii 2-3.2

Egeria:
-densa 20+

Glossostigma:
-elatinoides 0.4-0.8

Heteranthera:
-zosterifolia 16-20

Hygrophila:
-corymbosa Siamensis 53B 12

Lilaeopsis:
-mauritiana 2-4

Limnophila:
-sessiliflora 12-20

Ludwigia:
-repens 20

Sagittaria:
-platyphylla 6-8

Vallisneria:
-americana 8
-asiatica var. biwaensis 14
-tortifolia 10

Echinodorus:
-barthii 8-10
-quadricostatus var. xinguensis 3.2-6
-tenellus 3.2

Is there anything that I need to know about these plants that you cant find in the books, but from personal experience??? Are all of these on AquariumPlants.com too??? Dont worry about the basics because I have a book that gives me all of that. Is this better LITTLE_FISH???


kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Also is it true if you have all real plants in a tank and then add the fish that you dont have to cycle the tank???

You will probably see a cycle if you cram fish in there. If you stock real slowly, and cram plants in there you may never see a cycle because the plants will be able to use most of the fish waste. Ammonia isn't a plants preferred source of nitrogen though, so it's always good to have some nitrate in the tank.

How would I go about doing real plants in my tank with fish in it already???

The best way to do it is to put as many plants in there as possible from the start. Adding a plant or two at a time makes things more difficult. The more plant mass you have, the easier things will be.

As for the plant list...I'm still not going to touch it. It basically went from a novel to a novella. www.tropica.com gives all the information you need to know. You should be able to grow just about any plant with the lights. If you can't it's probbably a nutrient deficiency, not the light. I'd personally want to get some CO2 with that amount of light though.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I am still working on making my plant list shorter so when I am finished I will post it and you can add comments about the plant choices etc.

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Do you really think I need CO2 or could I get by without it???

PS - What is wrong with this site??? LITTLE_FISH had like 3 posts on here and now they arent on.

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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LITTLE_FISH had like 3 posts on here and now they arent on

You don't say .

Not only did these posts dissapear, but even the questions that they answered dissapeared as well. And it took me at least 30min to research two of the answers on the web.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi All,
By now you should have read elsewhere that the system
crashed and the backup was used to restore it. The back
up set us back a day or two and anything posted between
the last backup and the problem was lost.

Here is the link to Adam's comment:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/private.aspx?id=28646&page=1&0#

I'm sorry you lost all that research LF.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I remember reading them and it said LF was talking about whether or not I needed a CO2 system or not.

Also, LF, your reply to my questions got deleted and I still needed that.

Here is my questions (I had typed them up in Microsoft Word then pasted):
Then what is the difference between Anubias afzelii and Anubias barteri var angustifolia?

What is a plant that is common to the Vallisneria tortifolia? They dont have it on AquariumPlants.com and I was wondering if it goes by another name sometimes.

Is Vallisneria asiatica var. biwaensis very similar to Vallisneria asiatica?

AquariumPlants.com also has Vallisneria americana var biwaensis, is that supposed to be the Vallisneria asiatica var biwaensis?

AquariumPlants.com doesnt have Limnophila sessiliflora do they unless it is under a different name?

Hygrophilia corymbosa var Siamensis Narrow Leaf is the same as Hygrophila corymbosa Siamensis 53B right?

Is Cryptocoryne lutea the same as Cryptocoryne walkeri var lutea?

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Ok Kayla, let me try that again

Then what is the difference between Anubias afzelii and Anubias barteri var angustifolia? - As in barteri var. angustifolia 'afzelii', right? The difference is that the Anubias afzelii is a plant that grows way too big for most standard tanks. The barteri version looks similar, but is much smaller.

What is a plant that is common to the Vallisneria tortifolia? They dont have it on AquariumPlants.com and I was wondering if it goes by another name sometimes. - I don't know

Is Vallisneria asiatica var. biwaensis very similar to Vallisneria asiatica? - Should be, if they are not even the same plant (see also next question). They may vary in leaf shape but should have similar requirements.

AquariumPlants.com also has Vallisneria americana var biwaensis, is that supposed to be the Vallisneria asiatica var biwaensis? - I remember that I found you some links, one of which stated that they are the same and that the name has changed from asiatica to americana. But don't ask me to find these links again

AquariumPlants.com doesnt have Limnophila sessiliflora do they unless it is under a different name? - It is known also as Dwarf Ambulia, but I don't think they have this one either

Hygrophilia corymbosa var Siamensis Narrow Leaf is the same as Hygrophila corymbosa Siamensis 53B right? - I don't know

Is Cryptocoryne lutea the same as Cryptocoryne walkeri var lutea? - Yes, I believe it is

