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Which system do you suggest? Or should i go with the DIY stuff? My LFS is selling me a pressurized one that comes with a 5lb canister/bottle, and some valve on it with the bubble counter for about $130. Is that good price?

Hi,
Yes, it is a good price, but the system is incomplete
as you mention it. You will also need a diffuser, or
a reactor. A diffuser is a slintered glass "airstone"
designed to break the CO2 into tiny, tiny, bubbles
(much smaller than an airstone). You need to use
the slintered glass diffuser. Regular airstones
literally fall apart under CO2 use, and the bubbles
of even the finest airstones are too large.
They are simply not designed for this purpose. Their
purpose is to put O2 into the tank and stir it up
with rising current. A diffuser's purpose is completely
different.

The longer CO2 is exposed to the tank water, the more
CO2 will saturate (be absorbed) the water.

With the Diffuser, the bubbles are so tiny that they
are subject to the whims of the tank currents and
take longer to reach the surface, break, and be lost
to the atmosphere.

The reactor is a cylinder that has many passages.
Tank water and CO2 are injected at one end, and
CO2 saturated water comes out the other.

A system consists of a CO2 tank (pressurized bottle),
a regulator, bubble counter, and either a diffuser,
or a reactor. A needed, but not absolutely necessary
addition, is a pH monitor (probe and meter).

Adding presurized CO2 to a tank can change the pH
radically, within minutes. You need to monitor the
pH, especially in the first hours of starting the
injection, to prevent wide, and sometimes deadly,
swings in pH.
(See DrsFosterSmith, Big Al's, etc., for an electronic
monitor - runs off a single 9V battery.)

Start at no more than one bubble/second rate.

KNOW, your KH (AT LEAST 3, preferably around 5)value
before starting.

HAVE, the pH/KH/CO2 chart (http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/table_01.shtml)
printed and handy.

BE SURE, the regulator NEEDLE valve is turned OFF.

OPEN, the tank valve.

ADJUST, the NEEDLE valve for a flow rate of 1 bubble/second.

MONTIOR, the pH. It will drop as you adminster the CO2.
saturates the water.

THE IDEA is to regulate the flow (administer CO2) to
obtain about 19-20mg/l saturation (stay in the green
or OK part of the chart). If the ideal point requires
a pH reading too low (very lo 6's) then you will
have to raise your KH value.

In short, it is a sort of balancing act and owning
an electronic pH meter and leaving it run will make
it easier to perform.

A 30 gallon tank is the largest that DIY CO2 injection
can handle. Larger tanks require many more 2 liter
bottles, and it becomes a chore to keep them, and their
reserves, ready to go. That does not count repairing
leaky joints and bottle caps, a constant headache
with connecting and disconnecting bottles.

A bottled system is maintenance free, and you can
refill the bottle at any "tap" store (they sell
CO2 to bars, and stores that sell softdrinks).
My tank costs $9.20 to refil and lasts about 8
months.

The only thing about the system you mention
is that you will own your bottle. There is a
date stamped on the top of the bottle. Every
5 years the bottle MUST, by Federal Law, be
tested to be sure it is safe. The test is called
a "hydro-static test", and only certain places are
liscensed (certified) to test them. If your bottle
is out of date, they will not refill it no matter
how hard you plea.
It's good to have two bottles, one to supply
the tank, and one to replace it while it is being
filled or tested. I have two and keep the spare
filled at all times.

Frank


[span class="edited"][Edited by FRANK 2004-06-13 09:37][/span]

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

So you are saying I can either buy a diffuser or a reactor and be set? Which is more efficient? Diffuser or Reactor?
Can you recommend me a good one that doesn't break my back

Also, how do those pH monitor works?? How can I find out my kH? Do I have to buy the testing kit?


Also, do you think its better if I go with the Hagen CO2 system? Its pretty cheap and I can use two of them

Thanks you for your information and help.





[span class="edited"][Edited by FMZ 2004-06-13 18:48][/span]

[span class="edited"][Edited by FMZ 2004-06-13 18:49][/span]

Frank how big are your bottles? And what size tanks do you run them on?


