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Hi Mat,

"So I was hoping for some personal experience, cause I've done my reading before asking this question, purchased otos(have a BN), and dosed what I think is an acceptable amount of ferts (you may think it's too much, and I'd love to know!). It's been about 4 weeks since I started my fert schedule and bought the otos. So far I've noticed only slow growth of both plants and algae."

Personally, I would not add fertilizers to an aquarium
unless the plants were showing signs of need (color change
wilting, etc.) See this site: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm
It is too easy to over dose, and encourage algae growth
this way.

"So what are your experiences with algea control/healty plants? Do you have a small stock and mostly plants to limit phosphates/nutrients?"

I use alot of fast growing stem plants, and floating
plants. The stem plants use nutrients faster than plants
such as the mosses, swords, crypts, etc. They get their
nutrients through the rapidly growing root system, and
some through the leaves. I use floating plants as they
draw their nutrients directly from the water column,
consuming the nutrients even faster.

"Or do you buy a fleet of otos and a BN and they take care of it?"

The only problem with purchasing these critters, is that
you gotta feed them. Assuming they will eat the varieties
of algae in your tank, once they have consumed them
(assuming you have enough of them) then you need to provide
some source of food as they will pretty much keep the algae
trimed down to near extinction.


"Do you use a phosphate remover?"

No, at the present time I do not. I do need to get a
phosphate test kit, that gives reliable results, and is
also easy to use. Most I've seen need advanced knowledge
of chemistry to obtain the correct dilutions and results.

"Do you do 85% water changes daily(exaggerating, of course)?"

I stick to a once a week water change of 5 gallons for
a 30 gallon tank.
When I initally set up the tank, after the addition
of 3 inches of substrate, I then filled the tank with
water to the beginnings of the black plastic trim.
Then I took and empty & clean 1 gallon milk jug, and
with drew one gallon at a time.
I then marked the back side of the tank with a felt tip
marker (water proof, permanent) for each gallon removed.
This way, with a python or any other hose, I can draw
down the water 1,2 3,4 or 5 gallons by simply syphoning
off the water down to the predetermined mark.

Unless you have a tank specifically modeled after one
outlined in Diana Walstad's book ECOLOGY of the PLANTED
AQUARIUM, I firmly belive in regular, preferably weekly,
water changes. A small 10% change each week is actually
better than a large one once a month or something similiar.
Large water changes give the opportunity to stress the
fish with incorrect pH, temperature, or GH or KH values.
Small ones will not stress the fish, and yet accomplish
the purpose.

A water change is your way of immicking natures way of
refreshing the water outdoors, Rain.


"How much and of what kind of ferts do you use?"

I don't use any. I have a substrate of 100% flourite,
and the tank is lightly stocked (7 black skirt tetras,
2 flame tetras, and 2 ottos).


"I have about 2.5 WPG, for 11.5 hrs. a day. pH consistantly around 8. Without CO2 it was bout 8.5. I think I mentioned everything else, let me know if I'm not providing enough information."

I have a compact flourscent hood with two independent bulbs.
They are each 65 watts, 8800K bulbs. (I wanted 6700K but
could not find them in the 65 watt size, so I compromised.)
I have timers on the lights set so that one bulb is on for
10 hrs/day and the other comes on at 10am and goes off at
2pm. This mimicks the tropical noonday sun at its peak
for four hours of the ten.

I monitor my pH 24/7 with a "Pinpoint"(brand) pH monitor
that I purchased from Drs FosterSmith, and maintain a
pH of about 6.7, a GH of about 4, and a KH of about 6.
I use crushed coral ( a few grains) in my filter to maintain the GH,
and I use a 1/2 teaspoon of unscented Baking Soda to maintain the KH.

I use a "Bottled" CO2 system and inject it at the rate
of about two bubbles/second. At that rate a 10 pound
bottle lasts about 7-8 months, and costs $9 to recharge.

With your high pH, I assume that your water is hard as
well. Since the bulk of the tropicals come from tanks
in pet shops where they strive to hold the pH at 7.0,
placing them in your tanks should involve a slow acclimating
process. Once brought up to the 8.0 pH, then I'd not worry
about them. As Gary and others have said, it's not so
much the actual pH they are kept in, as it is the shift
in the pH that stresses them and can lead to disease, or
death.

