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I saw this

Running your tanks around 2 to 2.5 watts per gallon is fine
as long as you add fertilizer. The plants will be able to
extract the carbon that they need from the organic
compounds in the tank.
However, once you hit 3 watts per gallon, the plants
cannot extract the carbon that they need in the quantity
that they need it from the organic compounds in the tank.
At that point you must provide the carbon in the form of
CO2. Generally speaking, DIY CO2 provided by a 2 liter
coke bottle(etc) will not provide enough pressure to force
the gas through a glass diffuser. You will need a
different method of getting the gas into the water, such
as a reactor of some sort.

in another post and my heart started to beat faster

I've got about 2.2 watts per gallon(29 gallon tank, 65 watt PC) on my tank right now. I am planning on having my current couple of long-leaved crypts(don't know exact species, were sold as randomly assorted.) some bacopa, some dwarf lobelia, water clover and possibly something else depending on what I can find that "fits" the plan I've got in mind, and what of the stuff I have right now isn't too covered in hair algae to salvage by the time I saved up the $300+ to do it. I was planning to get dry ferts and a co2 system for the tank(a bit over $300 doing it the way it was recommended to me, NOT including the cost of filling the co2 tank or keeping it filled.

Can I get away with JUST dosing ferts? Right now the setup is a HOB filter, schultz aquasoil(baked clay stuff marketed for pond baskets specifically, but I've read it's nearly as good as fluorite/ada/eco-complete but a lot less expensive) and 9 neon tetras(going to bump the school's size up one of these days), 6 ember tetras(omg! that was literally the ONLY time I have EVER seen them in the area! So I got a few. . . they're probably one of my favourite fish of all time ^_^) a plakat betta(similar story. have wanted one for a while, no one in the area sells them. so when I found one being sold as a female in walmart one day I kinda jumped on him even though I didn't have another tank for him. So far he's being a gentleman with the tetras) a few ottocincus, and 7 cories.

All of the planted tank forums I've seen say to use co2 also since with ferts and more than low lighting if you don't you'll just get algae growing. Especially if you were going to be making it "thickly" planted, like I was going to aim for.

[url=http://dragcave.ath.cx/viewdragon/bNFR][/url]

Hi,
I think I've seen that quote before.

Once you start stocking that tank with plants, and small
fish you will need to add fertilizer (nutrients) to the
tank as the fish can't contribute enough waste products
to decay and provide food for that large enough plants.
Add to that the fact that different species of plants
absorb different nutrients at different rates and you
can see why one needs to add nutrients to the tank.

One of the big ones is Carbon. You can add carbon to the
tank in either a liquid form (SeaChem's Flourish Excel),
or in the gas form. SeaChem's Flourish Excel seems to
be perfectly fine with some plants, and will cause others
to yellow and die. The gas form is CO2 and that molecule
is easily broken down by all the plants and the Carbon
is absorbed. Gas can be either DIY or purchased in a
bottle. DIY is messy, smelly, and can be a real pain.
You will be constantly mixing, washing, prepping bottles
and repairing leaks. THE expense with the bottled gas is
the attachments. The dual stage regulator, reactor, bubble
counter and bottle of gas are what costs the money. Once
those are purchased, a 5 pound bottle of gas lasts me for
6 months and only costs me $9 and some change to recharge.

As to what you can "Get away with," that depends upon the
density of the plants (how many) the size of the tank, and
the quantity/size of the fish. You must also realize that
the light is the engine that drives plant growth, and the
Carbon is that engine's fuel. If you use high wpg light,
then you must provide the necessary carbon or the plants
will yellow and die off.

To me, it would be best to lightly or moderately plant the
tank with an appropriate mix of fast growing stem plants
and slow growing plants and save your $$ till you can
afford the higher wpg light, the nutrients, and the bottled
gas system and then do it all at once.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Ah, see, theres where I start to run into issues. When I FIRST set up my 60 gallon as a planted tank, all I was told was to just toss the plants in. Nothing about them needing higher light, or co2 or extra ferts. Was told that the fish would provide all the plants needed. Oops. So I spent a good bit of time/money to get a nicer light fixture and getting a completely different substrate to see if the plants were better and was getting black brush algae(plus in my 60 I never really could get the scape to look good to me) so I got my different fish for that one, and got a 29 to have as my community tank and traded my lights for a smaller fixture.

So I've got the lights, and was going to be doing dry ferts since they're a lot cheaper than the liquid ones. And was going to get the co2 system because I thought I had to have one. And because I'm assuming it is a lot cheaper in the long run than excel.

But back to the original, with just 2.2 watts of light, if I am adding ferts, do I really need the co2? I've got everything BUT that and the better ferts(using up the rest of my seachem, since I wanted to use the dry stuff as it seems easier/less expensive) The lighting is just moderate, and I want to stick with that. Also, I'm sure that with the 15 tetras, 7 cories and single betta that I'm pretty much maxed with fish, other than just adding a few more tetras.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/Gilraen_Took/?action=view&current=tocopytank.jpg

That's the tank I want to imitate. Only with different plants. A different bottom cover, different stems and since it looks like he is using anubias for the little "hedge" and I'm too impatient to let that grow out, the lobelia instead. Doesn't Have to be that thick in the tank, but I do want to get a good bit of cover for the smallr fish to feel comfortable with.