[span class="edited"][Edited by bonny 2004-06-18 14:00][/span]

A reactor is more efficient. It causes the bubbles of co2 coming from your co2 tank to smash into some sort of media and break into smaller bubbles, or if it's enough media, to break into absolutely nothing ( dissolve into the water). A diffuser breaks apart the bigger co2 bubbles and turns them into smaller co2 bubbles which are subject to the tank currents, so they get swished around a little bit, staying in contact with the water longer, therefore dissolving better. There are also "bell" methods, where the co2 bubble is caught underneath a bell shaped cone of some kind until the gas underneath is so much that it bubbles to the top. The whole idea is to either dissolve the bubbles totally( or mostly), or keep the bubbles in contact with the water as long as possible so they dissolve a bit by default. A power reactor or inline reactor ( power is usually ran by a pump and located inside the tank, inline reactor is cylinder shaped and goes on your outflow line on your canister filter, or you can use an external pump) actively dissolve the co2, making them more effective .

Ph monitors / controllers - these have a probe which you put in the tank.. the rest of it goes outside the tank. It monitors the ph continuously. The controller kind has a place to plug in the selenoid of your co2 valve ( if your valve is equipped with one) that will turn your co2 valve on when the ph gets up to a certain ph ( whatever you have it set on). Most of your $100 usd ones aren't too exact and only monitor to .1 ph ( as in 7.2 , 7.4 and not 7.43 or 8.43 or something) and don't click on " exactly" what you have it set for. Once you have the bubble count set right the controller isn't really necessary anyway. A plain old continuous ph monitor would be just fine.

And buy a test kit for the kh. And no, don't get the hagen thing, that's the same thing as diy, which is totally inadequate for a 75 gallon. Go with the pressurized.

What if you buy two of them?? Hagen stuff??

Better yet

This

co2.shtml" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2.shtml

the 5lb tank

and this

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators/co2-premium.shtml

Commercial Grade Double Gauge Regulator or Premium Double Gauge Regulator Co2 Regulator ???

with added home made reactor ( the cup method) or putting the co2 hose into my canister filter input?

Also, what kind of tubing do I have to buy for co2 tank or in other words to hook up the co2 with my aquarium?? Where can I get it from

Thanks in advance,
FMZ


[span class="edited"][Edited by FMZ 2004-06-21 10:22][/span]

So far, I haven't invested in the pressurized...locals up here are smoking some pure stuff ]:| wants like $75 for the CO2 tank only and that is 5lbs tank

The LFS wanted $190 when I later went to buy the pressurized system.

To add, I think the idea of the pH monitor is to turn off the CO2 when it is not needed like at night when the plants do not use it. It prevents CO2 from saturating (to fill to capacity) the water (if that's possible) and poisoning the fish. It also keeps the pH from dropping too much at night and then raising again in the day.

Hi,
WOW, good comments/questions, sorry I was away on vacation.

My bottles are 5 pound bottles. The recharge cost is
$8.50+ 0.62(tax) for $9.12. It runs continuousily,
24/7/365 and it takes about 9 months to run through
a bottle at about 1 bubble/second. I keep my KH
at 5 by dosing with baking soda.
KH is Carbonate Hardness, and is part of many test
kits.
I have a pH monitor on the tank that is powered by
a 9V battery, and run it, along with the CO2 injection
constantly. I've gotten so that whenever I walk into
the room, I glance at the tank and then the meter.
It is not hooked up to a Controller. But as the
reactor becomes clogged with bacteria/algae the
water flow through it changes, and the pH changes.
When the pH has shifted a point, it is time to
clean the reactor out.

In a tank with the KH of at least 3, and preferably
up around 5, there is NO need to turn off the CO2
when the lights are turned off. If the tank is
normally stocked, there is no need to turn off the
CO2. Frankly, it took me a couple of days to get
just the right number of bubbles/second to maintain
the right CO2 saturation and pH.
Turning off the CO2 without a controller and solenoid, (much more expensive) means that you have to
turn the needle valve off, and then turn it back on
in the morning, and you are not going to "hit the same
point" each time which means that you have to constantly
"tinker" with the valve to get it right. Too much hassle.

