FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Hello all

Little fish-

Ive seen your critcism of 'nano' in another thread so I should say 'nano cube 12 dx' is the trade marked name of this aquarium.

The aquarium has a false back where the filtration is and there is space for the heater to be hidden back there. I was doing an equipment check at that point to make sure it worked.

You have a rather good eye looking at the background. It is an intersting illusion you saw. I had just filled the tank for the first time and there were lots of bubbles sticking to the sides, these create the texture you see in the background. The lines which made it look like brick are the fill lines at the end of a bucket of water. The actual background is just black plastic of the false back.

To be honest, while I knew the measurements of the wood it looked rather skinnier in the ebay auction picture. I was supprised by it but am going to try to work with it anyway, though it will probably create a bit of a chalenge. I am not planning on relying on magic to hold up the wood. I got some slate and stainless steel screws to hold the wood at whaterver angle I decide.

Tetratech- You are absolutly right about the light. I thought the 50/50 bulbs were an upgrade and assumed I would be getting freshwater ones. I will get that fixed in the next week or so.

Bensaf- I think I am following that you mean about the mound but I am not compleetly sure. is it something like these but focused around the wood?

http://www.aquabotanic.com/images/birgitglosso.JPG

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi?&Scale=514&op=showcase&category=0&vol=0&id=36

If I follow you the mound will make the wood the centerpiece and the plants more like a decoration, this makes sense because of the size of the wood. Trying to minimise the wood would probably be futile. Surrounding the wood with a low lying grass like plant like the one in the very front of this http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi?&Scale=514&op=showcase&category=0&vol=0&id=18 may be good. Let me know If i understand the idea correctly.

Im going to play around with the wood layout and try to decide about where it should go, particularly the verticle piece.

At the moment for fish I keep thinking about lemon tetras or von rios. these are about the smallest tetras I can find around here (not counting neons which I think might be upset by the bright light)

Bob- Im glad Im not the only person who has had trouble with this substrate. I got the water clear again with a bit of filtering and will be carefull with the flourite in the future.

Thanks all

Chaos


__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos

I can already see that we will have lots of fun with you in our planted group.

Reasons:

- You are funny and witty
- You do your homework
- You are ambitious (as can be seen by the tanks you selected as possible models)

You said you read the other thread where I criticize “Nano”, don’t take that as belittling to your tasks at hand, that is not my intention. I just have a different vision of what small means as I am trying hard to someday soon get a “true” Nano with maybe 3G up and running.

Have a Happy New Year, and I hope we will have lots of fun and excitement next year when we (hopefully) see your tank being set up and blossom.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Also the anubias I am getting was grown out of water so I will need to transition it, or could even keep it out of water for a little while if i need to.

No problem. Anubias grow pretty much the same in water as out of water. They don't really need any transition. Somebody once said they are so slow growing they don't even realise they're underwater.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

That looks like a 40g oceanic cube, so not alot of light at all. Also it's a deep tank so the foreground would probably be a major headache from a maint. and growing prospective.

What type of hairgrass is that in the back that would grow in that light?








My Scapes

I guess the plant is Eleocharis acicularis. Although it looks like it grows new leaves out of the base in the Amano tanks I think to remember that Bensaf mentioned that they acrually have new shoots on various heights of the original plant.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

All hail me indeed

Bensaf, i really think Ive got the idea now and Have attached a HD rendering of what I think this would look like in my tank.

http://picshosted.com/v/5794/untitled.bmp

This seems like a good to deal with the wood. A big question for me is while you said this will be easy to maintain will this be easy to move? I will be moving the aquarium from here (was dc) to boston, an 8hr drive in septemeber. This is a ways away but I feel I should consider this.

If you still think I should go for the mound, given the move, I have some questions.

First, for the structure, it will be composed of just rocks and wood? or will there be peat as well. Either way I will be doing rock collecting near my house most likley (depeding on how the creek water looks). If there is no peat are all the plants attached to the rocks ones that survive on liquid ferts alone?

For lighting, should I keep the 50/50s. Im sure I can kind of trade em in with the aquarium company but I shouldnt wait long to do that.

If the foregound was planted with a short grass of some form would that in fact be more maitnece? If there was grass then there would be no need to vacume that gravel so that would be less matinence? Just wondering.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I love your drawing

A square cinder block with fins sticking out, plus little plugs that look like my hair in front of it, lovely

Traveling is never easy, I am most certain it will get messy no matter what you do.

Many plants survive on liquid ferts alone, only a few species require explicit fertilization through the substrate. These usually have an elaborate root system anyway and that wouldn’t be feasible for your tank in the first place, IMHO. In the worse case you would be able to add root tabs (or spikes) in the substrate for the plant that needs it.

I would not keep the 50/50 as the actinic is for sure not doing you any good and actually might (not sure) help the algae. A good K range to get would be 6,700K to 8,000K, 5,000K and 10,000K are ok as well.

Well, foreground or not, maintenance would have to be done. No foreground = gravel vacuuming, foreground means trimming and vacuuming the yuckies out of the plants. To sum it up, plain gravel would be less maintenance.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah, well I assume you actually understood the drawing. Ill assume that I do need a few rocks and will go looking tomarrow.

I guess ill deal with weather or not to plant the front in a while and try to manage the mound thing first.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

A big question for me is while you said this will be easy to maintain will this be easy to move?

It doesn't get any easier ! Just pull out the rocks and wood. No plants to uproot. Most will be attached to the wood rocks very strongly by that stage. There's no need to silicone the rocks and wood together. Just pile them on top of one another in a fairly stable manner.