I Hope I've given you some insight into my tank conditons
and suggestions/comments for yours that help.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 22-Oct-2004 12:30

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I figured that since almost three weeks have passed, I'd update this thread a little. The water sprite I bought is doing great and has grown to at least twice the size I bought it at. The algea is starting to grow on the older parts of the plant, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem because of how fast the plant grows. Hopefully it is working on those nutrients along with my water changes. I also bought more crypts because I just love that plant, and any extra plant will probably help even if it is a slow grower.

I decided to fork out the dough for a phosphate test kit. The $15 proved worth it because I tested the tap and it had about 1.5 ppm of PO4, and my tank had over 2ppm (which is the most the test kit reads). Despite the mixed reviews of the PO4 pillows, I decided that the only way to remove it was through the use of the pillow. So far *knock on wood* it hasn't had any adverse effect on my fish, as it produces much less heat than I was led to believe. As I previously stated, the PO4 in my tank was over 2ppm, and my test today revealed a lowly .2 ppm of PO4.

I haven't seen as much new growth of the algea I was experiencing, but it is still growing. So I'm sure that other nutrients are also to blame. Hopefully my new water sprite bush will be my nutrient "pillow" and will take out the excesses and I can find an equilibrium.

The only other thing I haven't had the time and money to do is build that CO2 reactor. I put this off because I am dosing some CO2, just not to the utmost of my potential. This is now on the top of my to do listbut might take me a week or 2 to get around to.

The only question I can think of to ask is how low should I drop the PO4 to? I know plants need it, but I don't know at what levels they need it. If I do take the pillow out, will my plants(water sprite and others) now keep the levels down even though I have so much in the tap, or will I need to keep using the pillow on and off...or prefilter my tap water?

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well, after some reading it looks like I'm going to make one of those diffusers. I like the one that is on the website MO gave me. Thanks MO! I'll be doing this as soon as I scrounge up the money for it. Looks like it will run about 30 bucks. Time to return the cans and bottles! Also, I'm going to keep buying more plants and look into a phosphate test, because I read that the BBA (which is, decidedly the main algea type that I have) tends to be present in high phosphate levels. I just checked the price of a PO4 test and it was $15 at my lfs....whew. Well I will update everyone when all my hard work, and your advice pays off in the form of a lush, green, balanced aquarium.

Thanks,
matt

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Again, thanks for the replys.

I did DIY for 10 years. I made an easy to make DIY reactor that waste excess DIY(or gas tank) CO2 once the water is high in CO2 and then is 100% efficent when the water is poor in CO2, these cost 0-10$ and require a small power head.

Plantbrain, this sounds interesting. Is there a site somewhere explaining this reactor or is it the same as the ones on the sites previously listed? I think I need to read into the reactors/diffusers a little more.

I found some water sprite at the lfs today and bought 3 bushels of it. Last time these died on me, hopefully this time I'm better suited for them.



Last edited by mattyboombatty at 22-Oct-2004 23:33

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Mat,
As Plant Brain hinted, the trick with CO2 injection
of any kind is how long the gas stays in contact with
the water. You can use what is called a difuser.
The good ones are made of slintered glass and act as
a super airstone that breaks the gas into bubbles
as fine as mist. These are subject to the currents
within the tank, and take forever to rise to the surface
where they would break and return to the atmosphere.
They are so small that most don't make the surface and
instead are absorbed by the water.

Another way is to use a reactor. It's a jug, usually
with many passages. The gas and water are injected at
one end and the "supercharged" water exits the other end.
Usually you use a power head to pump the water into
the reactor. Others use the output of the filter
through the reactor and then back into the tank.

Injecting it into the output of the filter may break the
bubbles up, but they need to be very very fine, almost
mist like to really work.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I think you may wish to figure out how to better diffuse the DIY CO2 gas you have.
Excel might be more convenient for a small tank, but CO2 gas will give the best results as far as growth if used properly.

That's not a Gas.Excel issue, that's a user issue.

You may want to look at different sites about diffusion and controlling the volume etc.

I did DIY for 10 years. I made an easy to make DIY reactor that waste excess DIY(or gas tank) CO2 once the water is high in CO2 and then is 100% efficent when the water is poor in CO2, these cost 0-10$ and require a small power head.

Regards,
Tom Barr

well if your dosing co2 and not noticing any growth it could be lighting thats limiting your growth. but most of your plants are slow growers to begin with. so even at optimal condition it its hard to notice much growth or pearling with these plants.

