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I'm at a point where I'm considering breaking down my entire tank. This grey slime is really getting to me. Here's a pic of it on my hygrophila sunset.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/419863986EtyGWT

You could really see it in the upper left corner swaying in the current. It does not appear to be thread algae and when I take the gravel vac it comes right off and the leaves look perfectly healthly, but it comes right back.

My parmaters right now are Ph 6.6, kh 3, nitrates 20. I'm using 92 watts 11 hours, 192 watts 5 hours. Dosing kno3, flourish potassium, flourish trace. I have eco-complete as a substrate. The tank has been established almost 2 years and I have been fighting this for the last 2 months.

Just had another thought this tank is about 11 feet away from strong afternoon sun via a sliding glass door. I know it's a long shot, but could this be the problem?

Last edited by tetratech at 11-Aug-2005 13:49

Last edited by bensaf at 12-Aug-2005 01:40

My Scapes

Hi Tetra,
I'm not sure that I see "Grey Slime." Instead, I do see
hair algae, and lots of it. It could be agravated by the
sun at this time of the year streaming in through the
sliding glass doors. Some Black Construction Paper around
the side facing the doors should take care of that.

Depending upon how well planted that tank is and how stocked
it is with fish, you may NOT need to dose at all. Dosing
is done when using regular gravel, in a "new" tank ( roughly
a year or less in age.) Dosing is done when you have
accellerated plant growth by driving them with higher than
normal lighting ( 2.5 wpg for low light plants, or 3+ for
high light plants, etc.) or when injecting CO2 to spur plant
growth.
Dosing when not needed, or with the wrong nutrients, simply
sets a banquet table for algae and they chow down and grow
like weeds.

Check out this site for the types of algae, what causes it,
and how to eliminate it.

http://www.otocinclus.com/articles/algae.html

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 11-Aug-2005 18:04

Last edited by FRANK at 11-Aug-2005 18:06

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Looks like more than one type of algae to me in the pic.... possibly green spot on the glass, hair/beard, maybe even a bit of BGA thrown into the mix with the grey slime-ish stuff.... not surprising, most of the time you'll have more than just one algae at any given time.

Did you post about this on another forum? If you did I think the advice given there was pretty good. Just get your tank balanced and everything where it should be and it should correct itself.

If you have room to get some otos they would probably have a nice feast.

Looking at your sunset hygro I'd say you need some more iron....btw where did you get that? I really like the look of sunset h. polysperma.

Getting your pressurized CO2 will help too of course.

Last edited by trystianity at 11-Aug-2005 18:20

Frank:

I didn't think thread algae came off with a gravel vac. This stuff comes right off with vac or by touching and it has a slimy feel. I have a bunch of otos and dwarf plecos but the don't really bother with this stuff.

Trys:

My parameters right now seem good co2 20, ph 6.6, kh 3 and I'm still getting this stuff. Actually when you get this stuff off the plants they actually look very healthy. The "Sunset" as from a lfs on Long Island.

My Scapes

Warning: Very long post coming up !!!

Tetra,

Here are a few clips from an article that I mentioned to you in a another post.

Grey slime may appear as upward growing strands, as a coating on the edge of a leaf, and as what looks like floating mucus. It can pearl heavily and with its rapid growth, can totally smother a plant. When disturbed, this cyanobacteria disolves into a greyish haze in the water.

Grey slime is induced by chronic nitrate shortage

It is relatively difficult to combat once present, as raising nitrates to proper levels rarely works.


Prevention is the best medicine, so a good nitrate test kit and adequate fertilization go a long way.

If it does show up, there are not many ways to get rid of grey slime. The most effective method is to do a blackout lasting about four days. Doing that in conjunction with a diatom filter and several large water changes definitely helps.

A final option that does not work as often is to totally rescape and clean out the tank. It's somewhat of a mystery as to why that works, but it may be that it shocks the slime in some way.

There's some options there for solutions. One is the teardown you mentioned. I can't really make any comment about the solutions as I never had any experience. One thing I will say (and my comments below will explain why further) is that a teardown at the moment is probably not going to be worthwhile. You need to get a few things in place for a good restart before you do any teardowns.