First, for the structure, it will be composed of just rocks and wood? or will there be peat as well.

There's no need to use peat anywhere in the tank. All plants will draw nutrients from the water column through their leaves , they only use their roots if the water is too lean in nutrients. Anubias,Ferns and Mosses are specifically build to draw nutrients from the water. The roots are more for anchoring them to the woods and rock.

Either way I will be doing rock collecting near my house most likley (depeding on how the creek water looks).

Just make sure they are the same color/type. Don't worry about the atwer , you can wash/boil/bake the rocks to get rid of any nasties.

If there is no peat are all the plants attached to the rocks ones that survive on liquid ferts alone?

Ok time for your first fertilizing lesson ALL plants will do very well by just ferilizing the water.No need for fancy substrates or peat. In fact unless you really know what you are doing avoid Peat like the plague.
BUT do not confuse fertilizing the water with just using a liquid fert. A typical liquid fert only provides micronutrients. These are a wide range of nutrients that the plants require small quantites of , hence the micro. You will also need to add macronutrients. These are the ones that the plant needs in abundance and must be present all the time - Nitrate, Phosphate, Potassium,Calcium. We also add these to the water, either in powder form or in liquid form if you use the Seachem range. How much or how often is added is dependent on a number of factors,light/fishload/plant mass - mainly is carbon added and if so, how. We'll get to that later. For this tank I would definately reccomend the Excel approach. Use Co2 later when you've becaome a sick sick junkie like the rest of us and have got some experience under yopur belt and want to build that huge planted tank of your dreams. You will succumb, it's a when not an if

For lighting, should I keep the 50/50s.
Get rid of them. They will make the tank look like complete and utter crap ! We are not building a boring mass of grey rock like the salty folks Can you get a K reading from the bulbs. If one of the bulbs is 10K that would be usable, it has a nice white light, anything above that will be too blue and will wash out the colors of your fish and plants.

If the foregound was planted with a short grass of some form would that in fact be more maitnece? If there was grass then there would be no need to vacume that gravel so that would be less matinence? Just wondering.

Yes a foreground grass would be more maintenance. BTW you'll quickly find that vacumning a will be the least of your work worries in a plants tank ! The joy of a planted tank is it's dynamic, it's always growing therfore it's constantly changing. The grassy plants while way less work then fast growing stem plants still require maintenance. They spead throughout the tank by producing new plants on runners, eventually you'll have too many and need to tidy them up and remove some. Noramally this not too much work, it's just in such a small tank it'll happen quicker and you don't have much room for your hands to do the delicate work required. I'd aim for something that never needs your hand to go in. But it's your call.

BTW, that's about the worst rendering of tank design on MS Paint I have ever seen but I catch your drift.

Tetra , yeah Ingo's right about the plant. Unlike the Dwarf Hairgrass it produces runners very high up the leaf. Some people like this , others hate it and trim the runners off immediately. Maybe that's what Amano does. Or as it's him, he's probably using a completely different plant then we think !!! The plant he uses looks very much like a plant I picked up in Singapore and love - Vallisnera Nana. Very very thin, almost hairgrass thin, but much less "stiff" looking then hairgrass, more flowy and a richer color. I have some pics of mine if anyones interested , you can compare.

Last edited by bensaf at 01-Jan-2006 21:12

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hey,

Things are making sense. I feel like I can move forward a bit at least.

For the creek water I am not worried about biological things, Its the chemical ones that concern me. There is sometimes an oily look to the water. I will have to decide if I think i can remove any chems.

Ill post a picture of a dry run of the mound asap.

Thanks for the advice. Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Hello all,

Ive got both the rocks and wood in my tank. Below is a photo of the dry run of the formation. The rocks and wood are in the tank, but because of the gravel the water is still a bit too cloudy to allow a picture to be taken. The mound looks moderatly big in the tank but there is some foreground left which is good.

http://picshosted.com/v/6705/DSCF00221.JPG

Also, I have found a version of annubis which looks ideal for my tank:

http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=101H

Possibly also something like this:

http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=002C

or for the foreground (which i know some are recomending against, but im thinking about it)

http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=067B

Also, java moss or some other moss was mentioned. Any suggestions are welcome, particularly for small plants or somthing in the background, though I am fine sticking with the black background at the moment.

I am wondering where I should expect I can find these specific plants, in particular, the tiny anubis plant. [if a web site they need to ship to washington dc] Also, If these are going to take a while to arrive should I get some fish in the tank. I dont know if it is a bad idea to leave the tank without any biological activity that I want (i.e. will anything bad accumulate if I wait much longer to introduce fish?) I have biospira so I think I should be able to introduce two lemons without any problems.

Input on any of this would be helpful, thanks all,

Chaos

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 05-Jan-2006 11:58

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

For the grass, I would be looking for somthing much shorter than the one above, 5cm tops

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Almost any fish store should carry anubias nana, I found it out here in the middle of nowhere, in the north, you get where I'm coming from? Anyway, I would stick with the mound and not try the grassy foreground as it looks much cleaner without. I love that tank Bensaf showed. The rock arrangement looks great. That liverwort and the nana would look great on it. There are two java ferns that would also fit, the regular and the 'windelov' variety. I love that plant! And mosses are great for coverage as well. Good luck and keep the pics coming, I'm looking forward to seeing this nano cube emerge.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Maximus,
Ya know what I think you did I good job with the hardscape. It's not always easy to arrange the wood and rock together. Once the green grows in it should look very nice.