That was awesome Frank! Very informative and exactly what I was looking for. Sorry if I came off a bit rude, but sometimes the experienced FPers are sick of getting the same questions(which I try very hard not to ask) and hand out formulated replys or send the inexperienced to a website....which I understand completely. It saves time in answering the basic questions. I've had my planted tank for a couple months trying to tweak things, but I've been a bit stuck.The websites explain the theory of ferts, CO2, and lighting etc. but never show the process in practice(that I have found), so it's a little hard to start off on the right foot. Your replys are very helpful and appreciated. Maybe one day I can help advise newbies in the right direction.

So it seems the general consensus is to ex the ferts(maybe leave the root tabs in) unless plants show a deficiency, go out and buy the ugliest, fastest growing plant(s) possible, and do what I can to increase CO2 production. Since I already do 15% weekly water changes, I'll keep that the same, since my tank is stocked pretty well, and nitrates are under control at 10-20 ppm. I may try to find one of those complicated phosphate tests, because I'm in organic chem now and it might be good practice. As far as CO2 is concerned, I think I may add another DIY bottle through the power filter and see if that works out. I might also work on one of those DIY diffusers, but I need a powerhead and they don't grow on aquatic plants, so to speak.

Well I'm off to The Fish Place to get some fast growing plants and possibly trade in my diffective rummynose tetras. I'll post back to let everyone know how the process went.

Thanks to everyone,
Matt

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Don't know if you've seen this site, but it has a cheap DIY diffuser for the yeast method that is a bit better than using a bell. I haven't actually gotten around to trying it myself...but it seems like it would work better.

http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html#6

Last edited by MO at 22-Oct-2004 12:34

Last edited by MO at 22-Oct-2004 12:35

Is there anyway to dose carbon to plants without CO2? I have DIY CO2 using a bell diffuser, but it doesn't seem to have a huge effect. I dose ferts with those stakes that you put by the roots, and a combination of Kent freshwater plant, pro-plant, and blackwater extract(less than half dose for those). I don't have to have pearling plants, but I want some more growth(from plants and not algea). I've been trying to outcompete the algea, and have my plants look healthier. There hasn't been any huge explosion of algea, mostly just slow growth. The tank has been up for quite some time...half of the gravel is about a year old now.

Whole Tank 40G

Oh I have:
1 Red wendtii (large) Pic
3 green wendtii Pic
1 Amazon sword (large) Pic
1 Anubias unknown (Large,has tall long leaves like a sword) Pic
4-5 Java fern [link=Pic]http:// pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/matty_boom_batty/detail?.dir=fcee&amp;.dnm=6c9e.jpg&amp;.src=ph[/link]
4-5 Jungle Vals
1 Moss Ball
1 ton of algea (Green and Beard algea) Pic

Anyways, is there some way to improve my plants' health without buying a CO2 setup(I'm a poor college kid)? I also heard that phosphates may be the limiting factor for algea, and if that is the nutrient made to be on short order, plants may be able to better out-compete the algea...does this have any truth behind it?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

The link to the site worked, but the link inside the page to the DIY reactor didn't work.

Nevermind, it works now...with the menu, I was trying to use the link in the article and it didn't work.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 22-Oct-2004 08:17

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

I checked the link, works fine for me

Maybe try again later. If not do a google for Chucks Planted Aquarium and that will bring you to the site. Just check the menu. Lot's of good info and advice for starting up a tank there as well as tips for good DIY Co2 components.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

That's what I was looking for, a real opinion on the matter. Thanks Bensaf, I'll check out the site later this afternoon, as I'm due for class in a few minutes. Maybe check out the lfs for some "weeds."

If People have different experiences, I'd still appreciate the post.

thanks,
matt

Actually I just tried the link to the DIY reactor and it gave me a 404 error.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 22-Oct-2004 06:34

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

There is a site here http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/diy_co2rig.htm to a site that is actually about building your own pressurized system BUT there is link on the page to how to build your own very efficient reactor very cheaply with bits and bobs.

As for algae problem, my advise would be this; don't worry about trying to tinker with fert dosage, just stop completely with the exception of well buried root tabs. I hardly ever use liquid ferts and the plants still try to grow out of the tank. Unless they are showing some signs of deficiency they don't need the additional fert which will just be used by the algae.