So, hope I got it all,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

My list is now down to this:
Background
Ludwigia repens
Cabomba caroliniana
Bacopa caroliniana

Midground
Vallisneria americana
Sagittaria platyphylla
Cryptocoryne beckettii
Echinodorus quadricostatus

Foreground
E. quadricostatus
Echinodorus tenellus
Cryptocoryne willisii

Any comments or suggestions on different plants to substitute??? I know I need to make the list smaller too. Does anyone think that these plants kinda look a bit similar??? I just realized that in a way they do. Any comments on what I have so far or any ideas on changes would be greatly appreciated.


kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Background
Ludwigia repens - nice
Cabomba caroliniana - Nice, but maybe you could get Ambulia (Limnophila sessiliflora) locally, I find it nicer
Bacopa caroliniana - Eh, I have that one, is ok, I think Rotala rotundifolia is nicer, but on the other hand it may look too much like Ludwigia repens

Midground
Vallisneria americana - is pretty tall when fully grown, like what 16"
Sagittaria platyphylla - ok, don't have it, but sounds good
Cryptocoryne beckettii - maybe one or two red Crypt Wendtii may be nicer
Echinodorus quadricostatus - Sounds nice, don't have it though

Foreground
E. quadricostatus - as before, but I think it would be better in the midground (rather tall)
Echinodorus tenellus - nice
Cryptocoryne willisii - sounds very interesting, but I read mixed reviews about their melting (crypts often melt when moved, but will regrow leaves). A group on one side in the front may be nice.

Other things to consider:
- Your tank size is not so big (in particular deep) that you truely would be able to establish a solid midground, keep that in mind when ordering plants for that level.
- You should start off with loads of cheap fast growers, the crypts for example are not in that group, add Wisteria or some Hygro in the mix to start and later replace them with more of your favorite plants.
- Don't forget about the harscape, aka rocka and/or wood. You should have that at hand even before you order plants.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF I would just like to say that I found a good site with info on how to switch gravel from another thread. This is it: http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/qa/l/blqa2008.htm

I might redo my plant list and add more fast growers to it that I would like to keep in my tank.

When you say that Cryptocorynes melt, does that mean they just start to fade, but will come back to life once they are settled???

Dont worry about the wood and rocks because I was going to add it. I am going to order some bogwood from online. Where did you get your wood that is in your 125 gallon???

I see what you are saying about the midground, but I wanted to include some medium sized plants so I dont have some short ones and then tall ones that go up to the top. Want to maintain the three level kinda thing.

I also have another post in General Freshwater titled 2.5 Gallon Tank that you should take a look at too. Thanks.

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Kayla,

Yup - that is a nice article. It pretty much sums it up. I would suggest to have a seconds holding container ready and to add only water and fish to the first one. The seconds one should have also tank water and some of the old gravel (and decoration and what not that would be added back into the tank). This old gravel can then be placed in a stocking or such and added to the new set-up to get a head-start for the beneficial bacteria.

Yes, crypts tend to lose some, if not all leaves, when moved, even within the same tank. Melting refers to leaves and stems fading away, almost literally disintegrating into the water. But the plant is not dead and most likely it will regrow new leaves. I found this behavior to fit mostly my Wendtii, my lutea and lucens had almost no leaf losses, even when moved multiple times.

Ordering wood online is always worrysome as you cannot really see what you are getting. I got mine of Ebay based on a tip from NowherMan6 (and I payed a fortune for it). I would have much rather purchased a piece locally, but such items in that size and shape are not available here.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

What is another good site like AquariumPlants.com to order plants off of that is reliable and has good plants that are in good health when they come???

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Kayla,

Personally I purchased a larger order also from This Dealer. There I bought all the plants which were used to set up my 125G. You can go to my log and within the first few pages you should see the tank during setup and that will also give you an idea about plant size.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

In the book I have it shows plant symptoms that they get if they are not getting a certain fertilizer/nutrient. So when the plant shows this sign do I put the certain type of fertilizer in or do I put them in regularly like you mentioned in your 125G log???

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Kayla,

Without a doubt regularly. Would you wait with feeding your fishies until they show signs of starvation?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No, if you put it that way then it makes sense.

Speaking of feeding fish, is it best to feed everyday or every other day???

kj fishy-finn <*)))><
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Kayla,

What and when to feed fish heavily depends on the fish themselves. Let's take some larger meat eating fish for example. They should be fed maybe even only once a week (most of them twice a week or so). Plant eaters, like the lovely small Otos, should get their daily dose of algae (from wavers, if no algae is present in a tank). Baby fish should be fed multiple times per day. And so forth.

In general, I would say an aquarium with small fish (like platies, tetras, guppies, and the like) should have daily feedings, in small quantities, with maybe one day of no feeding per week.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club