All those anubias are good. I'm not familiar with Monosolenium tenerum, but Bensaf might be. There are alot of mosses you could use on the mound including xmas, java, taiwan,etc. Here's a link to a good moss website.

http://www.aquamoss.net/

My Scapes

Almost any fish store should carry anubias nana

True, BUT the Nana would just be a tad too big IMO, the Anubias Petite would be a much better choice.

The Monosellium (Pellia) is a nice choice too. Treat it preety much like Moss, tied it down and it will attach to rocks or wood, easy but slow growing.

Any type of moss will do but my own preference would be Taiwain, it's just a bit prettier, smaller and slower growing. Less maintanence, looks good longer.

The sword you linked too would be too big for the foregound. Tenellus or Dwarf Sag would be better choices.

Another forground option would be Riccia. Tie to some flat rocks or piece of slate with hair net. A few of these will give a thick grassy appearance. For maintaining just pull out the rocks give the Riccia a "haircut" plop back in.

All these plants are easy enough to find but really buying on-line would be your only option, they will not be available in your average LFS.

Those are nice rocks and you've done a real good job on the arrangement. I think this tank could be a keeper.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh good, I was really worried I would have to throw this tank back.

I was looking at the petite version of the anubias and think I pointed at that link.

As for the liverwort, it seems like that is more solid a plant than the java moss which allways looks kind of fluffy and structureless. The dust from my substrate gave me a very good look at the currents in the tank and I think, even tied down, the moss might not stick well. Ill look at the website dedicated to moss though just to be sure.

Ill post pics tomorrow of the hard scape in the tank which luckily doesnt look oppresivly full.

Also, and this one is important, Practically speeking If i am going with the petit and the liverwort how many should I purchase, any suggestions on the placement pattern or plant ratios would be helpfull. Im going to keep that cube bensaf attached as a guide unless someone has suggestions.

Chaos,

Any votes on adding fish now or in aprox a week when I should be able to have plants?

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 06-Jan-2006 02:55

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

I would say add the fish after the plants. Reasons:

1) Why stress new fish (less than a week in your tank) by making an additional major mess when adding the plants to their tank?

2) Less chance of a mini cycle.

3) After all plants are in you might change your mind on what kind of fish might look good in the tank.

I completely understand the urge to have something moving in there, but I would suggest to resists and wait just that one more week. What is one week anyway in the live span of a tank

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

True, BUT the Nana would just be a tad too big IMO, the Anubias Petite would be a much better choice.

hey bensaf, how much does a. b. v. nana petite cost where you live? You suggest it so often and you obviously think highly of it, but here in the States in most of the online places I've seen it's expremely expensive for such a small slow growing plant. A little quarter to half dollar sized bit of it can cost 8-10 dollars - and it's not as if you can bu a little and grow it out in areasonable amount of time! Just curious how much it goes for by you.

Also, Chaos, nice job on preparing your tank. Small tanks seem like a lot of fun to set-up, several of us are knawing at the bit waiting to work on our own... well, one of us is, anyway...

But i agree with LFs suggestion #3 - really wait until the tank is set up and grows in a bit before adding fish, it can save you a lot of trouble, and you very well might change your mind as to what you want in there after seeing the tank actually set up

---

Back in the saddle!

The wet version:

http://picshosted.com/v/7010/DSCF0044.JPG

I suppose I will show resolve and wait on the fish. The company I bought the tank from is going to trade me the 50/50s for the 6500k bulbs. I only need to pay shipping which is great.

Ill try to find a plant store that has the species we were talking about but I did see hight prices one the liverwort I think, so I will have to decide on what Im willing to pay.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

I like it! It will look really good with the nana petite and moss growing on it!
Get lots of moss and the anubias, enough to cover most of the mound. I'd also try not to have more than three species of plants, it will add to the drama of the mound.

I see salt there beside the tank, you may want to hold up on that and not use it. Some have said that the salt is not good for the plants, so far I have had no problems with it but just warning you. In my case the salt was there before the plants in the 25g, but the plants went in the 10g and I have not added as much salt to it. In fact I no longer add salt to the tank and my fish seem to be fine. Keep it handy though it definitely has it's uses.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Chaos,

I Like the way you have that big rock in the front, it gives you a good base to plant groundcover in front of and still see some rock, my only critism is that it looks like the driftwood on the left is touching or just about touching the glass. If so, that would not be a good look it will make the tank look much smaller and unnatural. It looks like your wet mound is slightly more open than your dry mound pic was.

My Scapes

hey bensaf, how much does a. b. v. nana petite cost where you live? ,

Ok I have to admit it's pretty cheap here, $5 will get you a good clump of about 5" by 5"

You suggest it so often and you obviously think highly of it

I do. For a reason. It's a very unique plant in terms of size, looks and ease of use. In some applications, like nano tanks, there's simply nothing else that can do the same job.
It shares all the advantages of Anubias but it's size makes it even more versatile.
Anubias are expensive, but they are a very worthwhile investment IMO. There's no reason they shouldn't last a lifetime. They are easy and undemanding to grow and require almost no maintenance. They ARE a plastic plant that grows.
The fact that they can be tied to rocks, wood or simply planted and kept shaded by other plants gives them a versatility of use that no other plant can offer.
As I say the small size of petite just makes it more attractive and versatile in my book.

If you want to be serious about a 'scape you need the best quality stock you can afford. This is especially true for plants. Try to get the best most attractive plants you can.

The pros not only set up a tank with a layout in mind but they will have very very specific plants in mind and won't start until they have those plants in their hands. Not a luxury most of us can afford but we should try our best nonetheless.
If you want something tall to fill the back most will settle on one of the common Vals because they are easy to find. But there are many other plants that will do the same job much better and much more attractively, the good guys will make the effort to seek out these plants. Their tanks are always going to be better because of it.