A Controller has connections for a pH probe, and for a shut
off valve. When the pH reaches a preset level, the
controller shuts the valve and turns off the CO2. Since
the shutoff valve is in the line as it goes into the tank, and not before the needle valve, all the regulator and needle valve settings are preserved. It's like pinching the
CO2 line into the tank shut automatically. When the pH
shifts upward to a preset point, it turns the CO2 back on.
If you like "gadgets" then that is the way to go. If you
like simplicity, just turn it on as I do and forget about
it (sort of).


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I do the 10 lb. canister of co2, selenoid, ph controller , external reactor thing for my tank, keeping my kh up with crushed coral in my canister filter.I got the tank at a welding supply store, didn't even have to buy it. I just have to give them a heads up and swap it out when I need another one...which won't be for quite awhile. The ph controller isn't totally " necessary" for controlling the ph... I use mine more like an on and off switch since I have the co2 adjusted to come out where I want it and am there to turn it on for lights on and off for lights off, but if you're not going to be home it will work in a pinch. Also, the amount of guess work or standing there with test kits or a hand held ph monitor is worth getting a ph controller for to do for you. I wake up and the ph is at 7.0 to 7.2...right before lights on I turn the ph controller down until the selenoid clicks and there it goes for the day. I keep the ph down to 7.0-7.2 ( would be 7.7-7.8 without co2), during the day, then at night, as you know, the plants release co2 keeping the ph roughly where I had it during the day, then when I turn it back on in the morning it keeps it the same ph.. if the ph went higher during the night then I want it to be during the day, I just cut the co2 on that much earlier before lights on.

I know that some people that use pressurized don't use selenoids and just add an airstone at night to outgas the co2, but that seems like such a waste..but as frank said turning it off and getting it set just right every day is not exactly the best way either. I'd be sure to get a nice valve with a selenoid, and save the headache. Examples of a good regulator would be http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20758&item=4310194278&rd=1. JBL makes a similar one, which is the one I own and also has bubble counter built in.

Other than that, make sure whatever tank you get can be refilled locally...which is why it's best to buy it somewhere locally or check with local sources to make sure if whatever cylinder you were going to buy they wouldn't have a problem refilling. Some places will only refill their own tanks....

I paid $85 for my jbl selenoid valve, $85 for Miluakee ph controller, $70 or something for an aquamedic 1000 external co2 reactor ( after a diy one did itself in), and I think $25 for a 10 lb. tank full of co2 which I do not own...sort of a rent-free rental agreement. They took so long and caused so much grief trying to get a smaller tank for me, the welding supply place didn't have the heart to charge me a monthly fee for keeping their tank...but they have it on the books that I am in possession of it.
How much you spend is up to you and your sources, but it's better to get something you won't want to replace in a few months because it's a p.i.t.a.

[span class="edited"][Edited by jake 2004-07-03 10:59][/span]

You can get CO2 reg on ebay or the beer places.
Cost 20-55$ or so. Add a Clippard needle valve for 11-20$ to that. Or buy a jbj complete with solenoid for about 90-100$.
Tanks will run about 40-100$ for 5-10lbs.
Reactors are easy to build for about 10$.
See http://www.gwapa.org/articles/inlineco2reactor.asp

Main cost are the tank and reg.

dlink has a link for a 5lb tank and reg for 99$(and shiopping is included from what I understood), but you will need to add a needle valve. So for tank, reg, needle valve, about 120$ should do it. 10$ for the reactor. 5$ for the pH test kit.

pH monitors are nice, but not required, a good narrow range pH test kits does the job nicely.

Regards,
Tom Barr

dlink has a link for a 5lb tank and reg for 99$(and shiopping is included from what I understood), but you will need to add a needle valve. So for tank, reg, needle valve, about 120$ should do it. 10$ for the reactor. 5$ for the pH test kit.

dlink??? where at?

Here:

http://www.dlink.org/aqua/CO2.html
http://rapidswholesale.net/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BD435

Note, you will need to use a Clippard( Nupro etc) needle valve added to this. see www.clippard.com etc or buy from vendors.

If dealing with piecing it together is an issue, you can always buy the stuff from the LFS etc if saving a few $ is not that big of a deal.

Just search around on goggle etc for the parts and the how to. Plenty of info out there.

Regards,
Tom Barr