The other thing I would do is throw in a lot of fast growing plants. Stuff it full of weeds ! Don't worry about the look of the tank, just get them in there to compete with the algae for nutrients and then later you can pull out what you don't like and concentrate on your aquascape.
None of your stock of plants are ever going to win any growing races, they are all slow to medium speed growers add this to fact that you are adding ferts they probably don't need, you've got a nice amount of light but poor Co2 output,and no real competitors to the algae, well the algae are winning.

For me the key to a successful planted tank, is starting out very very densely plant and NO ferts. This lets the tank find it's balance and get a good head start on the algae. It's natural for people to set the equipment up first, such as nice lights etc, but then add the plants slowly a few at a time. But this just gives the algae time to gain a foothold and before you know it it's all going sour. Approach it kinda like a hairdresser - fill the tank with plants as much as possible and then when you have a big wild mess growing, get the scissors out and start trimming and shaping and highlighting etc until you have the creation you originally envisioned. It takes a bit longer this way but is almost always more successful and easier.
Stop the ferts, throw in some fast growers,a few algae eaters (Black Mollies are non stop algae munchers, if you don't like them you can drop them in for a while then give back to the LFS?) get the Co2 levels up , then when things settle slowly go back to the liquid fert (if the plants look like they need it) and I think you'll have yor algae beat.

Hope it works out

Last edited by bensaf at 22-Oct-2004 01:08

Last edited by bensaf at 22-Oct-2004 01:10

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf for the reply! I think I may have seen the Flourish product, I'll ask around about that. You mentioned a better reactor, I'm all ears for cheap ways to improve on my bell diffuser. I've heard that you can plug it into the power filter, but I've also heard mixed reviews about it. I know good diffusers around here are, well not in my price range.

Another thing I wanted to ask you plant wizards was if my plants look healthy save for the algea? I'm full of questions....sorry!

Tank is 38G tall...same footprint as a regular 30G.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 21-Oct-2004 21:59

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Good site there Frank. I've heard just about all of that from various sources, and they only very breifly touched on the nutrients.

So I was hoping for some personal experience, cause I've done my reading before asking this question, purchased otos(have a BN), and dosed what I think is an acceptable amount of ferts (you may think it's too much, and I'd love to know!). It's been about 4 weeks since I started my fert schedule and bought the otos. So far I've noticed only slow growth of both plants and algea.

So what are your experiences with algea control/healty plants? Do you have a small stock and mostly plants to limit phosphates/nutrients? Or do you buy a fleet of otos and a BN and they take care of it? Do you use a phosphate remover? Do you do 85% water changes daily(exaggerating, of course)? How much and of what kind of ferts do you use?

I have about 2.5 WPG, for 11.5 hrs. a day. pH consistantly around 8. Without CO2 it was bout 8.5. I think I mentioned everything else, let me know if I'm not providing enough information.

Websites aren't very good at saying I tweaked the amount of ferts a little, or changed the duration of lighting, or this is a balance of ferts that works pretty well. I'd appreciate the input A TON.

Thanks,
matt

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

As Frank said it's a case of getting in Carbon in a form that the plants can break down easily.

There are only 2 ways I know of getting some carbon in without injection of some sort (either pressurised or DIY):

Flourish have a liquid fert , I think it's Excel, that is a form of liquid carbon. They "claim" it will absolutely not encourage algae. I've never used it so you may want to check with others who have.

Azoo have a new product which is Co2 in tablet form which you just plop in the water. The problem is they say it's really only suitable for small tanks of 10gals or so. Don't know what size your tank is. I'm going to test them on my 5 gal planted, it's $3 for a box which I reckon would last the 5g a month, so it's pretty reasonable.

There may be ways of improving the output of your Co2 for better results. A better reactor, for example, will make more efficient use of the co2 your producing. Maybe try a reactor that breaks up the bubbles and gives better results in dissolving the co2 into the water. I think the bell type diffuser you mention are better suited to smaller tanks.

Last edited by bensaf at 21-Oct-2004 21:29

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi,
CO2 is the easiest way to "feed" plants Carbon.
They can break the molecule apart very easily.
The other way that they get Carbon is by breaking up
the organic molecules that result from the fertilizers
that you are placing in the tank, as well as the results
of the decaying fish waste, food, and any decaying plant material.

Do be cautious about what/how much fertilizers you give
the plants as you can also overdose and set a banquet
table of nutrients for the algae to thrive on.

Check out this site:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/algcontags.htm

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 21-Oct-2004 17:08

Last edited by FRANK at 21-Oct-2004 17:11

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--