Another plant I keep harping on about is Narrow Leaf Fern. For the same reasons. It's one hundred times better and easier to use in a scape then regular Java Fern. I know it's not as easy to find but making the effort will be rewarding.

Blyxa Japonica is the same, as I'm sure tetra will testify. I bet he's glad he made the effort to get that plant rather then "settle" on something else.

Another plant I'm really getting to like is Blyxa Aubertii. I'll be pushing that one next. Don't know why you'd let a val or sag within a 100 feet of your tank if this plant is available. At first glance it's just like a val but it maxes out at about 18", doesn't have the runner chaos of vals, much prettier more delicate leaves then vals, and will easily take on a deep red color.Just as easy to grow. So does the same job as the Vals but a handful of added advantages. So well worth the extra effort to seek it out.

so I will have to decide on what Im willing to pay.

See all of above.

You need a lot of Anubias and Moss/Pellia. They are slow growing so you need to start with a lot.


Last edited by bensaf at 06-Jan-2006 20:38

Last edited by bensaf at 06-Jan-2006 20:42

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I think i will probably go ahead an order the petite. If, as the tank cycles I begin to have trouble with algae or nitrates or something I can get a medium sized plant from the LFS to consume those nutrients. Hopefully I will locate some HC (Im folling every lead I can think of right now) and have that planted. Also the anubias I am getting was grown out of water so I will need to transition it, or could even keep it out of water for a little while if i need to.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Fair enough, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway - just from the standpoint of, it really does take these little plants a long time to grow.

Also, will these be the only plants in there right now? I know it's hard to hold off on planting a little bit at a time (just to have something alive, as you say) but, there may be distinct advantages to setting everything up first and planting everything all at once rather than planting as you go along, namely it helps fend off algae right from the start. A little patience may save you some headaches down the road.


and LF, yes it is a long way, but they have some plants you can't find too often in the USA... plus anubias is a tank, def. hardy enough to survive the trip...

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 10-Jan-2006 12:32

---

Back in the saddle!

I saw that auction before and was thrown by the lord of the rings reference. These plants, with 30 leave are probably much larger than the ones I was looking at, thanks,

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

NowherMan6,

They sit in Malaysia, wow - that is one long shipping route.

You say you got stuff from them before?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey chaos,

Just one thing: I have no experience with aquariumplants.com for petite nanas, from what I've seen around they're shipped in pretty small portions, so I don't know how large or how much you'll be given.

You may want to try a person on aquabid.com called Aquaticmagic

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?liveplantsr&1137553455

A little quirky, but they speicify that each order will give you about 30 leaves, which seems pretty good for the price. It's a buy it now option, so you need not worry about bidding wars etc. and you can always order a few. I've dealt with this person before and IME they are very nice, and express shipping via USPS is available.

---

Back in the saddle!

Thanks for that link. Im cheep in genral but if there is a signifcant possiblity that I will recieve unhealthy or small cuttings (I really dont want small nana petites) then ill go with aquairumplants.com they have the petites, for more but I will trust nowhereman's recomendation on the 'whats your favorite store thread' Ill place my order soon so I can actually have something alive in my tank

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

Second question first:

I have learned for people here about HC, but the particular member that comes to mind hasn’t been around in a while. I would suggest you create a separate thread in the Planted called something like “looking for HC”. It might not bring anything but it can’t harm either. Did you search on Aquabid?

Nana growth:

Ssssllllooooowwww

I seriously doubt that you would be able to make 2 out of 1 within 6 months. If I remember that right then they produce maybe one leaf per month. Leaves can live for a few years. In order to split the rhizome you need to have a sufficient length for both new plants otherwise the one with a very short rhizome will die.

Also, we just yesterday discussed shrimp in tetratech’s thread and one trusted member gave us [link=This Link]http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/71/sort/2/cat/4/page/1" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]. Although shrimp are not your concern, it is worthwhile looking at the second comment in this link. On the other hand, you could also create a specific thread asking people for their experience with this store.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey all,

For the anubias nana petite I have a question or two. I found that azgardens has some of these plants but they are on the 'limited supply' list and I think i will probably buy about 8 tomarrow. The price for these is 4.50 US, which is about 30% less than the price ive seen on a few other sites. These are supposed to be quarter sized plants, so Im guessing they are reasonably mature. Do any of you know how quickly these grow or have any idea about how long it might be till I can split some of the rizomes in order to get more of them. I cant really afford as many as I think i will use so im concerned as to weather or not I will be able to have mabey 20 in less than 6 months? I dont really know how slow 'slow growing' is with plants as the rest of them, fertalized, high light, and co2 seem to grow extreemly fast. any imput would be great.

Also, if any of you have any HC or know someone who does i would be gratefull to hear as I havent found any that is available. Because i think it will take time to grow out the nana petit I am fine with starting with a relativly small amount of the HC and would be willing to pay for more than shipping.

Thanks, Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Perhapse I should have said that i plan to mimic design elements. Planting patterns, rock arrangment, overall compostion. I wont be outright coppying a tank if for no other reson than I havent seen that many small tanks. But the mimicry will hopefylly prevent me inadvertantly mixing plad with pocadots. Anyway, I am looking for rock sources at the moment to see If i can find anything intersting. I had a minimally sucessfull rock hunt yesterday and expect I could do better.

Chaos

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 09-Jan-2006 16:24

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

Constructive criticism is always good, even in an area where one thinks he/she is a master .