As we should all know by now, getting rid of algae is one thing. Understanding why the algae appeared in the first place and knowing how to prevent it is the key to real success.

Can you understand why this algae appeared in your tank ? From our lenghty correspondence over the past weeks, I can !

So lets get into that rather then focus on how to get rid of it. I'm no good at suggestions for getting rid of algae. Never had enough of the stuff to learn how to get rid of it. But I have learned how to keep it away.

Before I go any further, please take what I'm about to say in the spirit in which it's intended. I'm not getting at you in any way, or telling you you messed up. I'm just going to give you some tough love.

My parameters right now seem good co2 20, ph 6.6, kh 3 and I'm still getting this stuff.

This kind of statement is part of the problem. You see they are only some of your parameters, not all, so they only give part of the story. You need to the see the bigger picture.

I've been answering a lot of your questions, and have always been quite happy to do so, and will always be happy to do so. But lets look at the chronology for a bit.

First issue was when your nitrates bottomed out. I would be quite certain it was at that point that this grey slime got a foothold, it may have been invisible but it was there. Unfortunately the adiition of KNO3 probably came a bit too late.

You may also have been short of PO4, so the subsequent addition of NO3 may not have been as beneficial as it could have been.

Then you had problems with the Co2, the sudden drop in Co2 output which led to a pH swing and the Cardinal problems. Unstable Co2 is great for bringing on algae. Either consistently low or consistently high will suit the plants more then the algae. Stability is important. If you choose a co2 method keep it consistently high, if you choose a non Co2 method keep it consistently low by not doing water changes.

Then recently we found the liquid fert you were using was a trace element supplement which was lacking in some micro nutrients, particularly FE.

So you can see there is a history of instability and lacking nutrients. This is the problem , not excessive nutrients, rather a lack of nutrients coupled with instability and inconsistency.

Rectify that and you are on the road to success.

Is this your fault ? No. I did exactly the same things when I started out. Took me about a year to figure out. I just lucked out and managed to avoid any major issues. A lot of minor ones but no real biggie. Who knows maybe I got lucky because I live where I live and have undrinkable tropical water coming out of my tap.

Why does this happen to you, me and so many others ? Simple. By focusing on the algae rather then the plants. This is what you're doing now and before. Why do I have this algae, maybe this nutrient is too high, or maybe this is too low, maybe if I change this etc etc. All that does is create more instability.

Forget about the algae. Ignore it. Pretend it doesn't exist. Don't do anything with your parameters to fight algae.Foucus only on growing plants The only tweak or change to your routine that should be made is one that is deliberately designed to improve plant growth. For whatever reason algae cannot live alongside healthy growing plants. It's that simple.

There a number of methods to achieve this. The one I outlined to you, Tom Barr's EI method, is reccomended as it's the simplest, most versatile, and pretty much foolproof method. It makes growing plants a simple, hassle free, problems free excercise. It works on the deceptively simple premise of ensuring ALL nutrients are available ALL the time. The 50% water change is simply a safety valve to make sure nothing builds up to toxic levels if you overdose. The water change % can be adjusted to suit. It's instant stability.

Using the method was a revelation to me. I suddenly realised just how bloody easy it is to grow plants. I then proceeded to kick my&nbsp;up and down the living room for wasting almost a year fiddling with this that and the other.

This is why I said earlier to hold off on the tear down idea. First get everything in place, have ALL your ferts and Co2 at hand so when you start up again, you can start up right.

If you're pressurissed C02 is not going to be in place for some time you may need to decide on what method to follow. You can try to stabilise the DIY co2 by an extra bottle or you can choose the non- C02 method until the pressurized unit is ready. The prinicple is the same, ensure all nutrients available, just with non Co2 your dosage is much much lower, and don't do water changes to keep o2 constantly low. It's easy enough to upgrade, switch on C02 and increase fert dosage considerably.

If you have everything in place, maybe try the blackout and waterchanges to kill existing algae and then immediately go into the EI routine.

Once the existing algae is dead/cleaned out , forget about it, focus only on the plants.