Thanks

Edit: The betta is being moved out. I just looked over and he was chasing a few of my neons. Oh well, a 5 gallon to himself shouldn't be anything for him to be mad about.

[url=http://dragcave.ath.cx/viewdragon/bNFR][/url]

Hi,

"But back to the original, with just 2.2 watts of
light, if I am adding ferts, do I really need the co2?"

No, you probably do not. With plants, they can break the
organic compounds down and extract what they need. It is
a slow process and in some cases requires a bit of "work"
on the plants' part to do it. With 2 watts or less,
the plants are not being "driven" by the light and they
can extract what they need at a more "leisurely" pace.
When you have "high" light (generally considered 3+wpg)
then the light is driving the plants at a
higher metabolism rate and the plants cannot extract what
they need that fast. Adding carbon at that time is
necessary, and the CO2 molecule is easier for them to
manage than an organic compound.

Depending upon the waste output of the fish, in theory,
you should be able to have the fish provide most of what
plants need (nutrients). Some are not available such as
Iron. To over come that, we use a substrate that is iron
rich, a clay either laterite, or Flourite. For tanks with
very few fish, such as the Amano show tanks, they use a
time release substrate that contains all the nutrients
that a plant needs. However that substrate is generally
only good for a year, at the end of that time it has
released all of the fertilizer and becomes next to inert.

"Being impatient" is the last thing someone wants to be
with a planted tank. Plants just don't grow fast enough
for the eye to see. It might be better to satisfy that
impatience by having a tank of African Rift fish
(for instance) and soothing (transferring) that
impatience by watching the moving fish.
Many times "impatient" people
with planted tanks are always moving things around,
tearing plants up and stuffing them from one place to
another, constantly trying "new looks." This is, over all,
bad for plants and disruptive to the maturation processes
of the tank. IMO, once one establishes a tank, one should
wait at least three months for the plants to settle in,
the fish to acclimate, and the tank begin to age, before
one tears the scene apart and tries again. There are stages
that a tank and plants go through, and in my 55 it took
about a year for it to mature.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

It wasn't so much impatience with my last tank. It was that I had gotten a LOT of amazon swords for it and LOVED the way it looked. Then posted some pics on the forum that told me that you really have to have co2 addition and was told that they'd outgrow the tank. So I sold all of those and moved everything. Well, that looked like garbage(even after it grew out it would have. Don't think I've got pics anymore ) so I moved it all again. Still didn't get a good scape. . . And missed having big "puppy dog" fish. . .

That's why I just have it kinda bare right now until I figured out what to do with my scape, but I saw that picture on another forum and nearly started to drool over it. With my different choice of plants I can make it "my" scape, and still have the same look to it

Then again, I've got an excel question too. Since it seems like a few people use it on smaller tanks instead of co2. My tank is small enough that if I got a 2 liter bottle it'd last me nearly 2 years, if my math is right(1,000 ml=1 liter, right? I haven't studied ANYTHING related to metrics. . . Middle school 10 years ago? Divide that by 3, since it is 1 ml per 10 gallons, and the tank is right at 30 gallons, and my calculator gives me about 666 days. Or if I used it every other day 1332 days. Wow!) Just to give the plants that boost of carbon, and to have a LOT less expensive start up cost. Probably be more expensive in the long run, but over time instead of all at once. Which I can handle.

Edit: to make it a bit clearer, I know that you're supposed to add a bit extra after a water change to get it back to to the normal level in the tank, so it won't last the entire couple of years, but it'll still last quite a long time.

[url=http://dragcave.ath.cx/viewdragon/bNFR][/url]

Hi,
Interesting dilemma!

With "Big puppy dog" fish, most will not tolerate plants
and either tear them to pieces, eat them, or up root them.
Drift wood with Anubis attached are just about the only
plants that can handle that abuse.

Swords are considered to be "heavy root feeders" gathering
most, if not all, of their daily nutrients from the
substrate. They also like iron, so a substrate such as
Flourite is also recommended. They do grow! Three nice
swords can turn into plants each with a 6 inch base
and runners that extend all over a tank.
The "trick" is to leave the
runners alone and just guide them around the tank. Every
so many inches, a new plant will bud and start to grow.
Hold the bud down to the gravel and it will grow roots into
the substrate and begin a new plant. When that plant is
4-5 inches tall, then snip the runner on either side of
the new plant leaving about a half inch of runner on either
side, and sell it or move it to a new tank. In other words,
get some return for your investment.

Swords will live in light that is about 1.5 wpg and
thrive in light that is around 2 wpg or more. Carbon
in some form will help. With Swords, I'd use CO2 rather
than the liquid form of Carbon.

Personally, I'd use the liquid form of carbon in tanks
up to about 30G, for me that would be the cut off and for
30 (29)G tanks or larger, I'd use CO2 gas.
Note, that some plants don't seem to "appreciate" the
Excel, and will yellow and die off when that product is
used. I don't know why.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--