Yeah, I certainly was implying that I don’t like this wood too much as it seems to big for me. But who am I? I am just one of the scapers that try to do the right thing without knowing exactly what the right thing is. No matter what you decide on doing now, there is a good chance that you will change your mind a few months down the road. For me personally the setting up of a scape is at least as much enjoyable then the display of the completed picture. Once all is said and done I am rather certain that I will get bored and the urge will arise to do something else. Given that I have a rather limited space available for my tanks ( aka wife says “No More” ) I can already see that I will redo my tanks, even if they don’t need it.

About the mimicking of an existing design (may it be a tank or a landscape etc): I read the suggestion that people that are new to “Nature Aquariums”, aka Amano Tanks, should try to mimic one of his existing layouts before attempting do design a tank on their own. While this certainly has some advantages, like knowing the plant selection, light requirements, etc, I can see a few traps in it as well. First comes to mind the fact that a “copy” is rarely as good as the original and as such would create a disappointment for the designer. Actually, the only way a copy could satisfy me is if it would be better than the original. Second, when copying a tank, we rarely know what happened before and after the photograph was taken. When you look at a series of Amano shots in which he shows a few tanks over time you can see that things change quite dramatically. Sometimes one species takes over almost the entire scape, and although still pretty it demonstrates the dynamics of plants themselves. A copied tank might look just like the picture but would potentially require a lot of work (if even possible) to be maintained.

I know that none of the above mentioned might be applicable to you, but I thought it can’t harm if I write down my thoughts ,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,

I suppose what I was really wondering was if those comments were softer versions of 'I think that pice of wood is a bad idea.' I know this isnt allways the case with people but I like to think I am good with taking criticism, particularly here as I know very little about the topic and dont mind hearing 'you probably bought the wrong piece of wood for this tank.' Id just like to know now so that I dont figure it out in a few months and want to revamp everything, which is possible anyway.

If its to be rock only, it wont be the rocks I have now, it would need to be ones which are visually more powerfull. Ive been actually reading up on the aquascape design and am trying to make this a good first try and expect that I will mimic other things I have seen If i can to get a good start on this tank.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

This cause Bensaf to add: “The wood as tetra pointed out is very thick”

But then I went on to say it could work with the right layout and plants. As tetra pointed out the Anubias and Mosses will soften it up.

I'd avoid the rock only idea, there's a differnce between a mound and a lump

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Chaos,

Hey, Rock Valley is copyrighted

Not really though

Glad you like it, and even better that you have a source for rock near by. Do you know about the vinegar test to see if the rock is leaking calcium? Drop some standard vinegar on the rock and if it bubbles a lot then this is what the rock contains. That would most likely not be good for your tank as it creates an upswing of the ph. In itself not too much of a problem, but would potentially create a major change in ph during water change for sure. What is you “normal” ph anyway?

HC can make you lose your hair because it has tiny roots that need to be anchored in the substrate. If you ever tried to anchor Glosso then you might know what I mean, just double or triple the effort that it takes. Sure it can be done though, as many people have that plant (they all are bald ).

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LittleFish,

Turns out we have the same idea about the rock. I was actually looking at your rock valley thinking that I could probably pull of something similar. Im going to go to a 'mountian' near where I live which basicly a colection of huge rocks and I think ill be able to find something visually interesting which will fit in the aquarium.

As for the HC I doubt Ill lose too much hair, Im 21 and it is unlikley that I am geneticly predisposed to loose more than a little of my hair. On that note, why is this plant supposed to be stressfull?

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

I know it is very hard to make a judgment of how something will look when planted while there are no plants there yet. But I will try anyway .

I think that the center area is expanding too far to the sides, in particular to the left (similar to what tetratech said). I try to imagine a layer of about 2 inches of plants all around the rocks and I think it will look too strong and voluminous. Like having the large open foreground and then some big chunk of something blocking almost the entire tank width. This, I think, will make the tank look much smaller then providing open spaces left and right where the observer can lurk around the mound and hash some of the depth. Do you know what I mean?

But, as said in the first sentence, it is hard to imagine how it will be once plants are actually in there .

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi all,

Little Fish- I looked and you were right about the composition on the left, I think I can fix it easy enough but we will see.

Bensaf- Ill accept no substitutes for what ever plants I decide on. I think im getting a little to ansey (sp?). Too fidgetey, I mean. Ill try to head towards a zen aquarium planning thing where I dont feel the desire to put anything I can in the tank just because it is near by.


For my education, can you guys point me to a website on amano. The one i keep seeing is a magazine and im not sure if thats the best place to see his stuff, or other aquariums. Mabey there is a site that has a bunch of good ones I can look at? that would be intersting.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

I will give you the link if you promise not to give up on your new tank

His tanks can be very intimidating at first and can make one feel a total loser

[link=Here]http://www.adaeuro.com/gallery.asp" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] it is

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ill take a look, my last tanks had blue or rainbow rock substrate, plastic plants (2 or 3 each), and a rock or two. This will be a much better aquarium than those no matter what, so ill keep my chin up.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

On second thought I do feel like a total ameature again. Oh well...

Im not going to give up, i promise.

Ill have to look at these more, but I think you might be intersted in what this reminds me of. The Bonsai in the links below are very simmilar, I think, because of the way they are themselved a world in mineature. A bunch of the tanks look like mile wide scottish landscapes with all the grasses and great craggy rocks. Ive got to say both those tanks and the bonsai achieve the same effect and are extreemly impressive, imo.

http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/assets/images/photos/btphotos/3p2.jpg

http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/assets/images/photos/elmsonslab.jpg

Chaos

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 07-Jan-2006 18:58

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Bensaf,

Blyxa Japonica is the same, as I'm sure tetra will testify. I bet he's glad he made the effort to get that plant rather then "settle" on something else.
Yes, outstanding addition to the tank. As long as I can keep bba off it.