Spend that $12 dollars on KH2PO4, get a good liquid fert, that along with the Co2 and the KNO3and light you already have id the complete package.

Then keep it stable. Almost guaranteed no issues AND incredibly healthy plants. Don't knock yourself out. It's easy real easy. Get back to the fun and pleasure that made you want to start this hobby in the first place.

Do not give up or you will find me on your doorstep with a baseball bat

Ok I've run out of steam. Hope I didn't forget anything.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

You the man

I was about to send out another email titled "I know you guys are sick of my problems, but here's one more"

Tough love is definitely what I need. I was going to decide on removing the co2, lower ferts, light and see how I did, especially since most of plants right now are lower to mid light varieties, but this is not what I want in the long run. To worry about every plant I buy.

Although you covered everything, I do have a couple of variables that I want to through into the mix.

1. My tank is not aquascaped with plants shoulder to shoulder. I basically have a polysmera in the corner that is pretty big, difforimus kept short and crawling along a part of the back to front side, I have a sunset in the othe corner and I do have java moss on about 1/2 of the bottom. But bascially I have big open swim areas because I want to leave room for big schools of fish to swim. Maybe that is considered heavily planted, but does this scenerio make it easier for the algae to get a foothold.

2. My lights - Right now I have 2wpg 10 hrs and 4 wpg 5 hours. I would prefer 3wpg but I don't think I could do that without a different fixture. I could by a 55watt 22inch bulb, but I don't think that would be the way to go, since it would only cove a portion of the tank.
Even though the 4wpg is only on 5 hours a day is this making the problem more difficult.

If your ever in the New York area, I'll take you to the lakes here and you could get all the Cabomba you want

Last edited by tetratech at 12-Aug-2005 08:16

My Scapes

Tetra,

No probs. If I ever get to New York, you can forget about Cambomba and take me to a decent Irish Bar , deal ?

Both your questions have a common thread. Tom Barr calls it wiggle room. Basically more room to make mistakes without having a major issue developing.

With the lights I'd stick with 2 wpg - period. Especially if using PC bulbs which put out more lumens.
I've only got a touch over 2 wpg in my tank and can grow pretty much anything. As I mentioned before outside the US less light is the norm.4wpg is defininate overkill IMO.
Without getting into a spiel, I don't really hold with the plants/algae competing for nutrients thing, but they do compete for light.More light = more chance of algae. Having a bit less light, in the 2-3wpg region, leaves you more room to screw up and still allows you to grow pretty much anything.
Amano uses relatively little light , he does ok.

Plants the same. The more plants the more elbow room. Overdose, for example,and a heavy plant load will suck it up. More plants = more oxygen, more uptake of of organics, more beneficial bacteria. It's vital, especially at the start.
I would say yours is light to moderate. No way is it heavily planted.
You can still leave plenty of swimming room and be heavily planted. Use a concave design for example, with the back and sides heavily planted, and decent low foregorund coverage. That still leaves a big central swimming area. You may actually find your fish school more in this situation. Lots of plants make a fish feel secure, they know they have hidey holes to dash into if they sense danger, so are more likely to come out and show off. Fish schooling is nice, but fish interacting with the plants and the environment is way cooler. I could watch my Gouramis hunting thru the plants for bugs and swimming gracefully in and out of thickets all day. Watching Tetras swim back and forward gets tired much more quickly.

You can always remove plants once the tank is settled and established.

Last edited by bensaf at 12-Aug-2005 08:58

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

You got a deal on the pub. I know just the place.

I just shut off my second bulb that was to go on at 12:00.
The one bulb will give me just over 2wpg (2.1). The bulb is about 1 year old, but I believe Mr. Barr does not think this is an issue.

I actually have a second fixture in my closet that houses a 110watt cf bulb at 9325. 9325 vs 6700 I guess that's another thread. Anyone that fixture would give me 2.4wpg and I just have to replace the bulb.

I see what you mean about the plants. I guess from a visual standpoint, although a "green wall" looks nice against the back, I guess if that will is varied in color it takes away IMO from a school of fish swimming by, but i agree the interaction is very interesting to watch, because I have that with my rams.

As always you advice is very sound and easy to understand.


My Scapes