Chaos,

As LF said it's tough to look at those pictures and not feel well "small" but it's really takes alot of doing to get to that level. There are alot of small detail both in and out of the tank that you will learn and you will not know that until you do. Amano is also a photographer first and he get's the most out of his creations back by staff, equipment, etc.

Your original mound was good. It's not cemented in, it can be changed as you will do anyway from time to time.

Not to put any pressure on, but remember "What we aquascape in life, echos in eternity" - Maximus Decimus Meridius

Last edited by tetratech at 07-Jan-2006 14:01

My Scapes

Chaos,

Ideally rock which is bulky looks better with thinner wood piece, with that said it doesn't mean it can't look really good with what you have. It's amazing how different the mound will look with green on it. Some of that wood can be softned with the mosses so it actually looks like another plant and not wood (moss, riccia. Riccia would look nice, but definitely more work.

I was more concerned about how close it came to the glass than the thickness of the wood itself. In my setup, ideally I would have have thinner branches, I just haven't put in a tremendous effor to find them.

My Scapes

You can’t say I didn’t warn you, Chaos

Yeah, he has that effect on most of us. When you have some spare money to waste, or your birthday or such is coming up, go to the Big Al’s website and order the 3 Amano Nature Aquarium books, they are worth the money. Even if it makes you green with envy there is a lot to learn about plants and his general philosophy. It is not really a coincidence that you are reminded of Bonsai trees.

Amano is not only also a photographer, he used to be a professional bicyclist as well.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hello all,

I have identified another plant which looks really attractive for this tank, though probably hard to get :Hemianthus callitrichoides. I liked the watercolor of Monosolenium tenerum much better than the photographic version and probably wont include it.

Also, who among you think I could do better for hardscape without the wood I presently have? I like the idea of doing the mound and using low lying plants but I am not sure about the wood now and think the tank could be much better visually with a rock only arrangement or with a wood if it were much thinner? What do you guys think? Im just trying to really consider this all the way through, envisioning the tank as little fish suggested.

Thanks all, Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

Regarding your question if I (we) like your current wood selection:

My answer was given in my first entry to this thread: “Your selection of wood appears to be rather massive”
And tetratech followed up with: “but I do agree with littlefish that it's big”
This cause Bensaf to add: “The wood as tetra pointed out is very thick”

Well, I guess you get the point .
Rocks alone can work very well too, but I would say that you need different ones than the ones you have right now. I could see something like half of my “Rock Valley” as a center piece, reaching to at least 2/3 of the tank height. If you don’t know what I am talking about then go to my 125G log and look at the first 2 pages. There I position this group with the help of my FP buddies (first I had it flatter). If rock only is not good then thinner wood would certainly help to maintain the impression of a “large” small tank.

About the plant you selected, often simply referred to as HC:

Very nice and the smallest foreground plant available that forms a carpet. I don’t know how much hair you have on your head, but if there is any it will for sure be a little less after you planted these dwarfs. I don’t have this plant personally, but under the right conditions it is just gorgeous.

Hope this helps at least a little,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Good point about the anubias, bensaf. I guess if I'm too cheap to spring for anubias petite, I'm DEFINETELY too cheap to experiment with Downoi, no matter how beautiful it is...

---

Back in the saddle!

Chaos,

That is exactly how tetratech had his CO2 injected for a while. Albeit it wasn't DIY, he neverthelss stuck an airstone tight in the filter intake (he can tell you more about that).

I have my Power Reactor right next to the filter intake and most bubbles are sucked into the filter. I have no problems so far and my CO2 ppm is just fine.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have a question about how that works. It may not be an issue in a canister filter but how would it work in a HOB filter? Wouldn't the CO2 be lost as the water returned back to the tank? What would be the best way to inject CO2 with a HOB filter? A glass diffuser? I am thinking about getting the Hagen ladder and CO2 kit for my 25g, and wondering if this would be an ok way to go. The tank won't be high-light ever, it may eventually be almost 2 wpg if I get the new hood I want to get. So I don't really need huge amounts of CO2 going into the tank do I?

Oops, that was more than one question, I'm just so glad to be able to be back on the site! I still have the shakes of withdrawal from yesterday. Don't ever do that to me again!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hey krib,

That's just what I do for my tank. See the pic below, left side.



The glass diffuser is right under the outflow of the HOB filter. Bubbles go up then get knocked back down into the tank. By the time they get back to the surface CO2 has been diffused. I get better saturation this way than with my old reactor (same as LFs)

Tetra does the same now with an airstone and the spray bar from the canister filter. Works the same way, as long as there is force enough to knock the bubbles back down, and to distribute flow around the tank.

---

Back in the saddle!

Because the entire first camber is sponge would I be able to feed an air stone attached to diy co2 in there and place it in between two of the sponges and use that as a co2 reactor to get good difusion
LF,
I think Chaos wants to insert the co2 line right into the filter media itself and bypass the intake. I'm not sure of the physical setup of those filters I guess it's like an HOB. My only problem with that is the water coming back into the tank. If it's above the water level co2 will be lost. I think your better off doing what nowher and I do either with a glass diffusor, hagen ladder or airstone under the return.

My Scapes

Ill post a diagram if I can find one because its not like a biowheel hob.

Choas

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

So I don't really need huge amounts of CO2 going into the tank do I?

You need to be hitting 30ppm of Co2 regardless of light or plants. Any less and you are benefitting certain types of algae over the plants.

True you may need to pump less gas into the system to maintain 30ppm where there is low light or not many plants. But that's not same as thinking 15ppm will be fine where there is less light/plants.
Can you see the difference in the 2 situations ?

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hey all,

btw, how do you test the ppm of co2 ? I am fairly sure that it could be done by monitoring the change in ph between night when a bubbler is on and day when there is only injection, but im betting that there is a different method.

So my filter, depicted in the link below is about 3 inches deep and 13 inches wide and 13 inches tall. The green and red circles are the two possible co2 injection points, which seems most advantageous to you guys.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/10300/untitled.JPG

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

If this are the two options then I would say pick the one that is further away from the impeller, means the green one. Large bubbles at the impeller might damage it over time.

About how to calculate CO2: there are 2 parameters that one needs to consider for CO2 in ppm: one is the ph, the other is KH in German Degrees (roughly 17ppm = 1 degree).

Once these 2 values are known, all you have to do is to go to a chart like this one from Chuck Gadd (scroll down on page).

For example: in this chart, a ph of 6.6 and a KH of 3 degrees gives you 23ppm of CO2.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Check your KH before adding Co2. This is the buffer that keeps the pH stable. It needs to be a minimum of 2-3 degrees before adding Co2 otherwise the pH will drop extremely low and e to wild shifts.

KH can be increased by the addition of baking soda. If the KH is 3 or above don't touch it.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ok, ill look into it. Sounds about right though with the buffering. I was just wondering if there was a dirrect test for co2, but couldnt think of how to do it.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Hi,

I GOT PLANTS!!!! a few quick questions.

I did basic water chem of the tap water in my house

GH- 7 german degrees
KH- 4 german degrees
pH 7.4-7.6
N03- 0
NO4- 0
NH4- 0

Here are the plants ive got. I wanted to doubble check before I plant. I should plant all the anubias roots up untill 1mm before the risome. For the HC. Should I just cut it into small pieces with siccors and then try to bury how much of the root??? Also, fyi i got kent freshwater pro plant to supply basic nutrients for the moment.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0048.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0049.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0051.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/10833/DSCF0052.JPG

I will be planting in about 4 hours and I would love any advice you guys are willing to give before then. Pictures will be up soon of the planted stuff and unless i am forgetting a reason against this i will have 2 fish tomarrow and biospira in then too.

thanks all, Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Sorry, no experience with HC, but what you said seems about right - just bury the roots. Tweezers may help.

As for the anubias, anchor with the roots, but try not to get any gravel over too much fo the rhizome. You may even want to tie the roots to a small stone with green thread. it's up to you.

great looking plants BTW

---

Back in the saddle!

Is it just the photo or are the Anuboas leaves covered in BBA ? The leaves look black in the photo.

If they are coated with BBA best to get rid of it before putting into the tank.

Dip the Anubias in a 10% bleach solution for 1-2 minutes. Dip them by holding them upsidedown by their roots. Try to have only the leaves in the solution and not the roots. Rinse thoroughly in tap water afterwards or soak for a few mins in water with some de-chlor.

The BBA will have turned white and will disappear completely in a couple of days.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ill check, but the anubias was grown emmersed (sp? out of water) so I think its just the picture. Thanks for looking so closely though,

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Hey all,

I have planted with relative sucess, Some of my squares of HC keep trying to escape. Still things are looking up and will be somewhat fishy tomarrow.

http://www.picshosted.com/v/10877/DSCF0055.JPG

more pics tomarrow

chaos


__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

The Anubias are fine. The tank pic is much clearer, the plants look in excellent condition.

I would plant the Anubias closer to the rocks though, have them play off one another visually. Maybe something planted between the 2 biggest rocks.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

chaos,

the tank really looks excellent. In a few weeks when the HC forms a carpet I'm sure it'll be stunning. You certainly seem to be on your way to a fine emulation of that type of design you were after.

---

Back in the saddle!

Chaos,

I agree with NowherMan6, it looks really nice and you were able to create your recent vision of the tank. Good job

I also agree with Bensaf that it seems like there is something missing between the 2 larger rocks. But this might have something to do with the angle from which this picture was taken. Maybe you can give us a few more shot from different viewpoints.

And one important thing: You will have to get a red permanent marker and draw a big X on the spot where you took this picture so all subsequent piccies, in which we will see the amazing growth, will be from the same position .

Have fun,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

Im going to have go to with a tape measure as drawing a red x on my faimly room carpet will bring the end of my ability to keep an aquarium in that room.

Ill put up more pics but that area right between the rocks is bare. I cant help not wanting to put all the anubias right there where it cant be seen. I am still thinking about using a grass in the back, something about 10 cm tall with a blade that has a little width and curve to it would be good. Some of this could possibly occupy this space.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

so my water seems to have cleared up compleetly. Also i changed the pH from 7.6 to 6.6 before introducing the lemons last night. The have been seeming skittish still and are spending a lot of time swimming against the currents on the side of the tank instead of hanging out in the middle. This might have been because it was bright in the tank and dark in that room so it was like being in a mirrored box. I will see how they do with a sunlit room.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

are spending a lot of time swimming against the currents on the side of the tank instead of hanging out in the middle

Have you considered that this might be a good sign? It seems to me as if they are having fun. Stressed out fish would not go to a place in the tank where they have to work hard just to maintain their position.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Swimming against the side of the tank is normal for schooling fish when first introduced to a tank. Not only do they like the current (most of these tetras and rasboras in the trade are from flowing water systems anyway, it's instinct for them) but new fish often see their reflections in the glass and think it's more of their own kind, so they try to school with their reflections. After a while they should calm down a bit, but I always saw it as them just trying to find more of their own kind in this new location. Hell, my yo-yo loaches still try to school with their reflections sometimes

Also, as a general rule, fish of all types tend to gravitate towards some kind of structure. rarely will you see a school hanging out in the wide open - it's always around something poking up, some rock or wood, or right at the outskirts of the plants - some reference point. My guess is they'll take a liking to your big rock at some point

---

Back in the saddle!

My krib was doing this one night, I have never seen her do that before but she really wanted to get to the 'new fish' she had found! Sometimes I think she wants to school and the barbs will let her 'school' with them as long as she obeys the rules. She puts up with this then decides she's "TOP FISH" and tells them all off. LOL! It's quite the thing to see. Even the SAE sometimes 'schools' with the barbs!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Hey,

It did indeed cross my mind that this was a good thing, but i wasnt sure. It sort of looked like they were trying to get out which is why I was wondering. Also I do know that I havent provided much protection in the way of physical shelter so it makes sense that numbers are most comforting at the moment. With the lights off they swim more around the middle then with them on so it probably does have to do with the reflection.

I chose this one spcific shop because of how healthy all their fish are. Its low trafic so they keep everything in good order. The lemons looked good, yellow sides, very bright red above the eye and active. I dont know if the two i have are mature enough to sex them, but if they are then I would say both are males. Mabey ill be able to get some ok pics of them. My digital isnt as versatile as I would like.

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

then I would say both are males

So you only got 2?

I guess you will up the group later, right? They like to be in a school, just in case you didn't know that.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Well, there only were two, but I planed on getting only two to begin because i was afraid that more might cause a signfiicant NH4 problem in a 12 gallon. Am I being too cautous?

yesterday tests showed about 0.1 ppm NH4 and 0.2 ppm NO2 so the biospira are doing their work.

The final population of lemons will probably be 8. the only other fish will be ottos (or some other maitnence fish)

CHaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Chaos,

I don't think you are too cautious, I just wanted to make sure that your plan is to up the group later.

I thought that you selected 2 because of cycling concerns, and that was a good move. I would suggest that maybe in about 10 days you add 2 more, and another 7 days later the next 2.

Have fun witht them,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok, cool.

Ill try to get pictures up tomarrow. They are obviously more comftorable now, as they are swimming seperatly a little now. All seems well

updates soon,

Chaos


__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Hello,

here are a few pics

http://www.picshosted.com/v/11368/DSCF0002.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/11368/DSCF0074.JPG
http://www.picshosted.com/v/11368/DSCF0080.JPG

You can see the fish and all. In the verticle one you can see the anubias is growing a new leaf. It was unopened when I planted. I also noticed a brownish algae growing on the one other anubias. this is pictured and I am not sure if it is growing specificly on this piece becasue this piece is probably dying ( i think it broke of a main piece and didnt take much risome with it)

Anyway things seem to be going well. NH4 and NO2 are both under 0.25 ppm. (I wanted to check though that the Dr. Fish (that on the logo) tests are accurate ones)

Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

Looking very clean, Chaos

The algea that you describe is visible in the first picture, right?

Some thoughts to it:

Brown algae are usually diatoms, little critters that live of silica which is often available in new tanks (from glass and substrate). When they amass some more they get a fluffier look, like dust bunnies. Harmless and will stop reproducing one excess silica is depleted.

On the other hand, it looks also as if it could be simply a layer of dust. Can it be that this anubias sits in a spot where the current isn't all that strong?

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hello,

Ingo, that was the brown algae I was wondering about.

I have a few questions I need help with:

1. There is a white thread, almost looks like spider silk comming off the top leaves of my anbias. Does anyone know what this is? I saw a thread about white thread but am not sure we are talking about the same thing.

2. Baby snail. Well I found one and assume that there are others somewhere. Is there anything I should do about this?

3. Plant growth, or lack there of. The anubias seem to be growing faster than the HC. While the anubias are only opening 1 leaf each I can see that they are growing and pearling (just tiney bubbles on the leaves). The HC however seems to be relativly unchanged. Assuming that I didnt do any damage or anything with cutting the carpet inot really small pieces I believe the problem must be nutrients. I have light, and enough of that. The only macro I can really look at is NO3, what should I try to have for that. Also, DIY co2 will be starting this week hopefully and I will ask questions about that on the tech tinkering board. I know 30 ppm is the goal for this. Is there anything else worth consider (should I consider that I am just feeling impatient with the HC?)

4. Green algae is beginning to take its place on the rocks and glass. its just a small amount but I was wondering for stocking the tank if I should get one of my ottos sooner rather than later. There has been little in the way of a NH4 spike so far, thanks to biospira im sure, and dont know if the tank is stable enough that the otto would be happy. Either way I expect to add 2 or 3 more fish in mabey 4 days.


Thanks all, Chaos

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

should I consider that I am just feeling impatient with the HC

Once CO2 is added it'll take off a bit more. Besides, plants don't usually explode as soon as they get planted - usually takes some time for them to put out roots and really get themselves in growing mood. Just make sure you're providing everything you can for them, as long as it's all there they'll grow well. CO2 is what's lacking now.

As for the algae and the oto - not sure, it's a tough call. The new tank and presence of ammonia may be tough on the guy, as will be the lack of friends and plant cover for that matter. Diatoms and a little bit of green algae are pretty normal at the start, just push through and get that CO2 going

---

Back in the saddle!

Hmm, i was wondering about the plant cover thing. The plan I have for this tank would not provide the ottos much of a place to go hide if they wanted to. Is there another animal which might be more sutiable?

__________________________________
- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -